Shutting the door in my face

[swj99]

You can dress it up in, or hide behind as much company policy as you like, but the fact remains that while there are still passengers waiting to get on or off a train, it is clearly not ready to leave the station. To close the doors in circumstances such as these is just as wrong and unacceptable as it would be if someone deliberately closed any other door (railway related or not) when someone was either going through it, or attempting to go through it.

Attempts at justifying such a questionable practice as this fall flat if they are simply an explanation that it’s because of ‘company policy’ or ‘the timetable’, because this would just highlight that the timetable and / or company policy does not adequately reflect the reality of the situation, or satisfy the needs of the passengers involved. Perhaps it would be better, and safer, to amend the timetable or the policy until it does fulfill those needs. Trying to justify the unacceptable practice of dispatching trains with space left on them, by discounting the value of other people (in this case, referring to passengers as sheep, or stupid), or suggesting that it doesn’t matter because there will be another train along soon, is ridiculous and creates a self feeding cycle. Taken to it’s logical conclusion, this could result in trains running around the network with spare capacity, purely because of a flawed belief that it’s more important that they be seen to run on time according to a somewhat optimistic or unrealistic timetable, than it is to actually serve the needs of passengers by allowing them to board these trains.

Going into London all the passengers want to be in the front coach so they can be first off.............

I don’t. I’m quite happy to let the rush die down and apart from that, it’s only a few extra yards to walk the whole length of a train anyway.
In cases where it is a known problem that passengers congregate and attempt to board certain parts of the train, the TOC or station staff could facilitate their dispersal more evenly along the train.

 

[gswindale]

So, what happens in the case that the train is completely 200% full (think Rugby events at Twickenham)?

More people than can fit on half a dozen trains on the platform. Train is now packed and needs to depart so that another train can transport the next batch of passengers.

I would suggest that an announcement that the train is ready to depart would be sufficient; however the vast majority of the travelling public would pay no attention to it and continue to try & board the train. The train crew would be well within their rights to shut the doors to avoid further delays regardless of whether somebody is still pointlessly trying to board.

Passengers need to take some responsibility and think about where is best to board rather than where do they want to board.

 

[dcsprior]

Look at a line like the Victoria Line where a train can be right behind the one in the station. People still delay a train trying to squeeze on, even though another one is literally going to be there within 30-45 seconds!

The problem I find on the London Underground is that on the few occasions when its really busy I do choose not to try and get on the first train if there isn't room; then other passengers who've arrived just before the second train push their way on ahead of me. Then the same thing on the third train and so on. Eventually I run out of patience and I do make sure that I squeeze on to the train, even if there is another one 30-45 seconds away!

I arrive at the platform and clock that another passenger is already there (the one either side of me - can't really see/remember beyond that), I let them on to the train before me. I don't know if not doing it is a London thing - I've noticed the same at London bus stops, people don't seem to recognise what a queue is!

 

[jon0844]

There are no queues at bus stops in London it seems. Especially when buses stop at different places, or your bus stops behind the one you're waiting for so those further back rush to get on.

Even locally, I waited for a bus for 10 minutes and was the only person there. A minute before an elderly man arrives and when the bus came, he got on first!

I figured there was no point saying anything, so secretly hoped inside that he dropped dead!

 

[dcsprior]

Yeah, although I'd always let an elderly person on before me I would rather let them on than have them just push in front. But the majority of the people I see doing this are not elderly

 

[reb0118]

I arrive at the platform and clock that another passenger is already there (the one either side of me - can't really see/remember beyond that), I let them on to the train before me. I don't know if not doing it is a London thing - I've noticed the same at London bus stops, people don't seem to recognise what a queue is!

It's dog eat dog in London.

Although not in London, I remember waiting for the bus from Andorra to L'Hospitalet-près-l'Andorre. We had arrived in good time and were at the head of the queue but the bus stopped slightly behind us. The locals (though most were of North African appearance) just swarmed on so we ended up last. The locals were most impressed when I managed to bang about 20 of them in the head with my bag as we marched up to the very back of the bus to take our seats. Having "Big Stevie" an ex prop forward for Stew-Mell FPs at my back quietened any complaints. Scouse Al' who can say "alright" in the most aggressive fashion also came in handy.

Sometimes you just have to barge in. It's not nice, and to be fair not in my nature, but if you don't in some circumstances you will just be pushed to one side.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

You can dress it up in, or hide behind as much company policy as you like, but the fact remains that while there are still passengers waiting to get on or off a train, it is clearly not ready to leave the station. To close the doors in circumstances such as these is just as wrong and unacceptable as it would be if someone deliberately closed any other door (railway related or not) when someone was either going through it, or attempting to go through it.

This is where it becomes a massively grey area though. It can be rude, yes, but the person in charge of the doors has to think of the knock on effects of delaying the train. If you are working on a busy line in the peaks then you can be dealing with two or three minute headways even if the station in question only gets a train every fifteen minutes. Being late over a junction or allowing the express to get stuck behind the stopping service (or holding the stopping service to allow a late running express by) can all cause bigger and entirely preventable delays down the line and prompt complaints from passengers who probably have a bit more of a right to be irked about things.

If you want to catch a train, be on the platform before it is due to leave.

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, although I'd always let an elderly person on before me I would rather let them on than have them just push in front. But the majority of the people I see doing this are not elderly

I would also let a lot of people on ahead of me, but I generally prefer to be able to make that decision and kind gesture on my own, than have someone just turn up and push in front having made the assumption I would.

 

[moogal]

If you want to catch a train, be on the platform before it is due to leave.

Surely the whole point of this thread is that the passengers are already on the platform, and having allowed alighting passengers off the train, had the doors closed on them before they had the chance to board?

I've certainly had this happen to me a few times on LU's District line thanks to the narrow doors - by the time you've let people off the train the door bleepers can already be sounding.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Surely the whole point of this thread is that the passengers are already on the platform, and having allowed alighting passengers off the train, had the doors closed on them before they had the chance to board?

I've certainly had this happen to me a few times on LU's District line thanks to the narrow doors - by the time you've let people off the train the door bleepers can already be sounding.

Maybe it is, but speaking as somebody who has closed train doors from (literally) thousands of platforms over the years then I can attest that peoples interpretation of what having the train door "shut in their face" can vary wildly.

The example you give in the quote is clearly unacceptable, I can say hand on heart I have never done that to anybody. However people running down staircases or flying out of doors onto platforms while the doors are already in the process of closing is also seen as having the door slammed in their face by some, especially if missing the train now means they are going to be late for work or a meeting or a social engagement.

What do you do about that if it is your job to close the doors and get the train moving? On some lines at some times of day you would lose two or three minutes at every station and if you do that you are creating more problems than you solve.

 

[TUC]

Operators who take this approach run a real risk of greater problems. You can easily see the potential for a family to get separated with children left on the platform. I also know my wife ( who's visually impaired)?would say that it can be a scary experience to hear the doors closing on you if you can't see where they are, especially if your guide dog is just stepping on the train and your still on the platform. There's also just the simple issue of passengers who are trying to load several cases.

 

[Lockwood]

I was at Chichester a few weeks back, helping deal with an incident on the platform whilst waiting for my train.

When a train arrives, I leave the waiting room as it's stopped, and start quickly moving myself and my bike down to the correct door.
I have made eye contact with the conductor as I was doing this, glancing back to continue eye contact.
Got to the correct door to see the button de-illuminate.

Trudged back to the waiting room to wait for the NEXT one (I'd already missed one train whilst being helpful) where the platform staff were not that impressed that the conductor had done that to me.



I've had another Southern conductor direct me to board through adjacant doors to the ones I was going for.
As I was boarding, the hustle alarm starts, the doors close and I get hit in the arm with one door and my bicycle got hit by the other, right on the rear derailleur
Phoned SN about that, got told I would be contacted with more information. Called them back a year later (Something jogged my memory) and was told that they couldn't discuss it with me as they had taken actions to deal with it.

 

[swj99]

Operators who take this approach run a real risk of greater problems. You can easily see the potential for a family to get separated with children left on the platform.

Good point.
There have been many incidents in which train doors have been closed before passengers had either got on or off the train, some of which have been mentioned on here in previous threads.

Southeastern worker let untrained friend dispatch trains - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81783


Swansea Mum's Horror as Daughter is Left Alone - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79656


Missed train due to platform alteration (Was Despicable treatment by EC) - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77768


Prevented from boarding while doors closing - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70711

Clearly the issue of train doors being closed before passengers have had adequate time to get on or off trains, and the dispatch of trains, is a serious problem, which needs to be addressed.

 

[Flamingo]

I was at Chichester a few weeks back, helping deal with an incident on the platform whilst waiting for my train.

When a train arrives, I leave the waiting room as it's stopped, and start quickly moving myself and my bike down to the correct door.
I have made eye contact with the conductor as I was doing this, glancing back to continue eye contact.
Got to the correct door to see the button de-illuminate.

Trudged back to the waiting room to wait for the NEXT one (I'd already missed one train whilst being helpful) where the platform staff were not that impressed that the conductor had done that to me.

You should have been in the correct place before the train arrived, not still in the waiting room as the train pulled in. Platform staff should have been directing you there. I'd have locked the doors and gone as well, rather than delaying everybody everybody who had managed to get on the train in time.

 

[Lockwood]

If I'd not been helping the platform staff deal with a guy bleeding out all over the waiting room, I would have been on the platform...

I think I was the only person wanting to board that train.


The correct door is car 2 or 3, and the platform staff's normal answer for "Where will the bike door be" is "I don't know. Wait for it to come in."



Edit: Remembered some fun back in the days of the slamdoor...
Fareham platform staff being unwilling to acknowledge you asking them a question.
8 car Victoria/Brighton comes in. Luggage area in first unit locked. Move back towards the second unit, battling the crowd waiting for the Portsmouth service. Train departs whilst en route.
Next train comes in soon afterwards.
4 car.
Head back down towards that luggage area.
Train dispatched before I could make the distance.
Gave up and cycled home.

 

[Flamingo]

If I'd not been helping the platform staff deal with a guy bleeding out all over the waiting room, I would have been on the platform...

Fair enough, you didn't say that in your OP.

One gets used to seeing (some) people not making the slightest effort to sort their bikes out in a timely manner, and (some) platform staff not making any attempt to tell them where they need to be, and then the train is late waiting for everybody to get their act together.

I had one guy a few weeks ago, and after his repeated refusals to walk to the bike area ("I'm only going one stop, stop being a jobsworth, I'm not walking all the way down there"), to both me and platform staff, I locked the doors and left, it gave him an hour to get to the correct place for the next train...

 

[A-driver]

Good point.
There have been many incidents in which train doors have been closed before passengers had either got on or off the train, some of which have been mentioned on here in previous threads.

Southeastern worker let untrained friend dispatch trains - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81783


Swansea Mum's Horror as Daughter is Left Alone - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79656


Missed train due to platform alteration (Was Despicable treatment by EC) - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77768


Prevented from boarding while doors closing - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70711

Clearly the issue of train doors being closed before passengers have had adequate time to get on or off trains, and the dispatch of trains, is a serious problem, which needs to be addressed.

Oh Please, lets overreact a bit more shall we?!

4 examples of dispatch problems, one of which is nothing to do with shutting doors on people but about an untrained worker and another about a woman getting separated from her kids-dont think we know that was the fault of the railway there-and you call that a serious problem which needs addressing?!

Should I open a new thread every time I dispatch a train, or witness a train being dispatched, without incident? I can give you about 300 examples last week alone which easily trumps your 4 (well 3 as I don't count the first thread) examples.

Of course there will be the odd incident, nothing will ever prevent that as you can't plan for every single eventuality. But for every incident such as the one described here there will be hundreds, if not thousands, of un-eventful dispatches! Lets keep a sense of reality shall we?!

In the busy periods not everyone will get on, when there is a high frequency of trains arriving the doors need to be shut asap, even if people are still attempting to board. The only way to avoid it is to reduce the overall number of trains run during the peak to allow dwell times to increase. Either that or build more lines but the people's who's houses would need to be demolished may object to that!

 

[burgesst]

You should have been in the correct place before the train arrived, not still in the waiting room as the train pulled in.

By definition, I would WAIT in the WAITing room until the train was coming in. People use the waiting room because its cold or raining etc. As the arrival of the train doesn't usually coincide with automatic announcements or times given on screens, I would wait until I heard the train coming before leaving, rather than getting cold and wet on the platform, which would defeat the point of having the waiting room in the first place.

 

[Lockwood]

Ok, I had only said I was helping, not what I was helping with.

One thought I had was that the conductor sqw me approaching and didn't want the cyclist with bloodstained clothing getting on his train (Though the blue light unit on the bicycle should have explained I'd not just stabbed someone and tried to getaway on the train)

 

[455driver]

So you were concerned enough to expect the train to wait for you but not concerned enough to put the patient before your train home!

Is that about right?

 

[Flamingo]

So you were concerned enough to expect the train to wait for you but not concerned enough to put the patient before your train home!

Is that about right?

We weren't there, that's a bit harsh.

 

[Starmill]

So you were concerned enough to expect the train to wait for you but not concerned enough to put the patient before your train home!

Is that about right?

Who said it was his patient!?

That's it. I give up on you lot.

 

[455driver]

We weren't there, that's a bit harsh.

Maybe I should have put a winky smillie on the end of that, it does read a bit harsh (with hindsight)!

I wiil edit it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who said it was his patient!?

That's it. I give up on you lot.

At least I am polite enough to put my signature in the Queens English!

Maybe I should have put "some random bloke who had a leaky head" instead of "patient", touchy lot tonight are we not?

 

[Starmill]

Maybe I should have put a winky smillie on the end of that, it does read a bit harsh (with hindsight)!

I wiil edit it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


At least I am polite enough to put my signature in the Queens English!

Well fair enough... but what it wins in, um, 'englishness' it loses in impertinence!

In my defence, that was supposed to be an interim signature. Like somewhat childish my profile picture, try as I might, I cannot change it!

Just how off-topic are we going to get?

 

[455driver]

Just how off-topic are we going to get?

Give it another few posts and we will be miles off!

Winky added just to make it clear this is a joke and in no way meant to be serious!
Hope that is clear enough.:roll:

 

[Lockwood]

I was happy at that point to leave the patient to their own devices; the bleed was controlled, he was adamant he did not want to go to hospital, and the 999 crew that a taxi driver had called were happy to leave him in my care.

If I were putting my travel needs first, I'd have got on the first train that came along :P

It would have been nice if one of the platform people could have said to the guard "Let that guy on. He's saved us a load of aggro here."

 

[A-driver]

To be fair, being that he wasn't there as was on a train at the time, the guard didn't know that you were helping in the way you were-to him you would have appeared like just another late runner. Yes the platform staff could have told him but only if they saw in time. Once the bells have been rung its not easy to stop the train again.

Plus, on southern trains the guard can't open the doors so getting them re-opened once closing has started is quite a lengthy process.

 

[swj99]

In the busy periods not everyone will get on, when there is a high frequency of trains arriving the doors need to be shut asap, even if people are still attempting to board. The only way to avoid it is to reduce the overall number of trains run during the peak to allow dwell times to increase. Either that or build more lines but the people's who's houses would need to be demolished may object to that!

Sounds like a good plan. How silly of me not to have thought of that

If all the people who wanted to get on the train were allowed to do so, then surely it would follow that you'd need either less trains, or less carriages.
It seems crazy to have trains running around the network with space on them because people didn't have time to get on.

 

[Skoodle]

Passengers on London Overground in the morning peak all love to leave via the second door from the front at Shoreditch High Street, as it is next to the exit. This usually causes a bottleneck at the train doors and can take a while to be clear. Thankfully after I wised up to it I started stopping further along on the platform beyond the stop board. This means the passengers have to double back and actually walk more than 5 steps. Using the internal CCTV as soon as the last one gets off I can go, and have got the dwell time from 2 minutes to 20 seconds.

 

[A-driver]

Sounds like a good plan. How silly of me not to have thought of that

If all the people who wanted to get on the train were allowed to do so, then surely it would follow that you'd need either less trains, or less carriages.
It seems crazy to have trains running around the network with space on them because people didn't have time to get on.

Well if you have seen many peak trains you will know that they are pretty much full anyway do reducing the number of trains will cause more problems with overcrowding.

Plus the trains are all originating in different places so which do you cancel? You could end up reducing a lines morning service to a skeleton service which wi cause problems on that line.

Dwell times are very important to running the service in the peak- its why people stand there blowing whistles- to get people moving. The train must leave as close to time as possible or else the rest of the day suffers. If the service is frequent enough then just get to the station in good time and you will get in a train around the time you need.

Unfortunately you can't please everyone in the peak.