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I didn't say reduce all fares to the level current Railcards do. I said reduce fares. The level they are reduced by would be determined by calculating the current net cost of administering the current system, policy decisions such as whether to retain age related discounts but simply require proof of age to be carried instead of a Railcard, modelled changes in fare sales following the change, etc.
Which neatly ignores my second question about how the railway makes up the loss of income, from the lower priced tickets. How are you going to overcome that?
Sure, and like I say, you can keep discounted fares for young people or seniors, just ditch the Railcard aspect. When Toby Carvery do an over 60s discount they don't require people to pay and sign up for a Senior CarveryCard. 16 year olds getting a cinema discount don't need to pay and sign up for a 16-17 Saver CinemaCard, etc. My mum travelling in a powered wheelchair on Eurostar, TGV, and in Disneyland didn't need to sign up and pay for a Disabled EurostarCard, Disabled TGVCard, Disabled DisneylandCard, etc.
Being in a wheel chair is an obvious disability. I have a Disabled Rail Card due to a hidden disability, so how are you going to get that to work?
And why should I have to explain to someone who probably has no medical background what my disability is?
If anything the current setup deters occasional travellers from getting the discounted fares, because they may think the £30 or whatever Railcard fee isn't worth it.
Sure, and like I say, you can keep discounted fares for young people or seniors, just ditch the Railcard aspect. When Toby Carvery do an over 60s discount they don't require people to pay and sign up for a Senior CarveryCard. 16 year olds getting a cinema discount don't need to pay and sign up for a 16-17 Saver CinemaCard, etc. My mum travelling in a powered wheelchair on Eurostar, TGV, and in Disneyland didn't need to sign up and pay for a Disabled EurostarCard, Disabled TGVCard, Disabled DisneylandCard, etc.
On the other hand, if you want free or discounted bus fares, you have to sign up for a concessionary pass. There is a reason why transport providers require a pass. With the schemes you mention, someone will verify your eligibility to the discount before you get the product/service, either at the time you request it or when you turn up. Railway or bus operators can't verify your eligibility when a ticket is bought on-line, so eligibility would need to be proved when you turn up. In other words, you wouldn't be able to just tap-in on a bus or use the automatic barriers at a station. I can't see that being very popular.
The volume of people needing to be let through the barriers manually in order to prove their eligibility to the discount would probably mean that most checks would be pretty perfunctory (as in those places where the barriers are already set up to reject railcard discounted tickets). And with on-board checks, we would probably have even more cases of people buying a discounted ticket that they aren't entitled to or can't prove their eligibility than we do now of people travelling without a railcard. Not to mention all the arguments over what is and isn't good enough proof of eligibility. A concessionary pass/railcard is an unambiguous proof of eligibility.
It seems to me that a scheme such as you suggest would enable more people to travel with a discounted ticket, but also significantly increase the level of fraud. So a lose, lose for the railway.
I think that there is scope for combining local authority concessionary bus passes and railcards. And also making railcards into smartcards, that tickets can be stored on and used to operate barriers.
What percentage of tickets, outside of the morning peak, are sold with a railcard discount?
I've been on trains several times where everyone has a discounted ticket (and they actually have the card, not trying it on). Guards seem shocked when scanning e-tickets when it doesn't make the discounted ticket noise.
What percentage of tickets, outside of the morning peak, are sold with a railcard discount?
I've been on trains several times where everyone has a discounted ticket (and they actually have the card, not trying it on). Guards seem shocked when scanning e-tickets when it doesn't make the discounted ticket noise.
Ah, but you'd still need the undiscounted tickets even if nobody bought them, as they're used to inflate the unpaid fares element of settlements offered to people who've been caught short-faring, doughnutting etc. You have to pretend they'd have paid the Anytime fare even if they always travelled at times where off-peak or super off-peak tickets are valid, and you have to assume they wouldn't have used their Railcard, even if they had one and would have been entitled to the discount on the journeys concerned.
Is enforcement/barrier throughput part of the motivation for not permitting railcards at peak times? As opposed to just train/infrastructure congestion in general?
On the other hand, if you want free or discounted bus fares, you have to sign up for a concessionary pass. There is a reason why transport providers require a pass. With the schemes you mention, someone will verify your eligibility to the discount before you get the product/service, either at the time you request it or when you turn up. Railway or bus operators can't verify your eligibility when a ticket is bought on-line, so eligibility would need to be proved when you turn up. In other words, you wouldn't be able to just tap-in on a bus or use the automatic barriers at a station. I can't see that being very popular.
The volume of people needing to be let through the barriers manually in order to prove their eligibility to the discount would probably mean that most checks would be pretty perfunctory (as in those places where the barriers are already set up to reject railcard discounted tickets).
And with on-board checks, we would probably have even more cases of people buying a discounted ticket that they aren't entitled to or can't prove their eligibility than we do now of people travelling without a railcard.
I don't see any argument for that at all. if somebody wants to buy a discounted ticket they're already working on the hope they won't get it inspected. Whether that's inspecting a Railcard or a driving licence is of no consequence to them.
Not to mention all the arguments over what is and isn't good enough proof of eligibility. A concessionary pass/railcard is an unambiguous proof of eligibility.
It seems to me that a scheme such as you suggest would enable more people to travel with a discounted ticket, but also significantly increase the level of fraud. So a lose, lose for the railway.
Can't see any argument showing this would be the case. At the moment on the other hand, many passengers who ought to get discounted tickets, don't, because of the barriers and cost involved.
I think that there is scope for combining local authority concessionary bus passes and railcards. And also making railcards into smartcards, that tickets can be stored on and used to operate barriers.
Those local authority passes could just be included in the proof options.
Many other countries manage to do this, both with transport and non-transport services. I still don't see what makes UK rail so spectacularly different that we need to make people apply for and pay £30+ for a Railcard. It's just another way in which the railway holds passengers in contempt. You can have a discount, but only if you pay us up front for this discount card which you might not make your money back on.
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Which neatly ignores my second question about how the railway makes up the loss of income, from the lower priced tickets. How are you going to overcome that?
Is enforcement/barrier throughput part of the motivation for not permitting railcards at peak times? As opposed to just train/infrastructure congestion in general?
Many railcards are valid in the morning oeak, all railcards are valid in the evening peak.. Gateline throughput won't be a consideration as to what time of day a railcard is valid.
I think not requiring a Railcard is something that works in countries where there is the concept of being registered disabled and carrying a disability ID card, something which is true in Germany (for example) but not the UK. Stuff like Disabled Railcards and priority seat cards (some TOCs do the latter) are a transport specific proxy for that as the UK doesn't have it.
I think not requiring a Railcard is something that works in countries where there is the concept of being registered disabled and carrying a disability ID card, something which is true in Germany (for example) but not the UK. Stuff like Disabled Railcards and priority seat cards (some TOCs do the latter) are a transport specific proxy for that as the UK doesn't have it.
Yes I think Disabled Railcard is potentially the exception due to the long list of potential proof options, though I would prefer the UK to simply adopt a national disability card scheme as it could be used for many things.
That said, I've worked in roles where we've had to interpret a wide range of documents for establishing eligibility for membership, or membership discounts, or membership eligibility exceptions, and it just requires training.
This whole post doesn't mention the cases where someone visibly over 15 uses a child ticket to travel. At the gateline they can just say they were born in 2010 and the barrier staff have no power to disallow travel. I think if they aren't obviously a child then they should need some form of ID to prove it, similarly to under child/young adult discounts on buses - I've had many bus drivers refuse under 20s discounts before I had any ID.
Another thing that I have noticed with railcards is that NR/railcard have emailed me reminding me to renew. Do other retailers not do this?
Yes I think Disabled Railcard is potentially the exception due to the long list of potential proof options, though I would prefer the UK to simply adopt a national disability card scheme as it could be used for many things.
That said, I've worked in roles where we've had to interpret a wide range of documents for establishing eligibility for membership, or membership discounts, or membership eligibility exceptions, and it just requires training.
There is a big difference between providing the proof once to a member of staff who can be specially trained, when you apply for membership, and having to prove eligibility every time you travel to someone who is under time pressure to check an entire train.
When you add up the number of things that potentially can be used to prove disability and age, in all their different regional and national forms, that is a great swathe of documents. Expecting a ticket inspector to recognise them all is unrealistic.
There is a big difference between providing the proof once to a member of staff who can be specially trained, when you apply for membership, and having to prove eligibility every time you travel to someone who is under time pressure to check an entire train.
When you add up the number of things that potentially can be used to prove disability and age, in all their different regional and national forms, that is a great swathe of documents. Expecting a ticket inspector to recognise them all is unrealistic.
I think not requiring a Railcard is something that works in countries where there is the concept of being registered disabled and carrying a disability ID card, something which is true in Germany (for example) but not the UK. Stuff like Disabled Railcards and priority seat cards (some TOCs do the latter) are a transport specific proxy for that as the UK doesn't have it.
As a senior citizen, I have a concessionary travel card issued by my local authority that entitles me to free bus travel, and some limited free train travel. They also issue similar cards to disabled people. So we effectively already have ID cards for elderly and disabled people.
I currently have to carry both my concessionary travel card and my Railcard around with me. Surely the concessionary travel card could also act as my Railcard. This would benefit the passengers, not only by only needing to carry around one card, but also the concessionary passes are issued for free.
And the Welsh government are currently trialling a similar card for young people, entitling them to discounted bus fares. Again, that could surely act as a Railcard.
Unfortunately I doubt that the political will to integrate the schemes is there, particularly in Westminster. I get the impresion that the Railcard scheme is something that the TOCs don't really like, as it is so open to abuse, and are only perpetuating it because they have been told to, and that the DoT are only perpetuating because there would be a massive outcry if they attempted to get rid of it. So it is tolerated, but with no enthusiasm to improve it.
Perhaps when GBR is fully in control, and there is a UK-wide smartcard scheme rather than the current hotch potch of incompatible TOC schemes, the time might come for making Railcards into smartcards on which your tickets can be loaded. So presenting the smartcard at a barrier or to an RPI would inherently prove your elegibility.
Perhaps when GBR is fully in control, and there is a UK-wide smartcard scheme rather than the current hotch potch of incompatible TOC schemes, the time might come for making Railcards into smartcards on which your tickets can be loaded. So presenting the smartcard at a barrier or to an RPI would inherently prove your elegibility.
My, and I think just about everyone's, concessionary bus pass is ITSO compatible. It would certainly reduce my card load for it to be capable of loading train tickets. I don't know if there's any desire to eliminate the physical plastic format for Railcards, but it would be equally useful for those to be usable as Smartcards too. A problem might be expiry dates. My current GWR and SWR Smartcards have expiry dates, but they are well into the future compared even with a 3-yr Railcard. Issuing Railcards in a Smartcard format should be possible, as all ticket checkers are now equipped with the gear to check such things.
But why not digital on my smartphone? OK, but my phone is perfectly functional in most aspects, except for battery life. I am always conscious of the need to ensure it won't expire at a critical moment, but don't want to add to the millions of tonnes of waste phones that are polluting the planet.
My Smartcards need no power. They are a smart solution to ticketing and concession eligibility.
As a senior citizen, I have a concessionary travel card issued by my local authority that entitles me to free bus travel, and some limited free train travel. They also issue similar cards to disabled people. So we effectively already have ID cards for elderly and disabled people.
I currently have to carry both my concessionary travel card and my Railcard around with me. Surely the concessionary travel card could also act as my Railcard. This would benefit the passengers, not only by only needing to carry around one card, but also the concessionary passes are issued for free.
Currently I am of an age where I can get a Senior Railcard but not a bus pass, so to do this we would have to align the railcard and bus pass ages.
Not all holders of a bus pass issued for disabilities are entitled under the current rules for a Disabled Railcard, I know of one person who got a blue badge and could therefore get a bus pass but didn't have qualifying criteria for a railcard. So here again alignment would be needed.
Allegedly neither does an iPhone to use the transit-mode debit card loaded on it. I don't quite know how this works, whether it's based on a relatively small residual amount of battery lasting a very long time or whether it's based on there being an actual proximity-card chip in the case - anyone know?
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Not all holders of a bus pass issued for disabilities are entitled under the current rules for a Disabled Railcard, I know of one person who got a blue badge and could therefore get a bus pass but didn't have qualifying criteria for a railcard. So here again alignment would be needed.
Although there's a fair amount of variability of eligibility across potential users of a unified card system, there are also a huge core number of those where everything aligns. That's what should be targeted initially, pulling in the edge cases later, where the balance of advantage suggests that the benefits merit it.
Allegedly neither does an iPhone to use the transit-mode debit card loaded on it. I don't quite know how this works, whether it's based on a relatively small residual amount of battery lasting a very long time or whether it's based on there being an actual proximity-card chip in the case - anyone know?
Set up Express Mode to use cards, passes, and keys with just a tap.
support.apple.com
Use Express Mode with power reserve
You might be able to use your Express Mode cards, passes, and keys on your iPhone, even when your device needs to be charged. Power reserve works for up to five hours with some cards, passes, and keys that have Express Mode turned on.
To check the cards, passes, and keys available for use with power reserve, press the side button or the Home button when your iPhone needs to be charged. However, doing this often might significantly reduce the power reserve. If you turn off your iPhone, this feature isn't available.
Noted. Unfortunately I think that we are only going to get a discount scheme that is better for passengers if it also has significant benefits for the TOCs, or GBR in future. Significantly reducing fraud is the obvious win that might persuade the rail industry to change. Having something that inherently combines your ticket and Railcard in one "thing" is the obvious solution that I can see. That might be a physical smartcard, or it could be a digital equivalent (such as a railcard app on your phone).
Do any of the concessionary bus pass schemes have digital versions, or do they all require a physical card?
I had forgotten about the difference between England and Scotland regarding this (I am ignorantof the rules in Wales or NorthernIreland), so another anomaly, because I have no doubt that any alignment of ages in England would be to State Pension age, so we could have a situation where Edward England isn't entitled to an age related rail discount but Stewart Scotland is, despite him being younger than Edward.
I remember Alan Williams of Modern Railways suggesting that the age related concessionary bus pass should also double as a Senior Railcard. That was possibly just after the bus passes in England became national (having been limited to local authority areas before that), and 60 was the universal eligibility age. A very long time ago!
I don't think that the national differences of qualifying age are an issue. The real thing is that those passes are free, and GBR will certainly miss the income from Railcard fees.
I remember Alan Williams of Modern Railways suggesting that the age related concessionary bus pass should also double as a Senior Railcard. That was possibly just after the bus passes in England became national (having been limited to local authority areas before that), and 60 was the universal eligibility age. A very long time ago!
Interestingly pre-ENCTS Lancashire County Council allowed you to choose between a discounted bus pass or a free Senior Railcard depending what your most common mode of transport was.
I had forgotten about the difference between England and Scotland regarding this (I am ignorantof the rules in Wales or NorthernIreland), so another anomaly, because I have no doubt that any alignment of ages in England would be to State Pension age, so we could have a situation where Edward England isn't entitled to an age related rail discount but Stewart Scotland is, despite him being younger than Edward.
Exacythe situation that currently exists with bus travel. If those in England are happy voting for governments that want to deprive them of discounts that are available in the other nations, that is up to them.
Exacythe situation that currently exists with bus travel. If those in England are happy voting for governments that want to deprive them of discounts that are available in the other nations, that is up to them.
In my ticket checking duties I've noticed of late that there seems to be a rapid increase in people purposely selecting railcards that they don't actually own and availing of discounts they are not entitled - and it seems way too easy to do. Is it time to link railcards to TOC/Trainline*/TrainPal/Trip.com/insert other agents here accounts to stop people doing this? The integration of QR codes in railcard products make this much easier. Even paper ones could theoretically be printed with QR codes, as TIS' like TTK can already print CCSTs with barcodes.
I appreciate there may be some hurdles, and it wouldn't be a foolproof system but it kinda seems like a logical step...
*I know Trainline is already half way there, with their "show railcard" icon on in app e-tickets.
This is a rotten idea as suppose I buy a non refundable advance and then dont travel why on earth should I lose the cost of a railcard if I did not have one when I bought the ticket
PS on the same theme I continue to annoy Travelodge by not notifying them I am coming until check in
Why? because if my Dad pays my £20.00 hound fee on a non cancellable booking and then we don't show Travelodge will happily trouser the £20.00 even if He proactively cancels the booking
They also do this with prepaid breakfasts
Regards Calleigh the Cocker Spaniel
The situation with bus passes only being valid in their home nation is very poor for those who live close to a border, and regularly make cross border journeys. Unfortunately it seems to be tolerated as most bus journeys tend to be fairly local, and so the majority of the populations of the various nations are not impacted. It does seem very petty, a way of Westminster deliberately making an issue out of devolution.
I doubt that such a situation would be acceptable for rail discounts, as a significant number of journeys are long distance. If concessionary bus passes were to be acceptable alternatives to Railcards, they would have to be accepted GB wide, for rail discounts at least. They might still only be valid for free bus travel in their home nations, and they might still have different age criteria.
If I were to go back into full-time education, or if I were to develop a long-term condition that amounted to a disability, I would much rather establish my entitlement to a Railcard once, at or before the point of purchase of any discounted tickets.
I would not want to have the matter re-opened every time I travel.
There are always edge cases: I've observed people camped out at ticket office windows for who knows how long trying to establish their eligibility for a Railcard. Supervisors have been called over. Maybe they're just not entitled, but if they are entitled and it takes them half an hour to have that discussion, then that is not a discussion that should be happening more than once a year. Nor should it be happening at gatelines or revenue blocks or on trains. That is almost certainly why Railcards exist: to relieve ticket sellers and inspectors of the task of establishing or judging eligibility for concessions.
