Should We Leave the EU?

[richa2002]

You're not independent if you're a member of the EU, it's simple.

 

[anme]

You're not independent if you're a member of the EU, it's simple.

I disagree.

 

[bnm]

You're not independent if you're a member of the EU, it's simple.

No. That assertion is simple.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You're not independent if you're a member of the EU, it's simple.

No country is completely independent full stop. All countries depend on the global economy, and on trade and relations with other countries in ways that in practice heavily restrict their Government's freedom in various ways, and all countries are signatories to all sorts of treaties that have a similar impact. The EU doesn't change that, although you could possibly argue that it changes the extent to which member Governments are restricted in what they can do.

 

[cb a1]

The way I think about it is that if we chose to leave tomorrow can we actually leave tomorrow?

For example, I would argue that Scotland isn't independent as we are dependent on the UK for many things like passports, driving licences, tax and benefit systems, etc. All of these would take time to set up.

On a personal level, my 12 year old son is dependent. He cannot live independently.

I can't see any reason why the UK couldn't function as the UK the day after a vote to leave the EU. Therefore I see the UK as an independent nation, unlike Scotland or Wales.

Being independent does not mean isolated nor free from responsibility. I'm an independent adult living with my partner and our son. This does not mean I can do anything I want; I have to discuss things, compromise, negotiate and if I did walk out of the door, I'm not free of responsibility for my dependents.

 

[DarloRich]

There was an interesting point on Question Time last night. It is often forgotten we have a land border, a porous land border, with the EU in Ireland. How do we police that on the event our our leaving the EU?

 

[anme]

There was an interesting point on Question Time last night. It is often forgotten we have a land border, a porous land border, with the EU in Ireland. How do we police that on the event our our leaving the EU?

The same way we do now. The UK and Ireland have agreed a common travel area.

To be clear, I strongly support staying in the EU.

 

[radamfi]

There was an interesting point on Question Time last night. It is often forgotten we have a land border, a porous land border, with the EU in Ireland. How do we police that on the event our our leaving the EU?

Neither the UK nor Ireland is in Schengen so in terms of crossing the border by land it should make no difference. The Common Travel Area enables passport free crossing between Northern Ireland and the Republic which could continue regardless. Furthermore, Irish people have always been allowed to live in the UK without restriction even before the EU so that will presumably be unchanged. Not sure about the other way around. However people from Northern Ireland can get an Irish passport if necessary so that is an option for them if they want to live and work in the EU/EEA.

The main issue would be the customs union. That could be preserved under a Norway-style agreement.

 

[crehld]

The main issue would be the customs union. That could be preserved under a Norway-style agreement.

Of course it could. Just don't expect the UK to be in a position to influence it's terms (as per Norway).

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is often forgotten we have a land border, a porous land border, with the EU in Ireland. How do we police that on the event our our leaving the EU?

Ireland is not in Schengen, so everything would just carry on as normal. Remember that Northern Irish people are eligible for Irish citizenship as well as British. Also remember that, regardless of what the free travel agreement is with Ireland, people are forced through passport control at Dublin on arrival on flights from the UK.

IME the Gardai are more interested in guarding the border than the PSNI are.

 

[me123]

It's that time of the year when Scotland b!tches about secession:

Poll finds majority support for independence if UK exits EU



http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/po...port-for-independence-if-uk-exits-eu-1.923704

So basically, Scotland is blackmailing the UK into staying in the EU. Every time the Scottish people don't have their way, they throw temper tantrums and whine about wanting to secede. The UK contributes more to Scotland than vice versa. I don't even consider Scots to be real Brits.

The Scots believe that being a part of the EU will facilitate the exchange of goods and services between their tiny, pathetic region and the other European Union members. They also believe that if the UK leaves the European Union then they'll have less control over international relations and foreign and security policies since they will be under the control of the UK as opposed to the entire European Union.

Scotland, if you want to leave the UK, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I don't think I really need to reply to this ludicrous garbage, which is not only deeply insulting to me but also the millions of people worldwide who identify themselves in any way as "Scottish". There's no facts in this drivel, just bigoted, misinformed opinion. It's very easy to spout stuff like this when you're sitting three-and-a-half thousand miles away and have little knowledge of the intricacies and practicalities of the argument.

What I will say... independence from the UK seems to be working pretty well for America...

 

[DarloRich]

The same way we do now. The UK and Ireland have agreed a common travel area.

To be clear, I strongly support staying in the EU.

would we be able to maintain the common travel agreement? What of people from Europe arriving in Dublin and then travelling freely to NI and hence to the mainland UK?

Would that not scupper all of the once we left the EU we could control our borders and stop immigrants arguments?

 

[anme]

would we be able to maintain the common travel agreement? What of people from Europe arriving in Dublin and then travelling freely to NI and hence to the mainland UK?

Would that not scupper all of the once we left the EU we could control our borders and stop immigrants arguments?

It is actually a fair point - Ireland would presumably want to retain the rights of EU, Norwegian, Swiss and Icelandic citizens to live and work there. This does not stop the UK from having a policy denying some or all of those people the right to live and work here. That's separate to deciding whether the border is policed, which is just one form of enforcement. The UK could introduce other forms of enforcement, e.g. random ID checks in the street, house to house searches, incentives for informing on illegal residents or workers, etc. Many of the anti-EU brigade would no doubt like this very much.

 

[radamfi]

The Common Travel Area already has a "leak". The UK and Ireland have separate visa systems so if you have a visa for one that only works for that country. So someone who has an Irish visa could travel to Northern Ireland, where there is usually no border check, and then travel from Northern Ireland to anywhere else in the UK.

 

[Tetchytyke]

would we be able to maintain the common travel agreement? What of people from Europe arriving in Dublin and then travelling freely to NI and hence to the mainland UK?

People are not permitted to "travel freely" between Ireland and the UK unless they are an Irish, EU or UK citizen.

Should the split happen, I'd expect the PSNI to start taking border checks a little more seriously than they do at present. The Gardai already do take border checks seriously: two years ago I was on the morning Belfast-Dublin express coach which was pulled over by the Gardai and several people were forcibly removed from it because they didn't have a visa for Ireland. My friend, who lived in Derry, couldn't take her husband to visit her Irish family because he only had a UK visa. And so it goes.

 

[radamfi]

The Gardai already do take border checks seriously: two years ago I was on the morning Belfast-Dublin express coach which was pulled over by the Gardai and several people were forcibly removed from it because they didn't have a visa for Ireland. My friend, who lived in Derry, couldn't take her husband to visit her Irish family because he only had a UK visa. And so it goes.

If I wanted to cross the border "illegally" like that then I would get a local bus such as Armagh to Dundalk. The Enterprise and coaches are too obvious.

 

[me123]

The Common Travel Area already has a "leak". The UK and Ireland have separate visa systems so if you have a visa for one that only works for that country. So someone who has an Irish visa could travel to Northern Ireland, where there is usually no border check, and then travel from Northern Ireland to anywhere else in the UK.

Theoretically you should need to provide identification when traveling between Ireland and the UK, such as an ID check on arrival. My last time returning from Dublin, I had a check by Special Branch of Police Scotland (of course, it's not a passport check, driver's license is acceptable for EU citizens). However, the time before that, I just walked off the plane.

It's likely that should the UK leave the EU, the border with Ireland will be slightly strengthened as a result.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Theoretically you should need to provide identification when traveling between Ireland and the UK, such as an ID check on arrival

I don't know how stringently Stena and Irish Ferries do the ID checks, but you should have to provide ID in order to board a domestic flight anyway.

 

[me123]

I don't know how stringently Stena and Irish Ferries do the ID checks, but you should have to provide ID in order to board a domestic flight anyway.

Not entirely true. You only need ID to fly within the UK if you are checking a bag. You need not carry ID if you are flying with hand luggage only. BA certainly only advise you to carry ID. Virgin Atlantic Little Red (now defunct) quite openly stated that you only needed ID if you were checking a bag - I flew domestic with them four times and was not once asked for ID.

Other airlines (easyJet, Ryanair, flyBe) insist that passengers carry ID - that's their own policy and is not a legal requirement.

 

[yorksrob]

One interesting point about this referendum is that it will be one of the few times that my vote will have an effect on the outcome (if I understand the process correctly).

In all general elections that I've participated in except one, I've always lived in 'safe' seats.

I wonder whether this will help to give the country more of a taste for direct democracy, or at least, meaningful electoral reform.
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I hear on the radio that Secretary Kerry of the US State Dept has outlined the US Governments preference for the UK to remain a member of the EU. IMO, it is right and proper for our allies in the USA to express their beliefs on the situation.

However, I believe we have to consider whether the EU itself is travelling in the correct direction.

Watching the Prime Ministers tour of Europe, it seems to be all about the Uk's relationship with that organisation. Have we really seen anything to suggest that the EU has really changed its own over-centralised way of conducting it's affairs?

Secretary Kerry, and indeed President Obama have not had to live with the consequences of Ill though out projects such as the single currency, which Greece and Spain have to put up with.

Have we any chance of changing this mindset to one which supports the 'Europe des patries' which would benefit everyone on the continent?

I remain to be convinced.

 

[radamfi]

One interesting point about this referendum is that it will be one of the few times that my vote will have an effect on the outcome (if I understand the process correctly).

In all general elections that I've participated in except one, I've always lived in 'safe' seats.

I wonder whether this will help to give the country more of a taste for direct democracy, or at least, meaningful electoral reform.

That's true, at least for most of us in England. We have the Euro elections and other than that nothing, other than the occasional referendum. Electoral reform seems to be moving down the agenda now if anything, given that the Lib Dems are out of the picture at the moment. The Tories are increasing the amount of countryside in each seat so electoral reform is more remote than ever.

However, I believe we have to consider whether the EU itself is travelling in the correct direction.

Watching the Prime Ministers tour of Europe, it seems to be all about the Uk's relationship with that organisation. Have we really seen anything to suggest that the EU has really changed its own over-centralised way of conducting it's affairs?

Secretary Kerry, and indeed President Obama have not had to live with the consequences of Ill though out projects such as the single currency, which Greece and Spain have to put up with.

Have we any chance of changing this mindset to one which supports the 'Europe des patries' which would benefit everyone on the continent?

I remain to be convinced.

Well, the EU will continue to exist, regardless of whether the UK continues to be a member, and will continue to have a significant influence on the UK in any event. Poor economic performance within the EU causes economic difficulties outside it. Is it better for the UK to try and change things from within or outside the union?

I suppose there could be a debate as to whether the EU should be dissolved in its entirety?

 

[yorksrob]

That's true, at least for most of us in England. We have the Euro elections and other than that nothing, other than the occasional referendum. Electoral reform seems to be moving down the agenda now if anything, given that the Lib Dems are out of the picture at the moment. The Tories are increasing the amount of countryside in each seat so electoral reform is more remote than ever.



Well, the EU will continue to exist, regardless of whether the UK continues to be a member, and will continue to have a significant influence on the UK in any event. Poor economic performance within the EU causes economic difficulties outside it. Is it better for the UK to try and change things from within or outside the union?

I suppose there could be a debate as to whether the EU should be dissolved in its entirety?

Very good points which I can't disagree with.

Although I would rather a better European Community than for it to be dissolved entirely.

 

[Busaholic]

Very good points which I can't disagree with.

Although I would rather a better European Community than for it to be dissolved entirely.

I don't think the latter is being proposed by anyone, even the Out campaign leader Nigel, Lord Lawson who chooses to live in France. I do hope if we leave Europe the old hypocrite is forcibly chucked out by the French authorities.

 

[trainmania100]

No we shouldn't leave the EU otherwise I'd need to pay import tax for stuff from EU

 

[WelshBluebird]

One interesting point about this referendum is that it will be one of the few times that my vote will have an effect on the outcome (if I understand the process correctly).

In all general elections that I've participated in except one, I've always lived in 'safe' seats.

I wonder whether this will help to give the country more of a taste for direct democracy, or at least, meaningful electoral reform.

We did have the AV referendum a few years ago don't forget.
Although that was sadly used as some to punish the lib dems.
It didn't help that many who did want reform actually voted no because AV isn't really a great solution - of course the establishment took every no vote to be a vote in favour of FPTP.

 

[yorksrob]

We did have the AV referendum a few years ago don't forget.
Although that was sadly used as some to punish the lib dems.
It didn't help that many who did want reform actually voted no because AV isn't really a great solution - of course the establishment took every no vote to be a vote in favour of FPTP.

Well, I think a proportion of the public found the debate a bit academic at the time. Actually having a vote on something more tangible might capture some peoples imagination a bit more.

 

[radamfi]

No we shouldn't leave the EU otherwise I'd need to pay import tax for stuff from EU

Unless a bilateral agreement is subsequently drawn up between the UK and the EU.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Actually having a vote on something more tangible might capture some peoples imagination a bit more.

I hope so, because the current standard of debate is absolutely atrocious. The public arguments so far seem to be:

FOR: You can fill your car with booze in Calais and go on a cheap sun holiday in Spain.

AGAINST: Forrin people stealing your job.

Sadly, the chances of this actually being an informed debate are pretty much nil, I'd say.

 

[Senex]

We did have the AV referendum a few years ago don't forget.
Although that was sadly used as some to punish the lib dems.
It didn't help that many who did want reform actually voted no because AV isn't really a great solution - of course the establishment took every no vote to be a vote in favour of FPTP.

I was one who voted against AV because it is not a proportional system. If we'd gone for it, then the establishment would have latched on to that for the next century and there'd have been no chance of another attempt to get genuine proportional representation.
But as you say, the establishment duly took the "No" vote as a massive vote of confidence in its beloved FPTP. But what can you expect when neither of our major parties has any real interest in having a proportional system?
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Unless a bilateral agreement is subsequently drawn up between the UK and the EU.

If we leave there will certainly be a bilateral agreement of some sort. But why should we think that the EU will do anything other than negotiate the toughest possible terms? They owe us no favours -- we've been a pretty bad member of the club for 40-odd years -- and they will want to set a marker for others as to what they might expect if they wanted to leave.

 

[krus_aragon]

You're not independent if you're a member of the EU, it's simple.

It is possible for Scotland to be an independent member of the EU, as opposed to being a member because it is part of the UK.