Should railcards be linked/verified to online accounts?

[thelongestroad]

In my ticket checking duties I've noticed of late that there seems to be a rapid increase in people purposely selecting railcards that they don't actually own and availing of discounts they are not entitled - and it seems way too easy to do. Is it time to link railcards to TOC/Trainline*/TrainPal/Trip.com/insert other agents here accounts to stop people doing this? The integration of QR codes in railcard products make this much easier. Even paper ones could theoretically be printed with QR codes, as TIS' like TTK can already print CCSTs with barcodes.

I appreciate there may be some hurdles, and it wouldn't be a foolproof system but it kinda seems like a logical step...

*I know Trainline is already half way there, with their "show railcard" icon on in app e-tickets.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Tickets are not always purchased by the railcard holder; for example, an employer may buy tickets for an employee.
A railcard only has to be valid at the time of travel, not at the time of purchase. If I have a railcard with 89 days of remaining validity, I wouldn't be able to buy a ticket for 90 days in the future if this restriction was enforced.

 

[fandroid]

If I have a railcard with 89 days of remaining validity, I wouldn't be able to buy a ticket for 90 days in the future if this restriction was enforced.

That is a very niche requirement. It's reasonable that if fraudulent purchase of discounted tickets becomes a serious issue then some of the old flexibilities may have to be sacrificed. However, it could be entertained in the example you quote. Link the ticket to the Railcard used for purchase, and carry that on the journey, in addition to the new Railcard that's valid during the journey. It should be possible for the online seller to flag up a warning that a renewed Railcard must be carried on that journey.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

That is a very niche requirement. It's reasonable that if fraudulent purchase of discounted tickets becomes a serious issue then some of the old flexibilities may have to be sacrificed. However, it could be entertained in the example you quote. Link the ticket to the Railcard used for purchase, and carry that on the journey, in addition to the new Railcard that's valid during the journey. It should be possible for the online seller to flag up a warning that a renewed Railcard must be carried on that journey.

Niche argument? I'm coming back to the UK in 2 months and currently looking at buying train tickets with a 16–25 railcard. I shouldn't have to waste two months of validity because I wanted to book ahead!

 

[jfollows]

It’s not a niche requirement at all.
I have bought tickets with a Two Together railcard discount for travel in January, and I don’t have a valid railcard because my current one expires in November. In the past I have done without a Two Together railcard for periods of weeks or months between expiration and renewal because I had no trips for which I needed the railcard.
Before I turned 60 I bought tickets with a Senior Railcard discount, despite never having had one - clearly - but I did do when I travelled.
It’s up to me to hold a valid railcard when I travel, and have often not had one when buying a ticket.
If the railway wants to sell advance tickets it has to live with this.

 

[Hadders]

In my ticket checking duties I've noticed of late that there seems to be a rapid increase in people purposely selecting railcards that they don't actually own and availing of discounts they are not entitled - and it seems way too easy to do. Is it time to link railcards to TOC/Trainline*/TrainPal/Trip.com/insert other agents here accounts to stop people doing this? The integration of QR codes in railcard products make this much easier. Even paper ones could theoretically be printed with QR codes, as TIS' like TTK can already print CCSTs with barcodes.

I appreciate there may be some hurdles, and it wouldn't be a foolproof system but it kinda seems like a logical step...

*I know Trainline is already half way there, with their "show railcard" icon on in app e-tickets.

This subject crops up quite frequently and is a difficult one for reasons mentioned by others.

Personally, I think we need to stop apps and websites 'remembering' automatically when purchasing tickets. This seems to be one of the largest problems in cases seen in the D&P section of the forum.

That is a very niche requirement.

I disagree. The move to more Advance tickets with people having to purchase weel ahead of travel to secure anything like a decent price this becomes even less of a niche requirement.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Tickets are not always purchased by the railcard holder; for example, an employer may buy tickets for an employee.
A railcard only has to be valid at the time of travel, not at the time of purchase. If I have a railcard with 89 days of remaining validity, I wouldn't be able to buy a ticket for 90 days in the future if this restriction was enforced.

The policy has become much looser during the privatisation years. Back in the 80s when I worked in the ticket office, you needed to show the Railcard to get a discount. If you were buying for your aunt/Granny/son, you needed to show their Railcard when buying - no-one was allowed a discount just by saying 'oh, I'm getting it for someone else...'. and you needed a valid Railcard both to buy and to travel - again, no-one would have got away with 'oh, I'll get one before I travel'.

The current problems can be attributed to the half cocked privatisation structure that simultaneously fractured the commercial base of the railway whilst mandating extensive industry-wide processes to be maintained. The destruction of a 'whole system' approach that managed fares, discounts and revenue protection in a single system has allowed a fundamentally analogue Railcard proposition to be perpetuated through self-service and digital ticketing systems without any form of validation whatsoever.

Change is finally happening but about 20 years later than it should have been tackled.

 

[redreni]

I'm interested in the link between this old chestnut and the recent discussion about the move to curtail refund rights, ostensibly to tackle refund fraud.

It was suggested on the NRCoT changes thread that you should be able to buy a ticket but delay the actual generation / issuance of the ticket (as you can already do for ToD and tickets issued to a Smartcard, but the proposal was to do the same for e-tickets) until you're actually ready to travel, and thus preserve your right to a refund on or after the day of travel provided the ticket hasn't been issued.

A further advantage of such a system might be that, if you did want to introduce a gate where you have to prove you've got the Railcard before you can get a Railcard-discounted ticket, you could have that gate at the point of issue, rather than at the point of purchase. That way you could book two months ahead to get a cheap price, wait until the day of travel to get the Railcard, and then download or collect your ticket.

How it would work technically I've no idea. I bought my current Railcard from the official site. I bought the previous two from railway station ticket offices. I buy tickets from a variety of retailers depending on the circumstances. They've always been physical Railcards. It wouldn't be at all convenient to have my Railcard on one retailer's app and then have to buy all my Railcard-discounted tickets from that retailer; in fact it would be anti-competitive and a real pain.

For some purchases, Amex cashback is important to me. For others, a search engine that is really good at splitting is important to me. For others, the ability to specify multiple via points or include/exclude TOCs is important to me. For others, the ability to rebook with no admin fee if my plans change is important to me.

Any system of Railcard validation before tickets are issued would, in my view, need to preserve the customer's right to shop around for tickets, and would have to work with any Railcard bought from anybody in any format.

 

[Kite159]

Personally, I think we need to stop apps and websites 'remembering' au

omatically when purchasing tickets. This seems to be one of the largest problems in cases seen in the D&P section of the forum.

Agreed, made it so people have to select the Railcard to apply it.

@thelongestroad I suspect part of it is down to not expecting the member of staff checking the tickets asking to see the Railcard so they think they can get away with it. Without realising that they are creating a large digital footprint so when they get caught out, it can get expensive. Like someone willingly selecting another Railcard when they hold a Network Railcard to bypass the minimum fare or time restrictions.

 

[James H]

A railcard only has to be valid at the time of travel, not at the time of purchase. If I have a railcard with 89 days of remaining validity, I wouldn't be able to buy a ticket for 90 days in the future if this restriction was enforced

I was impressed by how SNCF handles this - making an advance booking I was able to buy a railcard as part of the same transaction, with the railcard's 12-month validity beginning on my first day of travel.

 

[redreni]

The policy has become much looser during the privatisation years. Back in the 80s when I worked in the ticket office, you needed to show the Railcard to get a discount. If you were buying for your aunt/Granny/son, you needed to show their Railcard when buying - no-one was allowed a discount just by saying 'oh, I'm getting it for someone else...'. and you needed a valid Railcard both to buy and to travel - again, no-one would have got away with 'oh, I'll get one before I travel'.

The current problems can be attributed to the half cocked privatisation structure that simultaneously fractured the commercial base of the railway whilst mandating extensive industry-wide processes to be maintained. The destruction of a 'whole system' approach that managed fares, discounts and revenue protection in a single system has allowed a fundamentally analogue Railcard proposition to be perpetuated through self-service and digital ticketing systems without any form of validation whatsoever.

Change is finally happening but about 20 years later than it should have been tackled.

Right, but people didn't want to buy a Railcard two months before they wish to use it for the first time, thus making it a 10-month Railcard, even then. People in that situation were presumably just delaying the purchase of both the Railcard and the ticket until the day of travel, or at least not too long before it.

If you choose not to give any guarantee that the price the customer sees two months before they travel will still be available in half an hour's time, let alone in two months' time, then you've obviously created the situation where people quite legitimately want to buy the ticket now and leave the purchase of the Railcard until much later. It's a problem entirely of the rail industry's own making.

 

[AlterEgo]

Niche argument? I'm coming back to the UK in 2 months and currently looking at buying train tickets with a 16–25 railcard. I shouldn't have to waste two months of validity because I wanted to book ahead!

You wouldn't waste any validity if, like most sensible subscription based discounts, it's when you buy the ticket that matters, not when you use the product.

 

[redreni]

You wouldn't waste any validity if, like most sensible subscription based discounts, it's when you buy the ticket that matters, not when you use the product.

As long as it's okay to keep using the Railcard after it's expired provided the ticket was purchased before, that would be fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

As long as it's okay to keep using the Railcard after it's expired provided the ticket was purchased before, that would be fine.

Of course, so you lose no validity. It only has to be valid when you buy the ticket. Same as nearly every other subscription service there is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was impressed by how SNCF handles this - making an advance booking I was able to buy a railcard as part of the same transaction, with the railcard's 12-month validity beginning on my first day of travel.

It's quite easy to do this where you have names on tickets and compulsory national ID cards...

 

[Hadders]

The policy has become much looser during the privatisation years. Back in the 80s when I worked in the ticket office, you needed to show the Railcard to get a discount. If you were buying for your aunt/Granny/son, you needed to show their Railcard when buying - no-one was allowed a discount just by saying 'oh, I'm getting it for someone else...'. and you needed a valid Railcard both to buy and to travel - again, no-one would have got away with 'oh, I'll get one before I travel'.

The current problems can be attributed to the half cocked privatisation structure that simultaneously fractured the commercial base of the railway whilst mandating extensive industry-wide processes to be maintained. The destruction of a 'whole system' approach that managed fares, discounts and revenue protection in a single system has allowed a fundamentally analogue Railcard proposition to be perpetuated through self-service and digital ticketing systems without any form of validation whatsoever.

Change is finally happening but about 20 years later than it should have been tackled.

Back in the 1980s you generally didn't need to buy a ticket months ahead of travel to obtain a half decent price.

 

[Watershed]

I was impressed by how SNCF handles this - making an advance booking I was able to buy a railcard as part of the same transaction, with the railcard's 12-month validity beginning on my first day of travel.

Yes, being able to buy future-dated Railcards would get around this issue quite easily.

Although it's more hassle, I do think there is some justification for requiring Railcard details to be entered to get the discount. It prevents both accidental and intentional misapplication of the discount.

In the long term it provides a clear mental impetus for renewal and increases convenience if you are a regular customer (that is, after all, why the likes of Trainline save your entered Railcard type currently).

 

[lachlan]

Personally, I think we need to stop apps and websites 'remembering' automatically when purchasing tickets. This seems to be one of the largest problems in cases seen in the D&P section of the forum.

I buy a ticket every morning before going to work and wouldn't want to have that extra step every day to buy a ticket.

 

[yorkie]

In my ticket checking duties I've noticed of late that there seems to be a rapid increase in people purposely selecting railcards that they don't actually own and availing of discounts they are not entitled - and it seems way too easy to do. Is it time to link railcards to TOC/Trainline*/TrainPal/Trip.com/insert other agents here accounts to stop people doing this? The integration of QR codes in railcard products make this much easier. Even paper ones could theoretically be printed with QR codes, as TIS' like TTK can already print CCSTs with barcodes.

I appreciate there may be some hurdles, and it wouldn't be a foolproof system but it kinda seems like a logical step...

*I know Trainline is already half way there, with their "show railcard" icon on in app e-tickets.

How would your proposal work for parents buying tickets for their 16 year old children, or indeed people buying tickets for their senior parents?

How would it work when buying tickets for a group?

Would people be forced to renew Railcards before the start and/or expiry dates of the tickets?

Do you require all retailers to be able to validate Aztec codes associated with Railcards?

It's quite easy to do this where you have names on tickets and compulsory national ID cards...

Why should we be forced to nominate the names of people using the tickets?

Is it not reasonable to purchase tickets for a group and then to later decide who exactly is part of the group?

It seems to me that some people really are enemies of rail passengers and are determined to make rail even less attractive/competitive compared to private road transport!

 

[andy33gmail]

An alternative would be to have the ticket barriers require the railcard be scanned after the ticket

You could then offer people the option to link it at time of online purchase if they prefer

 

[fandroid]

How about Railcards that keep the same reference number and automatically renew on expiry using the remembered details? Making it an opt-out choice rather than opt-in. Obviously with a some form of block applied based on date for those based on (young) age. Subscription services do this all the time, and deal with issues like bank card expiry by sending reminders.

I accept that my earlier comment about "niche requirement" has been robustly put down. I don't often buy Advance tickets well in advance, so that's not top in my travel experience.

A lot of the problems that we face now are a direct result of both the digital age and the relentless push from the railway to grab more income. They just love the costs reduction and improved enforcement that online purchase of e-tickets give them, but have done little to bring everything else in line to reflect how passengers themselves wish to adapt to the new realities.

 

[yorkie]

An alternative would be to have the ticket barriers require the railcard be scanned after the ticket

You could then offer people the option to link it at time of online purchase if they prefer

That would cause congestion at some gatelines. How would it work for Family Railcards, disabled etc?

 

[andy33gmail]

That would cause congestion at some gatelines. How would it work for Family Railcards, disabled etc?

Which in fairness are all things the gates already cause problems with

 

[yorkie]

How about Railcards that keep the same reference number and automatically renew on expiry using the remembered details? Making it an opt-out choice rather than opt-in. Obviously with a some form of block applied based on date for those based on (young) age. Subscription services do this all the time, and deal with issues like bank card expiry by sending reminders.

That could be optional, but I don't see how you could mandate it, and that wouldn't 'solve' all the 'issues'.

Which in fairness are all things the gates already cause problems with

In that case, all the more reason not to make congestion even worse!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should we be forced to nominate the names of people using the tickets?

Is it not reasonable to purchase tickets for a group and then to later decide who exactly is part of the group?

It seems to me that some people really are enemies of rail passengers and are determined to make rail even less attractive/competitive compared to private road transport!

I would personally like named tickets as an option though not compulsory. I near enough only buy tickets for myself and known individuals. It would mean that the same rules about showing afterwards as Railcards and seasons could be applied, meaning I would have protection from battery/phone issues. Air tickets and coach tickets are named and people are fine with that.

I was just explaining, though, why it's easier for SNCF.

 

[BayPaul]

It's annoying. If it was done well, this could be positive for passengers.

• A decent online account where you can upload the railcards of all those you buy travel for,
• The ability to buy railcards with starting date now, on the date of travel or anywhere in between
• Automatic renewal available, including the ability to pause between the expiry date and your next travel date.
• tickets purchased automatically appear on their device as well as yours,
• the ability to use your email address as your ticket if your phone breaks
• Free name changes on the ticket
• No need to carry your railcard - your named ticket is proof of railcard.
• Automatic delay repay and warnings of delays
• Railcard discounts automatically applied to tickets as appropriate, no need to consider time of travel etc.

Unfortunately the industry would probably botch it and make a passenger unfriendly version that doesn't achieve this.

 

[DaveB10780]

How would your proposal work for parents buying tickets for their 16 year old children, or indeed people buying tickets for their senior parents?

Can I add senior parents buying tickets for their grown up kids because I understand most of the ticketing system with it's different rules and they don't. I would have to have multiple rail cards in multiple train companies accounts. No thank you. Don't punish the innocent for the cheaters, make more effort to police the system.

p.s. it really winds me up every time somebody says "Senior Parents", this certainly does not apply to all. Maybe just say "technologically challenged" or something similar.

 

[thelongestroad]

It seems to me that some people really are enemies of rail passengers and are determined to make rail even less attractive/competitive compared to private road transport!

That wasn't my intention in the slightest. I understand my "suggestion" was almost certainly fraught in complications of which you've mentioned many. I understand only a minority engage in this behaviour but it does rather seem to have "blown up", purely based on my experience in my own role.

 

[yorkie]

I would personally like named tickets as an option though not compulsory. I near enough only buy tickets for myself and known individuals. It would mean that the same rules about showing afterwards as Railcards and seasons could be applied, meaning I would have protection from battery/phone issues. Air tickets and coach tickets are named and people are fine with that.

Air and long distance coach are considered to be a faff; they have low domestic market share in Great Britain.

Many people choose the convenience of the train, though the DfT, train companies and people such as yourself do seem to be determined to make things worse for the majority.

I was just explaining, though, why it's easier for SNCF.

SNCF should only ever be discussed as an example of not do things, at least when it comes to ticketing / journey planning.

Can I add senior parents buying tickets for their grown up kids because I understand most of the ticketing system with it's different rules and they don't. I would have to have multiple rail cards in multiple train companies accounts. No thank you. Don't punish the innocent for the cheaters, make more effort to police the system.

p.s. it really winds me up every time somebody says "Senior Parents", this certainly does not apply to all. Maybe just say "technologically challenged" or something similar.

My point was about Railcard eligibility, nothing else. If anyone would like the Senior Railcard to have a different name, you are welcome to put that forward to Rail Delivery Group and/or create a thread in Speculative Discussion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==

It's annoying. If it was done well, this could be positive for passengers.

• A decent online account where you can upload the railcards of all those you buy travel for,
• The ability to buy railcards with starting date now, on the date of travel or anywhere in between
• Automatic renewal available, including the ability to pause between the expiry date and your next travel date.
• tickets purchased automatically appear on their device as well as yours,

In theory, a retailer could do all that. But I am not sure huge numbers of people would want/use this functionality, especially if the intention is to link it with restrictions.

• the ability to use your email address as your ticket if your phone breaks
• Free name changes on the ticket
• No need to carry your railcard - your named ticket is proof of railcard.

But then you need to carry ID. I don't want to have to carry ID and I am not sure there are huge numbers of people who would see that as a benefit.

With all due respect, if bletchleyite sees something as a benefit, then I wouldn't take that as applying to the majority.

• Automatic delay repay and warnings of delays

Automatic delay repay is already a 'thing' however it tends to fall down with connections. Warnings of delays is already a thing.

• Railcard discounts automatically applied to tickets as appropriate, no need to consider time of travel etc.

Websites automatically apply the appropriate time restrictions anyway.

Unfortunately the industry would probably botch it and make a passenger unfriendly version that doesn't achieve this.

If was under RDG control, it would likely be very poor, based on past experience of RDG projects, yes.

 

[rmHawk765]

There's a reason why Railcards still work the way they work. It has its issues but you're going to cause more trying to set up any sort of booking-time verification system for them. If the network was properly nationalised it would make it easier but that's unlikely to ever happen, at least that's the impression given by the current government.