Should We Leave the EU?

[Antman]

And your evidence for that is? Leave the EU and thousands upon thousands of jobs will be lost as manufacturing plants move to Europe.

And your evidence for that is? Or is that just another one of Cameron's scare stories?

 

[ExRes]

That's very true but now that Boris Johnson has declared that he will support the No Campaign they will now have momentum.

Where is his declaration?, I see and hear nothing from the media to support your claim

 

[RichmondCommu]

And your evidence for that is? Or is that just another one of Cameron's scare stories?

The vast majority of what our car plants produce is exported to Europe. Take the UK out of the EU and all of sudden you are facing trade tariffs. At which point the car plants start becoming less competitive and they are moved to Central and Eastern Europe. Good bye jobs, good bye car industry. Take the UK out of the EU and you no longer have a say in rules and regulations which affect manufacturers. Bad news for car manufacturers and so they move.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where is his declaration?, I see and hear nothing from the media to support your claim

That will be made tonight and he will side with the out campaign.

 

[NSEFAN]

Antman, what makes you think that the government wants to have wages increased, especially a Tory government ? I'm sure plenty of right-wing types would be more than happy to have wages lowered regardless of EU membership. In fact, aren't a lot of the improvements in working hours thanks to EU policy?

 

[Busaholic]

Where is his declaration?, I see and hear nothing from the media to support your claim

Funny, I'm seeing and hearing nothing from the media other than that he will announce in his Daily Telegraph column tomorrow that, reluctantly, he will go kicking and screaming into the 'next Prime Minister' lobby (sorry, slip of the pen, the 'no' lobby) having, in true Boris style, weighed up all the factors and decided that his best (maybe only) chance of becoming PM is on the back of a successful 'no' vote in the referendum. Thatcher/Heath, Blair/Brown, Major/Redwood will then seem like nothing in comparison to Cameron/Johnson. Such fun for those of us who do love a good spat between two old Etonians with the gloves off! (And, rather like Neil Hamilton and the Phoney Pharaoh, wishing both sides could lose, bigtime.)

 

[ExRes]

Funny, I'm seeing and hearing nothing from the media other than that he will announce in his Daily Telegraph column tomorrow that, reluctantly, he will go kicking and screaming into the 'next Prime Minister' lobby (sorry, slip of the pen, the 'no' lobby) having, in true Boris style, weighed up all the factors and decided that his best (maybe only) chance of becoming PM is on the back of a successful 'no' vote in the referendum. Thatcher/Heath, Blair/Brown, Major/Redwood will then seem like nothing in comparison to Cameron/Johnson. Such fun for those of us who do love a good spat between two old Etonians with the gloves off! (And, rather like Neil Hamilton and the Phoney Pharaoh, wishing both sides could lose, bigtime.)

I rather think that if you were to stop and read the comment by RichmondCommu that I questioned, you will find that he stated Johnson had made a declaration, he has done no such thing, the media have made the 'declaration' on his behalf, a rather different thing I'm sure you'll agree

 

[cjmillsnun]

And your evidence for that is? Or is that just another one of Cameron's scare stories?

Many of the Japanese car manufacturers chose to put their plants in the UK for two reasons.

1. Government grants.
2. The UK is in the EU so they sidestep the import duties that they would have if none of their cars were made in the EU.

 

[TheKnightWho]

2. The UK is in the EU so they sidestep the import duties that they would have if none of their cars were made in the EU.

This is the key reason why it's so important to stay. Not just for car manufacture, but in general.

The idea that the UK alone could secure better trade deals than the entire clout of the EU with the UK in it is also supremely arrogant, and blind to the reality of what we could actually bring to the table in negotiations.

Artificially raising wages by heavily restricting migration simply means we will destroy our own industry through making it uncompetitive on the global stage. We are living in a global economy: businesses can always up sticks and move to other, cheaper countries, leaving only the very minimum in the UK - this would not be good for anyone.

 

[Darandio]

Wondered how long it would be before the scaremongering on terrorism would start.....

Staying in EU 'exposes UK to terror risk', says Iain Duncan Smith

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

Staying in the EU will make the UK more vulnerable to Paris-style terrorist attacks, Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has told the BBC.

Mr Duncan Smith, who is campaigning for an EU exit, also questioned the effectiveness of curbs to migrants' benefits on immigration to the UK.

 

[deltic]

I am always amused about the migration debate and the EU - since 1975 to 2015 net migration from non-EU countries has been higher than that from EU countries for every single year and yet somehow leaving the EU will "solve" our "migration crisis".

As for IDS comments - we dont have open borders and maintain our passport and border controls so not sure what difference being inside or outside the EU will make with regard to that - unless he is planning on banning all future travel to and from EU countries.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I rather think that if you were to stop and read the comment by RichmondCommu that I questioned, you will find that he stated Johnson had made a declaration, he has done no such thing, the media have made the 'declaration' on his behalf, a rather different thing I'm sure you'll agree

Boris Johnson has made it clear to certain individuals that he intends to join the no camp. This became perfectly obvious last night.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Wondered how long it would be before the scaremongering on terrorism would start.....

Staying in EU 'exposes UK to terror risk', says Iain Duncan Smith

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409

This is grossly irresponsible. He should be removed as a minister immediately.

 

[Johnuk123]

Boris Johnson has declared as an Outer.

 

[Trog]

The vast majority of what our car plants produce is exported to Europe. Take the UK out of the EU and all of sudden you are facing trade tariffs. At which point the car plants start becoming less competitive and they are moved to Central and Eastern Europe. Good bye jobs, good bye car industry. Take the UK out of the EU and you no longer have a say in rules and regulations which affect manufacturers. Bad news for car manufacturers and so they move.

Yes but if they did that we would no doubt put tariffs on what they sell us, and we buy 31.3 billion pounds worth of cars from them, compared to exports of 11.9 billion. Also our exports to the EU are falling with nearly two thirds of what we export car wise going to non EU countries.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes but if they did that we would no doubt put tariffs on what they sell us, and we buy 31.3 billion pounds worth of cars from them, compared to exports of 11.9 billion. Also our exports to the EU are falling with nearly two thirds of what we export car wise going to non EU countries.

The French and the Germans have other markets in Europe and would continue to sell cars to the rest of Europe without tariffs being charged to their cars. The vast majority of what Nissan. Toyota and Honda produce is sold to the EU. There would be no reason to keep those much coveted car plants in the UK if the UK left the EU. European bound car exports have declined because the European economy is struggling at the moment. By the same token I wouldn't rely too much on the Chinese economy at the moment.

 

[Busaholic]

To save anyone the expense of buying the Daily Telegraph tomorrow, or the chore of reading it online, I'll precis what Boris will say in his leader (sorry, column).

'' The most difficult decision of my political career... agonising... sleepless nights... David Cameron was dealt a rotten hand, with which he did brilliantly, but in the end the odds were stacked too far against him... David, whom I am proud to call my friend, is the most magnificent leader/PM/fellow and, whatever the result of the referendum, should continue to lead us so brilliantly for as long as possible...the most important decision the British people have had to make since the Second World War... sovereignty... Churchill...blah blah''.

 

[DelayRepay]

'' The most difficult decision of my political career... agonising... sleepless nights... David Cameron was dealt a rotten hand, with which he did brilliantly, but in the end the odds were stacked too far against him... David, whom I am proud to call my friend, is the most magnificent leader/PM/fellow and, whatever the result of the referendum, should continue to lead us so brilliantly for as long as possible...the most important decision the British people have had to make since the Second World War... sovereignty... Churchill...blah blah''.

That is more or less what he's just said on BBC London News.

 

[Trog]

The French and the Germans have other markets in Europe and would continue to sell cars to the rest of Europe without tariffs being charged to their cars. The vast majority of what Nissan. Toyota and Honda produce is sold to the EU. There would be no reason to keep those much coveted car plants in the UK if the UK left the EU. European bound car exports have declined because the European economy is struggling at the moment. By the same token I wouldn't rely too much on the Chinese economy at the moment.

Read the figures the trade imbalance is three to one. Any thing they did that stopped us selling them one car, if reciprocated would cost them three sales. Are they that stupid?

Also if trade restrictions made EU cars cost more, could UK industry perhaps pick up more UK sales to balance the loss of the EU market which is after all only a third of the size of the market the EU would be throwing away.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Read the figures the trade imbalance is three to one. Any thing they did that stopped us selling them one car, if reciprocated would cost them three sales. Are they that stupid?

Oh I've read the figures. You're suggesting that it wouldn't be an issue to see car production cut by a third and production switched to car plants in Europe. I'm sure the workers losing their jobs would be thrilled with this news. If we imposed tariffs in imported cars inflation would rocket. Europe won't have that problem because production will be switched.

Also if trade restrictions made EU cars cost more, could UK industry perhaps pick up more UK sales to balance the loss of the EU market which is after all only a third of the size of the market the EU would be throwing away.

So how do you suggest that the UK car market picks up the slack? If that was possible surely we would already be selling more cars in the UK?

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm sure the workers losing their jobs would be thrilled with this news. If we imposed tariffs in imported cars inflation would rocket. Europe won't have that problem because production will be switched.

Isn't the biggest threat to jobs in the car industry actually automation ?

Many buisness' switch locations within the EU due to tax constraints. If we left the EU then there is nothing that would stop the UK from offering tax breaks. The film industry recently benefited from such a tax break.

 

[fowler9]

Isn't the biggest threat to jobs in the car industry actually automation ?

Many buisness' switch locations within the EU due to tax constraints. If we left the EU then there is nothing that would stop the UK from offering tax breaks. The film industry recently benefited from such a tax break.

How is the UK going to offer to charge people less tax? We allegedly can't afford what tax is paying for now. (Despite having the 5th best economy in the world).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Isn't the biggest threat to jobs in the car industry actually automation ?

If you look at the amount of automation that already exists in current and that car plants are expanding their workforce (or at least two have) I would argue against that.

Many buisness' switch locations within the EU due to tax constraints. If we left the EU then there is nothing that would stop the UK from offering tax breaks. The film industry recently benefited from such a tax break.

Yes you could but there is course nothing to stop our European competitors doing the same.

 

[Trog]

Oh I've read the figures. You're suggesting that it wouldn't be an issue to see car production cut by a third and production switched to car plants in Europe. I'm sure the workers losing their jobs would be thrilled with this news. If we imposed tariffs in imported cars inflation would rocket. Europe won't have that problem because production will be switched.

So how do you suggest that the UK car market picks up the slack? If that was possible surely we would already be selling more cars in the UK?

:roll: Read the post, that is not what I am suggesting at all, it is what you are saying. I am pointing out that with the imbalance of trade in cars being 3 to 1 in the EU's favour they would be fools to rock the boat as they have more to loose.

As you say Europe can build the 11 billion pounds worth of cars we sell them elsewhere, and it will perhaps help make up for the loss of the 31 billion pounds of sales to the UK they could suffer as a result of tit for tat taxation.

In the real world it would probably be in the best interests of both sides to rapidly arrive at an agreement to keep the car trade just the way it is.

 

[47802]

Read the figures the trade imbalance is three to one. Any thing they did that stopped us selling them one car, if reciprocated would cost them three sales. Are they that stupid?

Also if trade restrictions made EU cars cost more, could UK industry perhaps pick up more UK sales to balance the loss of the EU market which is after all only a third of the size of the market the EU would be throwing away.

The UK Industry that could pick up the slack would be what exactly given all UK car production of any significance is foreign owned

Honda, Toyota, Nissaan are clearly here because we are in the EU, there was a comment about 18 months ago from a senior member of the Japanese government about such as the above companies relocating if we left the EU although it wasn't widely reported by the likes of the UKIP loving Daily Express for obvious reasons.

So then that leaves the Germans, Indians and the Amercian's owning the remains of what was the traditional UK car industry whether they would stay or go remains to be seen.

A Multi European company I worked for until recently didn't even like the fact the UK isnt in the Euro let alone not being in the EU.

I don't doubt we will get a trade agreement with the EU but to get something similar to what we have now will be a very hard bargain so much so that that we might just as well be in the EU and influence the decisions, while those who think that leaving the EU wil bring us back to some kind of 1950's UK utopia and fix all migration problems I think are somewhat deluded, then of course it probably lead to the break up of the Union and we will end up with 2 EU land borders, Ireland and Northern Ireland, and England and Scotland

 

[Busaholic]

That is more or less what he's just said on BBC London News.

Strewth - my true identity has been revealed.

 

[RichmondCommu]

:roll: Read the post, that is not what I am suggesting at all, it is what you are saying. I am pointing out that with the imbalance of trade in cars being 3 to 1 in the EU's favour they would be fools to rock the boat as they have more to loose.

As you say Europe can build the 11 billion pounds worth of cars we sell them elsewhere, and it will perhaps help make up for the loss of the 31 billion pounds of sales to the UK they could suffer as a result of tit for tat taxation.

In the real world it would probably be in the best interests of both sides to rapidly arrive at an agreement to keep the car trade just the way it is.

I've read your post and I've explained what will happen to our Japanese owned car plants if we leave the EU. I've also explained the affects on inflation by enforcing tariffs on imported cars from Europe. The fact that you are choosing ignore what myself and the car industry is saying is up to you. People in this country will continue to buy Merc's, BMW's, Audi's and Porsche even if they are having to pay more. Stand by for high inflation and interest rates, not to mention chaos in the share market. The City doesn't like uncertainty.

Ultimately we need the EU more than the EU needs us. The remaining members of the EU would have no need to reach an agreement with us; the car plants will be based in Europe and inflationary pressures will prevent us from applying tariffs.

 

[tony_mac]

That is more or less what he's just said on BBC London News.

I think he may also have said...

I've never sought office, but I suppose that if my colleagues were to persuade me that the best place to serve it from was Ten Downing Street, then I might reluctantly have to accept the responsibility, whatever my own private wishes might be.

I've read your post and I've explained what will happen to our Japanese owned car plants if we leave the EU. I've also explained the affects on inflation by enforcing tariffs on imported cars from Europe.

You are imagining a scenario that many people think is wildly unlikely, and posting it as a fact.
While you are entitled to an opinion, I'm not sure that the hyperbole helps the quality of the debate.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think he may also have said...


You are imagining a scenario that many people think is wildly unlikely, and posting it as a fact.
While you are entitled to an opinion, I'm not sure that the hyperbole helps the quality of the debate.

It's not hyperbole and its not widely unlikely. I'm simply posting my thoughts and the thoughts of many others involved in manufacturing. Even those in the out campaign have already admitted that we are likely to see hundreds of thousands of jobs lost.

 

[tony_mac]

That's an opinion. It's certainly not a fact, and I think presenting it as such doesn't really help anyone.

 

[RichmondCommu]

That's an opinion. It's certainly not a fact, and I think presenting it as such doesn't really help anyone.

Perhaps you should start reading what British based manufacturing is saying, or what the top 100 FTSE listed companies are saying. They are worried and with some justification. It's all very well ex Tory Chancellors saying that the loss of jobs is a price worth paying but they of course won't be affected by such things.