Should we have a universal ID card?

[Senex]

The UK has created a system whereby people are constantly having to verify their identity to access various state and private services and to be able to gain work or rental accommodation. The UK has also steadfastly refused (and for some reason many people seem happy to go along with this for no obvious reason other than "meh, we've made it this far") alongside this increased level of need to prove who you are to make it actually easy to do. Instead we rely on an archaic system of using IDs which aren't actually intended for that function (such as passports or driving licences) and paperwork (which increasingly isn't issued on paper anymore and is easy to forge anyway). Madness.

The trouble is that in this, as in so many other areas, the UK has never actually created a system but has just allowed all sorts of different customs to develop into a "system", each without regard for any of the others. And then it's far too difficult to rationalise things, and in any case, we're proud to be British and different, aren't we? (And isn't that in part why HS2 is such a mess? We had to do our own thing and have the best and the fastest rather than just draw on the proven experience of other places.)

 

[crablab]

I'm really struggling to see why this point seems so hard to understand for some people. I can only assume that they're in the fortunate position of either having rarely needed to verify their identity for work, to rent a property, set up bank accounts, claim welfare benefits, etc etc or have been able and willing to pay for a passport or driving licence and have the requisite other documents available.

I entirely agree.

National ID levels a lot of playing fields: issuing it to everyone means you substantially reduce those at a disadvantage through lack of appropriate documentation.

I fear those who are opposed do have some level of naivety as to how difficult it can be to navigate the modern world if you're struggling to prove your identity to the standard required by law for various very basic things.

To be clear, since I think it's been misinterpreted, when I say "mandatory" in the first few posts of this thread I do not necessarily mean "mandatory to always carry" (I agree with some layer posters that this largely becomes defacto through convenience). I intended to mean "mandatory issuance", in the sense that the ID is issued to everyone equally (as opposed to passports & driving licences, which require application, separate entitlements and payment). "National ID" is a better term.

 

[Welly]

Reddit thread that I think is pertinent to this thread - example ID cards of all EEA member states shown and the comments below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ly84s8/models_of_the_identity_cards_of_the_countries_in/

Several things struck me, there is no standard EU ID card at all and each member state implement the cards differently. Sweden has a central database and any Swede can look it up; Germany implement ID cards at municipal level; Greece uses a card that is larger than credit card size and made up of a flimsy material that is hard to replace when they fall apart.

And they wonder why Anglophone countries protest against ID cards???

 

[signed]

Greece uses a card that is larger than credit card size and made up of a flimsy material that is hard to replace when they fall apart.

The informations that must be on the cards is mandated by EU Regulations, the styling is every member duty

And what you saw is likely the old one the Greek one is compliant and ID-1 since mid-2023

Germany implement ID cards at municipal level

Issuing is, but the Personalausweis is the same across the country,

 

[dcbwhaley]

British and different, aren't we? (And isn't that in part why HS2 is such a mess? We had to do our own thing and have the best and the fastest rather than just draw on the proven experience of other places.)

Known in my profession as the NIH syndrome : Not Invented Here

 

[DustyBin]

I entirely agree.

National ID levels a lot of playing fields: issuing it to everyone means you substantially reduce those at a disadvantage through lack of appropriate documentation.

I fear those who are opposed do have some level of naivety as to how difficult it can be to navigate the modern world if you're struggling to prove your identity to the standard required by law for various very basic things.

To be clear, since I think it's been misinterpreted, when I say "mandatory" in the first few posts of this thread I do not necessarily mean "mandatory to always carry" (I agree with some layer posters that this largely becomes defacto through convenience). I intended to mean "mandatory issuance", in the sense that the ID is issued to everyone equally (as opposed to passports & driving licences, which require application, separate entitlements and payment). "National ID" is a better term.

This is a fair point. I hadn't really thought about it, but I know people who don't have a valid passport or driving license and it does as you say disadvantage them. I'm not talking about odd outliers here either; they're just normal people in their early to mid 70s who don't drive and haven't been abroad for a while. I suppose you could argue that they should apply for passport (which they all could) but I imagine the cost is prohibitive to some.

Personally I'm completely against the mandatory carrying of ID as it's a bit "papers please". I'm not necessarily opposed to the general principle of a "National ID" however as there are certainly benefits. The issue I have (as I suspect many of those opposed do) is one of trust, and whilst I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist I am wary of mission creep. A centralised system that could (note could!) be linked to other centralised systems could(!) leave the population vulnerable to authoritarianism. It's happening elsewhere so it can be done. Again, I'm not saying that's what it's really all about because it probably isn't, not at this stage anyway, but I do think we should proceed with our eyes open and understand the potential risks and how they can be mitigated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I'm completely against the mandatory carrying of ID as it's a bit "papers please".

I agree. A card should exist (ideally one that is compatible with passport biometrics so a treaty could be signed to allow it to be used, on a reciprocal basis, for UK<->EU travel) but I would be most strongly opposed to compulsory carry, by which I mean police being able to demand its production with no reason to do so*. Plenty of countries have cards without compulsory carry, though.

* Equally I would have no issue with being required to produce it if accused by the Police of an actual offence, though, which could be done in the manner of a driving licence "producer", i.e. produce it within 7 days at a police station of your choice. And if actually arrested, I would be fine with the idea of the Police car being able to take you home to get it if you didn't have it on you.

 

[DustyBin]

I agree. A card should exist (ideally one that is compatible with passport biometrics so a treaty could be signed to allow it to be used, on a reciprocal basis, for UK<->EU travel) but I would be most strongly opposed to compulsory carry, by which I mean police being able to demand its production with no reason to do so*. Plenty of countries have cards without compulsory carry, though.

* Equally I would have no issue with being required to produce it if accused by the Police of an actual offence, though, which could be done in the manner of a driving licence "producer", i.e. produce it within 7 days at a police station of your choice. And if actually arrested, I would be fine with the idea of the Police car being able to take you home to get it if you didn't have it on you.

That's all fair enough really!

 

[stadler]

I agree. A card should exist (ideally one that is compatible with passport biometrics so a treaty could be signed to allow it to be used, on a reciprocal basis, for UK<->EU travel) but I would be most strongly opposed to compulsory carry, by which I mean police being able to demand its production with no reason to do so*. Plenty of countries have cards without compulsory carry, though.

* Equally I would have no issue with being required to produce it if accused by the Police of an actual offence, though, which could be done in the manner of a driving licence "producer", i.e. produce it within 7 days at a police station of your choice. And if actually arrested, I would be fine with the idea of the Police car being able to take you home to get it if you didn't have it on you.

But what you are suggesting is that it is compulsory to own an ID card but optional to carry it on you. Why should it be compulsory to own one. If you want to create an optional ID card then that is fine but people should not be forced to get one if they do not want one. It should remain optional. I personally have always had a passport so why would i want an ID card. I have no interest in having two separate documents. It would just be an annoyance for myself and so many other people to have two documents instead of one. That is such a backwards step.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what you are suggesting is that it is compulsory to own an ID card but optional to carry it on you. Why should it be compulsory to own one.

Because I think it is a reasonable part of living with the benefits and protections provided by the country you are living in that you should be able to prove who you are in order to control receipt of those benefits and protections.

If you want to create an optional ID card then that is fine but people should not be forced to get one if they do not want one. It should remain optional. I personally have always had a passport so why would i want an ID card. I have no interest in having two separate documents. It would just be an annoyance for myself and so many other people to have two documents instead of one. That is such a backwards step.

Much more convenient to carry than a passport, just slipping nicely into your wallet or the back of your phone case. I get duplication with a driving licence, but you don't have to carry that either so it's a bit irrelevant.

 

[stadler]

Because I think it is a reasonable part of living with the benefits and protections provided by the country you are living in that you should be able to prove who you are in order to control receipt of those benefits and protections.



Much more convenient to carry than a passport, just slipping nicely into your wallet or the back of your phone case. I get duplication with a driving licence, but you don't have to carry that either so it's a bit irrelevant.

We already have other ways to prove who you are. We have managed for decades without an ID card and we do not seem to have any major issues with people proving who they are.

I am still very much against making it compulsory to own one. But if you are going to make it compulsory to own than surely you could make it compulsory to own either a passport or an ID card. That would seem like a much more common sense approach. That way everyone would own an ID document (either a passport or an ID card or both if they prefer) and people who already have a passport would not be required to get an ID card if they did not want one.

I suppose it is personal preference but i personally much prefer the larger size of passports over ID cards. The fact that a passport is larger and thicker means it is much harder to lose and easier to find.

 

[ainsworth74]

Much more convenient to carry than a passport, just slipping nicely into your wallet or the back of your phone case. I get duplication with a driving licence, but you don't have to carry that either so it's a bit irrelevant.

Quite. The only reason I carry my driving licence about is so I have some ID. If I had a proper ID card the driving licence would live with the cars V5C in a filing cabinet at home!

 

[ArranArchie]

A card should exist (ideally one that is compatible with passport biometrics so a treaty could be signed to allow it to be used, on a reciprocal basis, for UK<->EU travel) ...

I agree with this sentiment. In 2008(ish) when the government last tried to make a national ID card, I hoped it'd be usable for EU travel and be sufficient for the countries that demand you have ID at all times. Then the coalition scrapped it and that was the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am still very much against making it compulsory to own one. But if you are going to make it compulsory to own than surely you could make it compulsory to own either a passport or an ID card. That would seem like a much more common sense approach. That way everyone would own an ID document (either a passport or an ID card or both if they prefer) and people who already have a passport would not be required to get an ID card if they did not want one.

I suppose it is personal preference but i personally much prefer the larger size of passports over ID cards. The fact that a passport is larger and thicker means it is much harder to lose and easier to find.

I find a card easier to keep safe than a booklet to be honest. It just sits in the card slot of my wallet. If you don't carry a wallet, many phone cases have equivalent slots.

I don't travel outside the EU that often, so TBH if a card had EU travel features I'd just not bother with a passport unless specifically planning a trip somewhere that needed it. I suspect passport ownership in EU countries with ID cards is on the low side for that reason.

Arguably with an ID card we could do away with physical driving licences, but like with the counterpart there'd need to be some sort of standard for it across countries or it'd be a pain if driving abroad. Though again I've driven abroad about 3-4 times ever, so maybe the driving licence card could be optional - just show the police ID and they could look it up.

 

[DarloRich]

No you may not

To me it's an issue of ever more criminal offences for petty nonsense. If the police really feel that they need to work out who you are then let them arrest you, having met the necessary thresholds for an arrest, which then engages the various requirements and protections that come with that. Rather than having the opportunity to think "Don't like the look of that fella, lets demand his ID and see if he's got it or not". As we've seen before the police can be pretty poor at using powers like that (see the stop & search fiasco from back in the day). If the police want to work out who you are then they're going to work it out one way or another of course. For instance if they arrested me right now I've got my phone which has my name, age and address in my emergency contact info, I've got bank cards with my name on it, my driving licence with my photo, name and address on it, etc etc. But they can't demand that I prove who I am, and if I can't do it then arrest me for that failure.

To me that feels like quite an important distinction. They need to have a reasonable suspicion of an actual offence having been committed (or that one is going to be committed) right now before they start arresting or detaining people. Rather than just being able to go up to people and demand they hand over ID or face arrest.

Unless you can think of a way of compelling people to carry an ID without the threat of criminal sanction?

I do not suggest people should be arrested for failing to carry an ID card. That seems silly and disproportionate.

Personally I think some kind of "producer" arrangement would work. Same as the driving license in the olden days. It is /used to be an offense not to produce your license, MOT and insurance when requested to do so by the police. In the absence of any aggravating circumstances you weren't hauled off to jail for failing to do so. You were given 14 (?) days to produce that paperwork at a police station. It was a pain but bearable. Why would the same not happen with an ID card? You would only move on to more formal sanctions if you failed to comply with the producer.

Also, how often do decent folk interact with the old bill? I suspect I am not typical due to going to the football! They haven't got time to stop everyone they see and ask to see an ID card. They cant even investigate proper crimes!

However I suspect that by having a digital ID card the number of people unable to offer one when challenged would be quite small. Unless there is some aggravating factor I wouldn't support arresting someone for failing to carry an ID card. We all forget things from time to time after all.

Frankly people should just buy a modern phone and be done with it. I cant abide people who revel in being contrarians! I would make THAT an arrestable offence!

but we have everything to fear, given the amount of surveillance that we're subjected to these days.

Such as? Can you give an example? How would that differ from having a mobile phone in your pocket at all times? ( I am sure you will say you don't have one but most people do)

Would those participants on here who are keen advocates of the mandatory carrying of ID cards, be happy to go that next step, and be microchipped like some pets are?

Genuine question.

I suspect some kind of technological implants will be available quite soon frankly! The obvious destination is exactly what you describe.

They haven't said why it should be mandatory carry or why they are ok with making it an arrestable offence though.

I don't think it should be an arrestable offence without some aggravating circumstances but it should be punishable with a fine after failing to respond to a "producer" or with imprisonment for repeat offenders failing to pay the fine.

That seems fairly obvious and non controversial to me

When I go out for my Sunday morning walk at the weekend I very rarely carry anything at all with me, other than my keys. No phone, no cards, nothing at all. Perhaps a fiver in a pocket if it's a hot day and I get thirsty or something, but that would be it.

Similar thing with dog walkers I suppose. Are we really saying that they'll need to carry their ID card with them every time they take the dog out for a walk around the block?

Most people take thier phone. I take mine when I go out for a walk as I might listen to a podcast or may need to summon help if I fall in the canal!

As I say above - there is no way the polis are going to stop everyone they see and demand an ID card. That is just silly. Do they stop you now and demand your id evidence? in opposing such an idea try to be realistic!

As i say my interaction with the fuzz is more common, I expect, than the average decent upstanding citizen. How often have you interacted with the police in a lifetime? No many I bet. Why would that change with an ID card?

 

[DustyBin]

I suspect some kind of technological implants will be available quite soon frankly! The obvious destination is exactly what you describe.

They're very much available (or were) in Sweden. Not for "National ID" purposes, but I see no reason why they couldn't be.

 

[66701GBRF]

As I say above - there is no way the polis are going to stop everyone they see and demand an ID card. That is just silly. Do they stop you now and demand your id evidence? in opposing such an idea try to be realistic!

They don't do that now because there is no law or requirement to stop and ID unless the officer reasonably suspects you of being involved in a crime or certain other factors are at play. By making mandatory carry a legality this gives the police complete power to stop whoever they like and whenever they like. That is a police state and is not police by consent.

Why should I have to ID myself just for walking down the street or sitting on a park bench.

I think it is you that needs to be realistic.

 

[DarloRich]

That is a police state and is not police by consent.

Why should I have to ID myself just for walking down the street or sitting on a park bench.

I think it is you that needs to be realistic.

I assume they will be using the rubber truncheons and placing electrodes on the private parts of poets and trade unionist's in the blink of an eye? A police state? For goodness sake.

I maintain the police are simply not going to be stopping everyone on the street and demanding ID. They haven't got the resources. How often have you interacted with the police in your lawful business?

Shall we be sensible in our opposition eh?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

As i say my interaction with the fuzz is more common, I expect, than the average decent upstanding citizen. How often have you interacted with the police in a lifetime? No many I bet. Why would that change with an ID card?

We should be careful about generalisations on such things. I'm a middle-aged white british man and I have had precisely zero notable interactions with the Police in my life.

It is demonstrably the case that people with a different set of characteristics to me are vastly more likely to interact with the Police than I am, and we really ought to consider what their experiences look like compared to, for example, mine.

 

[gswindale]

What I don't understand in this discussion is this:
We know the Police are under-resourced and struggle to investigate many crimes, so why do people think that PC Plod on his rare trip down a rural lane in Somerset is going to suddenly demand to see the ID of a group of walkers coming out of a field?

Given the relatively low prevalence of Police on the streets on a day-to-day basis, I think this fear is slightly unfounded. Would they really want the admin work of doing so?

I personally would support the introduction of a national ID card that incorporates the driving licence and passport functionality.

 

[66701GBRF]

I assume they will be using the rubber truncheons and placing electrodes on the private parts of poets and trade unionist's in the blink of an eye? A police state? For goodness sake.

I maintain the police are simply not going to be stopping everyone on the street and demanding ID. They haven't got the resources. How often have you interacted with the police in your lawful business?

Shall we be sensible in our opposition eh?

Lets not be too patronising when discussing differing opinions.

 

[stadler]

What I don't understand in this discussion is this:
We know the Police are under-resourced and struggle to investigate many crimes, so why do people think that PC Plod on his rare trip down a rural lane in Somerset is going to suddenly demand to see the ID of a group of walkers coming out of a field?

Given the relatively low prevalence of Police on the streets on a day-to-day basis, I think this fear is slightly unfounded. Would they really want the admin work of doing so?

I personally would support the introduction of a national ID card that incorporates the driving licence and passport functionality.

Incorporating a passport in to an ID card would never be possible. That would require every country in the world to agree to accept an ID card instead of a passport and require every country in the world to abolish passport stamps. That is just never going to happen.

Incorporating a driving licence in to an ID card would be easier. You could simply have the ID card on one side and then the driving entitlements on the other side if you are permitted to drive. If you are not permitted to drive then the driving entitlements would just be blank.

 

[sor]

Incorporating a passport in to an ID card would never be possible. That would require every country in the world to agree to accept an ID card instead of a passport and require every country in the world to abolish passport stamps. That is just never going to happen.

Incorporating a driving licence in to an ID card would be easier. You could simply have the ID card on one side and then the driving entitlements on the other side if you are permitted to drive. If you are not permitted to drive then the driving entitlements would just be blank.

More and more countries, including the UK and the Schengen countries within the EU, are moving towards e-visas and digital records of entries and exits. Of course it won't work in every country from day one, but there's going to be an increasing appetite for using a hard-wearing plastic card instead of a tatty book.

The Blair era ID card was accepted for EU travel, and the UK continued to accept EU ID cards as valid documentation until Brexit. (it still accepts them for EU citizens with settled status)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Incorporating a passport in to an ID card would never be possible. That would require every country in the world to agree to accept an ID card instead of a passport and require every country in the world to abolish passport stamps. That is just never going to happen.

Incorporating a driving licence in to an ID card would be easier. You could simply have the ID card on one side and then the driving entitlements on the other side if you are permitted to drive. If you are not permitted to drive then the driving entitlements would just be blank.

EU ID cards are already used for travel. If, when we were in the EU, we had had one, we could have done too.

Enabling the use of a new ID card for that purpose would just require signing a treaty.

 

[The exile]

They don't do that now because there is no law or requirement to stop and ID unless the officer reasonably suspects you of being involved in a crime or certain other factors are at play. By making mandatory carry a legality this gives the police complete power to stop whoever they like and whenever they like. That is a police state and is not police by consent.

Why should I have to ID myself just for walking down the street or sitting on a park bench.

I think it is you that needs to be realistic.

Clearly one can’t generalise from one nation/culture to another but I lived for 12 years in one of the European countries where carrying ID is theoretically a requirement and was not once required to do so in circumstances where you would not expect to need to in this country. Whether it would have been the same if I didn’t look suitably Saxon, I don’t know…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2025 ==

Incorporating a passport in to an ID card would never be possible. That would require every country in the world to agree to accept an ID card instead of a passport and require every country in the world to abolish passport stamps. That is just never going to happen.

No - but the reverse can apply. Make your national ID card simply the ID page of the passport and you simply have a choice of full passport or just the national ID version.

 

[gswindale]

Incorporating a passport in to an ID card would never be possible. That would require every country in the world to agree to accept an ID card instead of a passport and require every country in the world to abolish passport stamps. That is just never going to happen.

Why not?

The stamps are just a record, which could quite easily be stored in a database (and probably already is!)

 

[DarloRich]

We should be careful about generalisations on such things. I'm a middle-aged white british man and I have had precisely zero notable interactions with the Police in my life.

It is demonstrably the case that people with a different set of characteristics to me are vastly more likely to interact with the Police than I am, and we really ought to consider what their experiences look like compared to, for example, mine.

I agree entirely - I am a middle aged white bloke but I have had a lot of interactions with the police. If you go to football often enough you get used to your civil liberties being infringed! I have been arrested for being in a pub before. I was quickly let go but still! Now, I am not suggesting that is the same as someone from an ethnic minority background as I fully acknowledge they are more likely to experience the poor end of police interactions and that could worsen under a compulsory identity card regime.

However, the answer is to recruit and train better police people surely?

Lets not be too patronising when discussing differing opinions.

don't be hyperbolic in your criticism. It cheapens your point.

Could you explain why you think having an identify card creates a police state? Is Belgium a police state?

 

[signed]

Incorporating a passport in to an ID card would never be possible. That would require every country in the world to agree to accept an ID card instead of a passport and require every country in the world to abolish passport stamps. That is just never going to happen.

This is already reality in a lot of countries, most notably Australia and New Zealand. They only accept passports but that could very easily be changed. And every nation in the world can read a EU ID card, as they are ICAO 9303 compliant, which is the same biometric standard as a passport.

Apart from most developing nations and some EU countries, all entries/exits are recorded electronically anyways.

At the end of the day, in a border situation, passport or ID is just a pointer to a file on a database somewhere.

 

[DustyBin]

They don't do that now because there is no law or requirement to stop and ID unless the officer reasonably suspects you of being involved in a crime or certain other factors are at play. By making mandatory carry a legality this gives the police complete power to stop whoever they like and whenever they like. That is a police state and is not police by consent.

Why should I have to ID myself just for walking down the street or sitting on a park bench.

I think it is you that needs to be realistic.

I don't think @DarloRich is advocating for mandatory carry (they'll correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure!). If a "producer" arrangement were to be introduced it's likely to have minimal impact day to day for the reasons explained. In fact I'm not sure it would be used very often at all as presumably the existing process of establishing ID would suffice in most cases (I have first-hand experience!). I think it would be quite a narrow set of circumstances whereby the Police weren't satisfied with the details provided, but felt comfortable giving an individual X number of days to report into the station.

Again I'm on the fence here, but my concerns are more around mission creep and how a centralised system could be mis-used.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think @DarloRich is advocating for mandatory carry

Correct - i am undecided about mandatory carry - part of me thinks if you go to the bother of creating a national system you may as well carry the card. I am certainly against arrest, unless accompanied by some aggravating factors, simply for not having the card on you!