Should We Leave the EU?

[tony_mac]

It is possible for Scotland to be an independent member of the EU, as opposed to being a member because it is part of the UK.

I think that you missed the point - which was that no members of the EU are independent (except maybe Estonia), as they are all ruled by other people...
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2452308&postcount=27

 

[anme]

I think that you missed the point - which was that no members of the EU are independent (except maybe Estonia), as they are all ruled by other people...
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2452308&postcount=27

No, you have missed the point. Why is it worse for someone in Estonia to have a say in how you are ruled? Why is it worse than someone the other end of the UK having a (much larger) say? Also you have a say in how they are ruled. It's called democracy.

 

[tony_mac]

No, you have missed the point.

Ok, I can see my reply wasn't very clear - I wasn't expressing those opinions as my own, I was simply describing the meaning behind the post that krus_aragon was replying to, as I think he had misinterpreted it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The EU is ruled by the constituent members of the EU. The EU Parliament is democratically elected. The EU Commission is elected by the governments of each of the constituent members.

I know the Farages of the world like to claim we're ruled by "faceless bureaucrats"- which may or may not be true- but the fact is between us and our government we appoint the people who run the EU.

That's a fact the government like to gloss over when it suits them...

 

[Senex]

One interesting point about this referendum is that it will be one of the few times that my vote will have an effect on the outcome (if I understand the process correctly).

In all general elections that I've participated in except one, I've always lived in 'safe' seats.

Me too -- and many thousands of others!

However, I believe we have to consider whether the EU itself is travelling in the correct direction.

Watching the Prime Ministers tour of Europe, it seems to be all about the Uk's relationship with that organisation. Have we really seen anything to suggest that the EU has really changed its own over-centralised way of conducting it's affairs?

Many of us may wonder very much if the EU is travelling in the correct direction (if we can know what "correct" is) but may still on balance prefer to be in this flawed organisation to being Little England standing up against the Wicked World.

The over-centralised form of the EU goes back to its very strongly French-influenced origins, at a time when France was a massively centralised state. Could there have been change if we had really joined in and worked the system right from the start rather than sitting on the sidelines and sniping all the time, always emphasising how different Britain was? And Cameron's whole exercise now seems to be much more a question of "You've got to make allowances for us because we're so different" than "How can we all work together to create a better EU". Hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

Secretary Kerry, and indeed President Obama have not had to live with the consequences of Ill though out projects such as the single currency, which Greece and Spain have to put up with.

Absolutely -- though Greece and Spain weren't exactly reluctant to join in.

Have we any chance of changing this mindset to one which supports the 'Europe des patries' which would benefit everyone on the continent?

If that means much more regionalism, then I agree with you. If it means a Europe of petty nation-states, then I don't think I like the prospect very much -- and I don't think it would give much of a chance of bringing Great Britain into the modern world!

So I shall actually be bothering to go out and vote in this referendum, and -- albeit reluctantly -- shall be voting to stay in.

 

[Busaholic]

I may just have seen a car registration plate expressing a political opinion on EEC membership - N1 EEC. It belongs to a newish sports car, so the N has no relevance to its date of registration. I guess N0 EEC wasn't obtainable, so this would be the nearest alternative. Of course, it could just be the car is owned by Nigel Eric Ernest Catchpole, but I suspect not!

 

[me123]

N1 could be "IN" backwards

 

[Busaholic]

N1 could be "IN" backwards

That hadn't occurred to me. Of course, the car might be owned by NIgel:Farage, so killing two birds...

 

[miami]

I'd assume it was owned by a a knight who says "Ni". Perhaps Cameron's latest demand is a shrubbery?

 

[charley_17/7]

Not In Employment, Education or Capable

(which sums up the No Campaign!!)

 

[fowler9]

The out campaign always reminds me of a lady I know who lives near Seville. She left the UK because of all the people coming here who don't adapt to the way of life. She lives in a British community and can't speak a word of Spanish apart from Hola and Adios. I will greet her at the airport when she gets sent back.

 

[Monty]

A bit of a tricky decision from my point of view, on one hand I dislike the bureaucracy of Brussels and the way the whole organisation is run. But the flip side of that is leaving the European Union will have serious consequences for us as a nation, could we survive outside of the EU? Yes, almost certainly however things won't happen overnight and it could be a decade before the country properly recovers from the potential political and economic fallout.

I think I shall reluctantly be voting to remain within the Union dispite believing this agreement the Prime Minister has negotiated is not worth the paper it's written on.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Is it possible to set up an opinion poll on this website about this topic. In or Out of the EU?

 

[Senex]

Is there not something rather odd about being a member of a club and then going on and on about how different one is and how one needs a special set of rules rather than being bound by the general rules of membership?

We're hearing an awful lot about "special status". Why does Britain deserve any special status?

 

[NoMorePacers]

May I ask a question: Who's local MP is Conservative (a Tory)? Mine isn't. It's a Labour one.

 

[Trog]

If we leave there will certainly be a bilateral agreement of some sort. But why should we think that the EU will do anything other than negotiate the toughest possible terms? They owe us no favours -- we've been a pretty bad member of the club for 40-odd years -- and they will want to set a marker for others as to what they might expect if they wanted to leave.

I think we buy more from them than we sell to them so easy trade would be to their advantage. Also at least for a few years until they found alternate sources of supply Euro industries using parts made in British factories would be disadvantaged re the rest of the world if import taxes etc put up their costs.

Not that that is any guarantee that their politicians will not cut off their nose to spite their face.

 

[ExRes]

Not In Employment, Education or Capable

(which sums up the No Campaign!!)

I take it that this 'comment' is a joke or could it be your reasoned argument?
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We're hearing an awful lot about "special status". Why does Britain deserve any special status?

Because we are a net contributor?, unlike most of the EU membership
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May I ask a question: Who's local MP is Conservative (a Tory)? Mine isn't. It's a Labour one.

Mine is

 

[NoMorePacers]

Originally posted by ExRes Mine is

Right, it seems like most Tory MP's want to leave the EU

 

[TheKnightWho]

Because we are a net contributor?, unlike most of the EU membership
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The EU is not a zero-sum game. Everyone benefits economically because of the additional wealth generated through cooperation. If this phenomenon didn't exist there'd be no point in countries existing, as every county could just do their own thing without issue, and then every ward, and then every person etc...

So being a net contributor is literally irrelevant.

 

[47802]

For me its a no brainer, economically and Job wise I think we will be better off in the EU, and that's the primary importance in my view, if we come out then there will be a whole world of consequences and uncertainces, the first consequence I suspect would be that Cameron would go, and then I think another go at breaking up the Union with the Scots wanting another go at independence soon, as well as the minefield of issues of the UK leaving the EU.

 

[Senex]

Having always lived in safe seats and therefore never in half a century having been canvassed for parliamentary elections, I shall be very interested to see if the EU question in a referendum that may well be quite a close thing may at last bring at least one canvasser in my direction.
(PS The FPTP safe seat thing means that as far as I am concerned I have never actually had representation in parliament.)

 

[Dave1987]

I'm probably going to vote to stay in but one thing did make me laugh. The Polish and Hungarian PM's saying they would refuse to allow Britain to not pay child benefit to their citizens who work in the UK but their children reside in their home country. If the UK left the EU their citizens wouldn't get the benefit at all let alone indexed. I believe the deal is as good as we are going to get and believe the costs of leaving are higher than what is gained by leaving.

 

[All Line Rover]

There was an interesting point on Question Time last night. It is often forgotten we have a land border, a porous land border, with the EU in Ireland. How do we police that on the event our our leaving the EU?

Neither the UK nor Ireland is in Schengen so in terms of crossing the border by land it should make no difference. The Common Travel Area enables passport free crossing between Northern Ireland and the Republic which could continue regardless. Furthermore, Irish people have always been allowed to live in the UK without restriction even before the EU so that will presumably be unchanged. Not sure about the other way around. However people from Northern Ireland can get an Irish passport if necessary so that is an option for them if they want to live and work in the EU/EEA.

The main issue would be the customs union. That could be preserved under a Norway-style agreement.

If NI wishes to continue to benefit from Ireland's membership of the EU, it will need to continue to accept EU citizens on the same terms as UK and Irish nationals in order to maintain a tenable working relationship. Will border controls therefore be introduced between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or will whatever relationship exists at present (of which I am unfamiliar) continue regardless? The latter is the more likely; one of many gaping holes in the idea that Great Britain would be "protected" from EU migrants by leaving the EU. I'm under the impression that a significantly lesser proportion of the Northern Irish have this visceral fear of EU migrants that many English have, which is why I am surprised that Theresa Villiers and, especially, the DUP, are in favour of leaving the EU. Perhaps any NI / Irish residents on here (if there are any) would be able to elaborate.

A similar thought applies to Scotland. Scotland votes to leave the UK and joins the EU. We are left as Little England (and Wales), while a land border is created between England and the EU. When combined with the NI / Ireland land border there would be over 400 miles of land border between the UK and the EU, around one quarter of which would be in Great Britain.

These considerations are, in my mind, of far greater importance than those considerations which have been featured in the mass media and perpetuated, so far, by the government.
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I'm probably going to vote to stay in but one thing did make me laugh. The Polish and Hungarian PM's saying they would refuse to allow Britain to not pay child benefit to their citizens who work in the UK but their children reside in their home country. If the UK left the EU their citizens wouldn't get the benefit at all let alone indexed. I believe the deal is as good as we are going to get and believe the costs of leaving are higher than what is gained by leaving.

The UK is free to decide not to pay child benefit and child tax credit to non-resident children (recent ECJ case law makes it quite clear that this would be permitted under EU law). But the UK government won't do this because it would disadvantage English expats in, for example, Spain. It must have taken the calculated decision that the amount paid to the non-resident children of migrant EU workers, such as the Polish, is negligible in the context of the overall child benefit and child tax credit budget (which is true). But considering the furore which has developed over this issue, I'm surprised the UK government considered it necessary to ensure the protection of expats, who have waved goodbye to the UK, over the need to avoid disagreement with other Member States over an issue which is petty in itself, but legally and politically difficult to resolve for as long as the UK refuses to amend its own welfare system.

 

[Busaholic]

Three asides:-

1) Michael Gove's 'coming out' almost certainly means he won't be able to be Boy George's campaign manager in the forthcoming leadership contest;

2) Galloway's Messiah-like appearance at the Out rally was no surprise to me. On Question Time recently he went out of his way to praise Farage, who wasn't even on the programme;

3) Laura Kuennsberg, the BBC Political Editor is predicting BoJo swinging behind the Nos, or should I say swinging to front them?!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Despite all the "media-loved" talk of how Conservative Party MP's stances seem on the matter, the only meaningful outcome will be when the electorate actually cast their votes on the referendum issue.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Despite all the "media-loved" talk of how Conservative Party MP's stances seem on the matter, the only meaningful outcome will be when the electorate actually cast their votes on the referendum issue.

That's very true but now that Boris Johnson has declared that he will support the No Campaign they will now have momentum.

 

[Antman]

For me its a no brainer, economically and Job wise I think we will be better off in the EU, and that's the primary importance in my view, if we come out then there will be a whole world of consequences and uncertainces, the first consequence I suspect would be that Cameron would go, and then I think another go at breaking up the Union with the Scots wanting another go at independence soon, as well as the minefield of issues of the UK leaving the EU.

It's a no brainer for me too, we need to get out. The EU is nothing but a club for big business!

 

[RichmondCommu]

It's a no brainer for me too, we need to get out. The EU is nothing but a club for big business!

And who employs people? Oh wait that would be big businesses! I tell you what lets get rid of all the big businesses and then everyone can go on the dole.

 

[Antman]

And who employs people? Oh wait that would be big businesses! I tell you what lets get rid of all the big businesses and then everyone can go on the dole.

More a case of driving down wages or hadn't you thought of that?:roll:

 

[RichmondCommu]

More a case of driving down wages or hadn't you thought of that?:roll:

And your evidence for that is? Leave the EU and thousands upon thousands of jobs will be lost as manufacturing plants move to Europe.