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Should We Leave the EU?
- Thread starter DynamicSpirit
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DynamicSpirit
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Meanwhile, Tony Blair, who thought that war in Iraq would be a jolly good idea, and is now busy collecting large amounts of currency from dubious characters across the globe, most recently several million pounds from the Kazakhstan government and its autocratic president Nursultan Nazarbayev, has found time to make pronouncements that it would be a jolly good idea for Britain to remain.....
The fact that Tony Blair appears to have had ethically dubious business dealings since he left Westminster is almost certainly bad, and a poor reflection on his business ethics. However, it doesn't seem particularly relevant to his views on the EU. Likewise, that the invasion of Iraq turned out so badly doesn't seem particularly relevant - since it's rather obviously such a different policy area, and no one had the benefit of hindsight prior to the invasion.
Well it is getting clearer which way to vote...
Boris, Gove, Trump and Putin all say Brexit, so we have to stay in.
What has Putin actually said about Brexit? Have I missed something?
I think Mr Johnson's comments linking the EU to previous European Empires were, on the whole, I'll judged and likely to create more heat than light in the debate, not least because whatever it's limitations, the EU was conceived with the best of intentions.
Never the less, I feel that some of the letters that I've seen in response in the media have been at least as ludicrous, for example the idea that Britain governing itself in the way that many other countries around the world manage to, is somehow a return to a dangerous nationalism, or the idea implied by our own prime minister, that leaving the institution will somehow plunge the continent into World War Three.
I think the debate needs to get back to the more mundane issues of Government and policy that affect the day to day operation of the country.
Never the less, I feel that some of the letters that I've seen in response in the media have been at least as ludicrous, for example the idea that Britain governing itself in the way that many other countries around the world manage to, is somehow a return to a dangerous nationalism, or the idea implied by our own prime minister, that leaving the institution will somehow plunge the continent into World War Three.
I think the debate needs to get back to the more mundane issues of Government and policy that affect the day to day operation of the country.
Agreed. This debate has been utterly moronic from the get go. I doubt many people have understood the issues. I doubt many people on either side have been given cause to consider their own opinion. The latest interlude from Boris is an argument that I'd expect from a 14 year old on Reddit.
In the Scottish Independence referendum in 2014, we had a proper debate and people across the country voted in record numbers. This is the complete antithesis of that. I'm less interested than I ever was. The debate boils down to questionable statements coming from both sides, all of them getting a response of "no". This exercise has been dull and misinformed, and seems to be more about egos than policies.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The Kremlin have reportedly said
The Telegraph said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Brexit-but-that-doesnt-mean-we-shouldnt.html
furnessvale
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Sorry to say but that is the most morally bankrupt reason for voting remain.
What some remainers are saying is that the EU will give us policies our own democratically elected government will not.
As long as the UK remains comparatively right wing that will please those voters. However, politics is a very fluid thing.
The same people (in many cases) have aspirations of a Corbyn victory in 2020. Will they still be as happy when the EU curbs some of Corbyn's more extreme ideas?
The right wing seems to be on the ascendency in Europe. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that the right will eventually form a majority within the EU and change its course? Will the same remainers still be as happy that policy is dictated by the EU?
Unlike the Scottish referendum, this really will be a once in a lifetime choice. Lets hope people make the right choice for the right reasons.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If they had voted leave it would have been a once in a lifetime choice.
Far be it for me to defend Putin, but I think those quote marks were for dramatic / satirical effect in that opinion piece! If they were actual Kremlin quotes, I think they would have been reported wider than one opinion piece in one paper. The fact is that Remainers have thrown Putin's name into the ring as part of the dead cat strategy that they are so critical of.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Any Kremlin comments would have been in Russian so it will depend how they've been translated and then how they've been reported. If you Google "Putin Brexit" it comes up with Daily Mail, Guardian, Independent, Daily Express, Ukraine Today, Newsweek and Bloomberg results. Pro-Putin Russia Today* also returns a result saying media claims in Britain are unsupported.
* They reported how Crimea was out-of-control before Russia intervened and that Russia needed to take control of it for stability.
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TheKnightWho
Established Member
Only if you assume the system with which the Conservative Party hold power is itself democratic. It very much isn't, however.
I don't doubt that lots of media outlets are using Putin's name in conection with Brexit. But they seem to be opinion pieces rather than news reports.
How on earth do you think that's right? Are you seriously suggesting that in the case of a "remain" vote, but 4 years of Europe going the way the scaremongers say, leading in 2020 to UKIP getting a majority, are you seriously saying they wouldn't have another referendum (or just leave regardless)? Are you seriously saying that the rest of Europe would use military force to keep us paying that money and letting people in?
furnessvale
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You do have a way of cheering me up! Thanks.
So you agree that this (the second referendum on europe for many of the elders of the country) will not be the last referendum on the subject if the public opinion changes significantly?
Given the conservative party is currently gerrymandering the constituencies to ensure they can return a majority in future even if they get less than their current 1-in-3 voting for them, coupled with an unelectable leader in Labour, means that we've got 9 more years of Tories in charge. It wouldn't take much extra UKIP support in 2020 to push another referendum and more uncertainty and more damage to the economy.
Maybe leaving would be better.
Oh this is fun. Today - for the Remain camp - we have George O gazing lovingly into former arch-enemy Ed B's eyes, joined by a LibDem whose left-of-centre principles were so strong that he sold off the Royal Mail to spivs and speculators, and that well-know protector of British consumer rights, Michael - ding.ding.anotherontimeflight - O'Leary, someone who once told us to get the hell out of the EU and that Brussels was the Evil Empire.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Oh this is fun. Today - for the Remain camp - we have George O gazing lovingly into former arch-enemy Ed B's eyes, joined by a LibDem whose left-of-centre principles were so strong that he sold off the Royal Mail to spivs and speculators, and that well-know protector of British consumer rights, Michael - ding.ding.anotherontimeflight - O'Leary, someone who once told us to get the hell out of the EU and that Brussels was the Evil Empire.
Your use of the phrase "spivs and speculators" in the context of the matter of your posting does tend to betray your political leanings somewhat...
backontrack
Established Member
Your use of the phrase "spivs and speculators" in the context of the matter of your posting does tend to betray your political leanings somewhat...
I'm sure that you're no stranger to betraying your political leanings, Paul.
Signed: Comrade Backontrack - Smash the capitalist order!
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Oh this is fun. Today - for the Remain camp - we have George O gazing lovingly into former arch-enemy Ed B's eyes, joined by a LibDem whose left-of-centre principles were so strong that he sold off the Royal Mail to spivs and speculators, and that well-know protector of British consumer rights, Michael - ding.ding.anotherontimeflight - O'Leary, someone who once told us to get the hell out of the EU and that Brussels was the Evil Empire.
When I read your post earlier I didn't realise that O'Leary had commissioned a pro-EU aeroplane:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-pro-eu-campaign_uk_5739c29be4b0b11a329f3c8e?
When I read your post earlier I didn't realise that O'Leary had commissioned a pro-EU aeroplane:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-pro-eu-campaign_uk_5739c29be4b0b11a329f3c8e?
Imagine the disdain of a Leave supporter walking towards that aircraft at the departure gate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Your use of the phrase "spivs and speculators" in the context of the matter of your posting does tend to betray your political leanings somewhat...
I don't have any political leanings Paul. For far too long the average Joe in this country - and you are one of them - have been shafted. Capitalism in its current form is becoming as discredited as socialism and communism. Capitalism is the only workable model, but it desperately needs reform so that it works for more people than it does at the moment.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I'm sure that you're no stranger to betraying your political leanings, Paul.
Signed: Comrade Backontrack - Smash the capitalist order!
My posting was made in response to that of Aldaniti and courtesy would be to let him respond to it, not a third party.
My second saying of the day is...
"When the doctor is talking to the patient, he doesn't expect the disease to chip in"
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Oh this is fun. Today - for the Remain camp - we have George O gazing lovingly into former arch-enemy Ed B's eyes, joined by a LibDem whose left-of-centre principles were so strong that he sold off the Royal Mail to spivs and speculators, and that well-know protector of British consumer rights, Michael - ding.ding.anotherontimeflight - O'Leary, someone who once told us to get the hell out of the EU and that Brussels was the Evil Empire.
OK first a fact check. Michael O'Leary described the European Commission as the Evil Empire. It was about the time that Ryannair was ordered to repay some subsidies, that had apparently been illegally given to the company, so it might possibly have been a 'heat of the moment' remark. Clearly, O'Leary has disagreements with the EU. Maybe he's changed his mind in some regards - I don't know. But at any rate it looks pretty clear that he's decided that we're better off staying in an imperfect organization.
As for the various other insults in your post - none of them seem to be remotely relevant to whether we should stay in the EU. Do you not have anything of substance that is relevant to say on the topic?
NoMorePacers
Established Member
Any newspaper tat on Brexit lately? I know the Daily Express has something on why we must leave EVERYDAY.
backontrack
Established Member
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
After some hunting around, it does appear that Putin has not publically said anything either way about a Brexit. There have been allegations that he would like to see the EU divided and would therefore be happy to see a Brexit, but that appears to be no more than speculation. Having said that, there appears to be some evidence that Russia is funding far right and nationalist groups in Europe, including the French Front National. It's hard to see why Russia would want to do this if it isn't to try to fragment the EU, and such a desire would be very consistent with much of his foreign policy over the last few years. That kind of thing is certainly suggestive that Putin would be happy with a Brexit, but obviously it's not proof.
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It's been like that since they ran out of Diana stories. It was 2011 apparently (seems like only yesterday) when they had this ridiculous "special edition" published. Highlights include a eurosceptics crossword, a naked Herman von Rompuy, a man dressed inexplicably in chainmail, and Peter Mandelson riding a train.
The Heil has an interesting article, which claims that you start to support "Brexit" (the most awful word ever coined) on your 43rd birthday.
Their inability to understand statistics aside, it does demonstrate that older people are more likely to support leaving the EU than younger people, and that there appears to be a correlation with age. This is quite interesting as to why this would be - many will try to correlate age with wisdom, others might suggest that this demonstrates a country that looks set to change its opinion over the medium-to-long term.
There's an interesting article in the Grauniad giving a case for leaving, but from a left wing perspective (although it quickly descends into a silly argument about voting "In" to annoy Boris).
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The Heil has an interesting article, which claims that you start to support "Brexit" (the most awful word ever coined) on your 43rd birthday.
Their inability to understand statistics aside, it does demonstrate that older people are more likely to support leaving the EU than younger people, and that there appears to be a correlation with age. This is quite interesting as to why this would be - many will try to correlate age with wisdom, others might suggest that this demonstrates a country that looks set to change its opinion over the medium-to-long term.
There's an interesting article in the Grauniad giving a case for leaving, but from a left wing perspective (although it quickly descends into a silly argument about voting "In" to annoy Boris).
As one who is most certainly not a "Brexit" supporter at the age of 71, I must be an exception to the "43 year old" scenario, as 28 years have elapsed since that stated date.
NoMorePacers
Established Member
That Daily Express 'special edition': WHAT WAS THAT!
It blatantly shows that they are UKIP-loving idiots.
So many lies it's unbelievable.
No wonder it was free.
Can't say enough.
It blatantly shows that they are UKIP-loving idiots.
So many lies it's unbelievable.
No wonder it was free.
Can't say enough.
PhilipRhayader
Member
It must be galling for you to discover that I'm only a few years younger than you and further to the left than you are to the right but I am totally in favour of staying in - and have been since before our original vote.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Not galling at all. I admire the personal decision that you have over this particular matter.
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