Should We Leave the EU?

[radamfi]

Let's face it, most of the arguments for Brexit are emotional. If you are only interested in economics and practicalities you are highly likely to vote to stay, especially if you are risk averse. If you vote to leave, you don't really know what you are voting for. Voting to leave is a gamble.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Let's face it, most of the arguments for Brexit are emotional. If you are only interested in economics and practicalities you are highly likely to vote to stay, especially if you are risk averse. If you vote to leave, you don't really know what you are voting for. Voting to leave is a gamble.

Blimey, at last we agree on something

 

[richa2002]

Let's face it, most of the arguments for Brexit are emotional. If you are only interested in economics and practicalities you are highly likely to vote to stay, especially if you are risk averse. If you vote to leave, you don't really know what you are voting for. Voting to leave is a gamble.

If valuing democracy and sovereignty is emotional then so be it. I would happily lose out financially if it meant those elected at the general election have full influence in the laws of our country. I wouldn't take financial gains, if there are any, over such fundamental principles.

Financial gains/losses can be argued until the cows come home with no definitive verdict. Democracy and sovereignty are plain to see.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If valuing democracy and sovereignty is emotional then so be it. I would happily lose out financially if it meant those elected at the general election have full influence in the laws of our country. I wouldn't take financial gains, if there are any, over such fundamental principles.

Financial gains/losses can be argued until the cows come home with no definitive verdict. Democracy and sovereignty are plain to see.

Valuing democracy and sovereignty doesn't put food on the table, it doesn't pay the mortgage, it doesn't pay rent, it doesn't buy your children clothes or shoes and it doesn't heat your home. Jobs will be lost if we leave the EU.

 

[Domh245]

Out of interest, what laws do people think the EU are interfering with, or hindering. A lot of directives actually make sense, and it is unlikely that they would be dropped in the even of a vote to leave the EU.

 

[47802]

Valuing democracy and sovereignty doesn't put food on the table, it doesn't pay the mortgage, it doesn't pay rent, it doesn't buy your children clothes or shoes and it doesn't heat your home. Jobs will be lost if we leave the EU.

Too right and that's what should be important to most people a lot of the rest of it is bull****

I think its also fair to say that if I lost my job as result of leaving the EU, I would seeking out some of those prominent Exit supporters and I wouldn't be too happy, people shouldn't be loosing their jobs because it suits the little englanders

 

[ComUtoR]

If you vote to leave, you don't really know what you are voting for. Voting to leave is a gamble.

I must admit. I find the constant belittling of those who chose to vote no quite insulting. Many are in the no camp and of those, many are quite intelligent. They are fully aware of the reasons why they will be voting no.

I find that those who are pushing the yes vote are doing so by constantly telling those in the no camp that they are not aware of the consequences and they are voting in ignorance.

If you cannot win a yes vote on its own merit then that itself shouts volumes.

Whether its emotional, financial, or politically motivated. Those who consciously make an effort to go to the polls and vote are very much aware of the reasons they are making their choice.
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Jobs will be lost if we leave the EU.

How many will be gained ?

 

[charley_17/7]

I've always had time for Boris, and respect him for (finally) making his side. On the other hand I think he is being quite clever, being the the right place at the right time.

Personally, I've always been pro-European and pro-Euro. Had we been involved from the start, we might not turned a 'blind eye' to the Greeks being allowed in, despite not meeting the criteria. After all, we learnt our lesson on Black Monday/ERM. But I do believe in making Europe better.

Where I live, and the company I work for, without being in the EU would have a massive effect on our skills, development, quality of life and whole existence. That is something I am not willing to jeopardise.

If England (because the rest of the UK is happy in!), wants out, then I want the South East of England/London out of England/the UK, aren't we subsiding the rest of the UK?

Its essentially the same argument, and, whilst perfectly valid, doesn't work in reality.

 

[radamfi]

Some people may be looking forward to living in a country with, for example, world class local public transport, excellent cycling facilities or warm weather. Is it right that we imprison them in the UK? Some people will still be able to do that, because they are highly skilled, but not everyone if we lose freedom of movement.

 

[southern442]

I'm too young to vote but even if I was of age I wouldn't have a clue. I predict we will vote to stay in but the turnout will be very low, because a lot of people (understandably) won't really know. I personally think we should have left this one to the politicians and we should have had a referendum on whether or not we went to war in Syria or not.

 

[47802]

I've always had time for Boris, and respect him for (finally) making his side. On the other hand I think he is being quite clever, being the the right place at the right time.

Personally, I've always been pro-European and pro-Euro. Had we been involved from the start, we might not turned a 'blind eye' to the Greeks being allowed in, despite not meeting the criteria. After all, we learnt our lesson on Black Monday/ERM. But I do believe in making Europe better.

Where I live, and the company I work for, without being in the EU would have a massive effect on our skills, development, quality of life and whole existence. That is something I am not willing to jeopardise.

If England (because the rest of the UK is happy in!), wants out, then I want the South East of England/London out of England/the UK, aren't we subsiding the rest of the UK?

Its essentially the same argument, and, whilst perfectly valid, doesn't work in reality.

As a Northerner I not a big fan of Boris Johnson, who seems to be taking a fairly big gamble, if the leave vote wins he will probably be Prime Minister if the stay vote wins he's probably on the the road to oblivion.

 

[richw]

I'm on the fence at the moment, see the positives of being in the EU but also the negatives. They roughly equal balance to me at the moment. If I remain on the fence I won't vote.

 

[Antman]

Too right and that's what should be important to most people a lot of the rest of it is bull****

I think its also fair to say that if I lost my job as result of leaving the EU, I would seeking out some of those prominent Exit supporters and I wouldn't be too happy, people shouldn't be loosing their jobs because it suits the little englanders

So how exactly are you likely to lose your job as a result of leaving the EU? This sounds like a load of drivel quite honestly.

 

[47802]

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So how exactly are you likely to lose your job as a result of leaving the EU? This sounds like a load of drivel quite honestly.

Have you not seen some the earlier posts, its quite clear that some manufacturing companies are here mainly because we are in the EU and if we leave they may relocate elsewhere.

My job personally might not be a risk it was a for instance, but I have worked for a large manufacturing company for many years until recently and I know what they are like, ultimately it will likely depend on what trade agreements we got not only with Europe but also the rest of the world.
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Have you not seen some the earlier posts, its quite clear that some manufacturing companies are here mainly because we are in the EU and if we leave they may relocate elsewhere.

My job personally might not be a risk it was a for instance, but I have worked for a large manufacturing company for many years until recently and I know what they are like, ultimately it will likely depend on what trade agreements we got not only with Europe but also the rest of the world.

It will also take a significant amount of time to negotiate an EU exit potentially up to 2 years, and some companies might leave the UK just because of that period of uncertainty alone.

 

[miami]

I'm unsure either way, but I agree the yes vote supporters lose points due to their often belittling attitude.

On the other hand the yes to eu vote really got a boost from Ian Duncan Smiths comments today.

Freedom of movement is a bit of a red herring IMO. Brits just are terrible at learning another language (and which do you pick? German? French? Chineese? Arabic?) Very hard to move to another country without speaking the lingo.

On the other hand this talk of democracy is rather hilarious when 65% of the U.K. voted for someone other than the Conservative party.

If we do stay in the EU though I don't think Boris's career is over. Cameron needs the next 3 years to heal the Tory party, and having Boris in side will be essential.

The no campaign lack any concrete "here's the plan" though, so there's a big gap in the information machine.

My biggest fear is the referendum won't be won or lost on logic. It will be decided on spin and apathy.

 

[radamfi]

It will also take a significant amount of time to negotiate an EU exit potentially up to 2 years, and some companies might leave the UK just because of that period of uncertainty alone.

The crazy thing is, in the event of an exit, bilateral agreements will probably be drawn up so everything is more or less the same as it now, yet businesses and individuals will have taken evasive action just in case the worst happens.
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Freedom of movement is a bit of a red herring IMO. Brits just are terrible at learning another language (and which do you pick? German? French? Chineese? Arabic?) Very hard to move to another country without speaking the lingo.

It is possible to get a job without speaking the local language, especially in the areas of Europe where English is well spoken, for example the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Norway. Either as an unskilled labourer or cleaner, or at an international company where there are a lot of people from different countries so that English is used as the company's main language. I know someone who worked in Rotterdam doing software, someone currently in Amsterdam working for TomTom and someone else who worked at an investment bank in Amsterdam. These people only used English at work.

An alternative is to start your own business, such as David Hembrow from www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com. He left a highly paid job in Cambridge to live in Assen where he conducts "cycle study tours" where he shows people across the world cycle infrastructure in that part of the Netherlands. He also sells Dutch cycle components worldwide.

Of course, it is possible to learn a foreign language even if you are an adult. I have taken a year off work to learn Dutch full time. The "Irish Polyglot" is a well known language expert and knows many languages, yet he left school only knowing English.

If you are retiring then of course you can get away with minimal or no foreign language knowledge, although it is naturally better if you make an effort.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Personally, I think it will be a close run thing. Whichever way it goes, we've got most of our demands on the Special Status, so we can sit outside the union and watch them all fail... And, best of all, if we leave the EU - WE GET TO KEEP THE PACERS!!!

I shall be voting for an exit

 

[DelayRepay]

I must admit. I find the constant belittling of those who chose to vote no quite insulting. Many are in the no camp and of those, many are quite intelligent. They are fully aware of the reasons why they will be voting no.

I agree - and at the moment my instinct is to vote to stay. The arguments should be based on reason, not name calling. In this respect the Scottish independence campaign got quite nasty; I hope that doesn't happen here. In the end, we do live in a democracy and have one vote each, and whatever will be will be. My view: The UK is stronger as part of Europe, but if we do leave the sky won't fall in.

So how exactly are you likely to lose your job as a result of leaving the EU? This sounds like a load of drivel quite honestly.

Well I work for a European country. They would probably retain a presence in the UK but would probably repatriate a number of "Shared" (between different countries) services back to Europe. We're not a manufacturer but I can see that the company may well prefer to have the majority of their operations within the EU.

The no campaign lack any concrete "here's the plan" though, so there's a big gap in the information machine.

My biggest fear is the referendum won't be won or lost on logic. It will be decided on spin and apathy.

I agree - I think the "Leave" campaign in Scotland didn't explain what the future looked like well enough - I am not sure they ever did confirm what currency they would use. And it's the same here. What actually happens? Yes we leave the EU there will be a saving as we won't be paying in to the EU, but will this be enough to subsidise British manufacturing which can no longer compete? Will the savings by not paying Polish people child benefit be enough to pay the extra dole?

What happens to the hard working EU migrants who are here, will they be able to apply for a residence visa, or will they have to leave?

At what point to British citizans living in other EU countries have to come home?

These are questions that I would want to see answers to, before I could be persuaded to vote to leave.

if we leave the EU - WE GET TO KEEP THE PACERS!!!

I am not sure if that was a serious comment but in what way is the EU responsible for withdrawal of the Pacers? Or is it that our economy will be so screwed that we won't be able to afford to replace them?

 

[Butts]

So if Nicola Sturgeon is saying a UK Yes Vote coupled with a Scotland Only No Vote should trigger a referendum on Independence what happens if Scotland Votes to leave and the rest of UK to stay in the EU ?

In theory, that on the basis of consistency, should also trigger a further Referendum on Independence.

I'd love to see her explain why it would not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am not sure if that was a serious comment but in what way is the EU responsible for withdrawal of the Pacers? Or is it that our economy will be so screwed that we won't be able to afford to replace them?

I thought that the decision had already been taken to replace them as part of the new franchise agreements. With regards to the comments expressed about the economy, shall I enquire as to who is it who actually purchases the replacements.

The number of people entitled to vote in the referendum is surely the same as those entitled to vote at the last General Election, but the time period for electioneering prior to the referendum does seem far longer than that normally expected prior to a General Election.

 

[anme]

If valuing democracy and sovereignty is emotional then so be it. I would happily lose out financially if it meant those elected at the general election have full influence in the laws of our country. I wouldn't take financial gains, if there are any, over such fundamental principles.

Why do those who want to leave love Westminster so much? The big democratic success stories in recent years have been when power had been taken away from Westminster, ie Scottish, Welsh and London devolution.

Power works best when held at the most appropriate level. Some is best held locally, some regionally, some nationally, and some at European level. And whatever the liars on the 'exit' side like to say, Europe is democratic.

 

[St Rollox]

Does Ruth Davidson (Scottish Tory leader) stick by David Cameron and risk her support crashing or does she do a Boris?

 

[Senex]

Why do those who want to leave love Westminster so much? The big democratic success stories in recent years have been when power had been taken away from Westminster, ie Scottish, Welsh and London devolution.

Power works best when held at the most appropriate level. Some is best held locally, some regionally, some nationally, and some at European level. And whatever the liars on the 'exit' side like to say, Europe is democratic.

The question of why the pro-leavers love Westminster so much is one that puzzles me too. Westminster is probably the least democratic parliament in the European Union, with many people's voices never really counting in elections because of the "Safe Seat" phenomenon and with governments routinely having full power to run the country despite representing a minority of the voting electorate. And then there is the joke of a second chamber that has no popular mandate at all, where each successive prime minister can appoint at whim to push the balance in his party's direction, resulting in this absurdly large chamber of political has-beens and the so-called great and good. What is there to love about it? (And that's before even looking at the way it works and whether the traditional British adversarial style, so beloved of politicians and lawyers, really is the best way to do things -- but then the inquisitorial style is a product of those backward Europeans, isn't it?)

Yet as you say, "Power works best when held at the most appropriate level", and that's where the classic mould of the EU authorities have failed, with everything so centralised. Yet a good few of the large European nations, like France and Spain, have moved quite strongly in the direction of the effective regional authorities that Germany, as a result of its history, has had since the second world war.

 

[DarloRich]

I hope now we have a date for the referendum the quality of the debate will improve. I remain undecided but am desperate for decent, educated, informed debate on the subject - I fear it will be a long wait!

 

[radamfi]

The question of why the pro-leavers love Westminster so much is one that puzzles me too. Westminster is probably the least democratic parliament in the European Union, with many people's voices never really counting in elections because of the "Safe Seat" phenomenon and with governments routinely having full power to run the country despite representing a minority of the voting electorate.

As a result of safe seats, most of us in England outside London only really have an effective vote for the EU elections, but some people want to take that away from us to!

 

[johnmoly]

Several months ago I bumped into an old ex-colleague, and having a chat he said he had worked in the EU in Brussels for eight years, he could speak fluent French, but retired 4 years ago. He stated that the majority of the EU regard the UK as an easy cash cow as UK politicians are weak and detest the English, not Scots, Irish or Welsh, just English people. He also said that when the EU dictates laws and regulations that if for example the French think its stupid rule then they just ignore it, whereas Britain obeys them all even if we think its stupid. He went on to say about the corruption and waste of money that goes on but I think we all know about that, which of course also happens within the UK.
He also stated the best thing for the UK is to vote Brexit, that will soon get Brussels to sit up and negotiate a good deal, as if that happened Cameron would get a call to go and see his masters in Brussels and then arrange another referendum. Also mentioned was the rumour ( as we met ) that Cameron could bring the vote forward a year - which he now has - and wondered if the EU were planning to introduce new legislation in 2017 which Cameron knows would be unpalatable to the British people.
Unfortunately I have lost the contact number of my old colleague, I would like to know his current views on the situation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if the polling companies have learnt any lessons after the last General Election result?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Power works best when held at the most appropriate level. Some is best held locally, some regionally, some nationally, and some at European level. And whatever the liars on the 'exit' side like to say, Europe is democratic.

Indeed it is. The Parliament is elected by the people, the Council is elected by the constituent governments. It could be more democratic, sure, but the constituent governments are not prepared to lose their power by making the Council directly elected.

The "no" lot seem fixated on the European Court of Human Rights being "unelected"- of course it is, it's a court- but given the fact that the ECHR is entirely separate to the EU I'm not sure why, other than disgingeunity, the "no" lot bring it up.
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He stated that the majority of the EU regard the UK as an easy cash cow as UK politicians are weak and detest the English, not Scots, Irish or Welsh, just English people.

An interesting viewpoint, and not one that I've heard from any of my friends who work, or have worked, in Brussels.

Their experience is that EU officials believe Britain could, and should, have more influence than it does within Brussels and the reduced influence is mostly due to the incessant squabbling about whether we're in or out. They would generally prefer Britain to be in, but there isn't much patience for the continual squabbling.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Well, my French girl-friend of 20-odd years has so got the wind by this talk of leaving (would she need a work permit to stay on in this country?) that she says we've got to get married, pronto!

One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this date is that some of us have built our personal lives around the expectation that the UK is and will continue to be in the EU. Brexit throws all that up in the air.

On an even more serious note, about 30% of the people in the office where my girlfriend works are EU nationals. Would such a company be inclined to stay if they thought they might have to get work permits for them - or will they up sticks and go to Rotterdam or Paris or somewhere? The problem is that the uncertainty engendered by this referendum is making them have these thoughts now, irrespective of the actual outcome of the referendum. It might trigger the closure of the office and the end of her job.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

He also stated the best thing for the UK is to vote Brexit, that will soon get Brussels to sit up and negotiate a good deal, as if that happened Cameron would get a call to go and see his masters in Brussels and then arrange another referendum.

...but surely that wouldn't happen. If the UK votes Brexit then that's it!