Should passengers vote for TOCs?

[Hellfire]

Link: Call for passengers to be given vote on who runs their trains

Call for passengers to be given vote on who runs their trains

Passengers should be given a vote on whether train operators should continue running services, the head of the consumer watchdog has said.

His most eye-catching initiative would see passengers being given a vote on whether a company should retain its franchise when it comes up for renewal.

This would raise the possibility of poor performing operators being sacked by their long-suffering passengers, some of whom pay more than £5,000 for an annual season ticket.

Mr Smiths's call comes at a time when the Government is considering overhauling the franchising system.

Currently potential franchisees are primarily judged on how much money they will pay to the Treasury for running profitable lines or how much subsidy they will receive for loss-making routes as well as the service improvements they promise.

Although Passenger Focus is invited to submit its views during the franchising process, it is unclear how much weight they carry.

During the ill-fated West Coast Main Line franchise fiasco, the contract was awarded to First Group, which scored far worse in consumer surveys than Virgin, the company it would have ousted had the decision not been scrapped.

“The first priority for passengers is to keep the trains running and to deliver promised improvements in the short and medium term,” Mr Smith said.

“However, there does need to be some fresh thinking over the longer term about how to give weight to the passenger voice when making decisions on who will run their train services.

“A vote on franchise extensions is one radical option for doing this.”

Is this a good idea and is it practical?

 

[Fred26]

Christ no! Passengers, especially commuters, are never happy. They can't be trusted to be objective; they'll want to change TOCs every five minutes. As it is the public think a change of TOC = a change of staff.

 

[Simon11]

So tocs would resort to bribing customers giving lots of freebies and heavily spending on marketing to promote that they are a good company.

That just seems like money down the drain!

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont see why if the bids are within 10% or so as part of the bid evaluation the bidders couldnt be required to make a presentation and try to sell themselves to a select group of passengers. This way at least it would be considering their package of improvements not just the purely financial largest return to the Government. Its ridiculous that a package that could have vastly superior benefits to the passenger would lose out because their paying the Government £1m less in kickbacks.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From today's Daily Telegraph:

Passengers should be given a vote on whether the operators of their trains should continue running services, the head of the consumer watchdog has said.The suggestion by Anthony Smith, of Passenger Focus, would raise the possibility of poor performing operators being sacked by their long-suffering passengers when a franchise comes up for renewal. Some passengers pay more than £5,000 for an annual ticket."

Why am I not surprised to see an emotive subject as this used by a newspaper as something new to motivate its readership. Do they also wish for the High-Street banks to allow their personal account customers to have the same proposed sanction, because they have financial input into them with their current accounts ? Passenger Focus obviously have no idea whatsoever with regard to shareholder involvement in companies.

We spend a great deal of money shopping at Sainsbury's every year to purchase the essentials of life, such as food, but we have never expected this to give us any rights of the type demanded in this Passenger Focus statement.

 

[NSEFAN]

Link to the article is here.

I would say that the majority of "normal" passengers I have met are woefully ignorant about lots of things on the railway, let alone about the finer details of franchising. Commuters are better informed as they use the trains more often, but without making public the business cases from each competing operator (which is not likely to happen as they are "commercially sensitive"), then the passengers are not in a position to make an informed choice.

 

[SWTCommuter]

Perhaps we should be able elect the head of Passenger Focus, then it might end being run by someone effective.

 

[Flamingo]

I can just see the letter of complaint now - "I was charged up by the nasty guard / RPI, if you don't refund me I won't vote for you and either will my family".

And we all know how effective voting for the Police Comissioner was...

 

[asylumxl]

You'll probably find lots of people voting for British Rail unaware it no longer exists :P.

 

[Aictos]

So tocs would resort to bribing customers giving lots of freebies and heavily spending on marketing to promote that they are a good company.

That just seems like money down the drain!

Surely not, that sounds just like a certain TOC out of a major London Terminal

 

[A-driver]

How would it work for a start? Who is eligible to vote? Must you have a certain number of used tickets to prove you use a line? Or live in a certain postcode? I live in London but often travel by train in the north west. Do I get a vote on their trains to as I do use them a few times a year?

Can't see it ever happening.

Plus, and I know it dosnt work like this in reality as nothing is that simple, but technically we do get a vote. The DfT decides who runs the franchise on our behalf overseen by a member of parliament which the people elect. I know its not quite as simple as that but theoretically we can put pressure on MPs to address franchise holders. Obviously (and proved by the fact first group still have franchises!) nothing will ever happen no matter how many people complain!

 

[hluraven]

So, the company with the largest marketing department wins franchises regardless of what they have actually done. Albeit, not so far from what has happened on West Coast.

 

[rdwarr]

Terrible idea. Many passengers would just be swayed by often unjustified negative publicity and we'd get a new TOC every time.

Last week we had some delays at Stevenage because an East Coast train had brought down wires which were the responsibility of Network Rail. This woman was on the phone to all and sundry going on about how it was all FCC's fault again and what a terrible operator they were. In fact they were doing a great job and we all got on a train which was on time with plenty of seats.

Didn't shut her up though.

 

[Muzer]

Nice idea in theory to give the passengers choice. In practice IMHO the passengers would always vote for the TOC that isn't their current one (because they think they're running the trains badly) so it would be in a perpetual state of flux.

 

[Vicpaul]

People only remember the bad so this would be a terrible idea

 

[Hellfire]

Nice idea in theory to give the passengers choice. In practice IMHO the passengers would always vote for the TOC that isn't their current one (because they think they're running the trains badly) so it would be in a perpetual state of flux.

As a regular VT customer I recall a lot of discussion among fellow passengers during the franchise row last year to the effect that the people that actually paid for the service were the ones that had no say. You may say much of this was due to Virgin's very effective publicity machine at the time but there was definitely a pro-VT feeling among passengers and a frustration that the franchise negotiations did not take them into account at all.

I think if VT passengers had been allowed a vote they would have plumped for the status quo. (I have no evidence for this of course)

The responses so far to my post were as I would have predicted and I think some really good points have been made about the practicalities of how this would work. I didn't post this because I necessarily agree with Passenger Focus.

I'd just put this point to those that have been saying, understandably, that most passengers have no idea how a railway works so cannot make an informed decision.

I would suggest that if you applied this logic to politics then half the population should be barred from voting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should also say that the Passenger Focus spokesman said the suggestion would only apply when franchises came up for renewal. I don't thik they envisage votes every Friday night.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We spend a great deal of money shopping at Salisbury's every year to purchase the essentials of life,

You must buy a lot of handbags

 

[cuccir]

Perhaps we should be able elect the head of Passenger Focus, then it might end being run by someone effective.

Yes, this is a much better suggestion. The issue is getting decent passenger representation in TOC choice and service operation. Voting for TOCs is clearly impractical, as ADriver points out. How on earth do you create a reasonable and balanced constituency?

 

[corin paul]

Never, we brits don't go to the polls at the General election.

 

[DarloRich]

Why am I not surprised to see an emotive subject as this used by a newspaper as something new to motivate its readership. Do they also wish for the High-Street banks to allow their personal account customers to have the same proposed sanction, because they have financial input into them with their current accounts ? Passenger Focus obviously have no idea whatsoever with regard to shareholder involvement in companies.

We spend a great deal of money shopping at Salisbury's every year to purchase the essentials of life, such as food, but we have never expected this to give us any rights of the type demanded in this Passenger Focus statement.

This is the most sensible post on this thread and represents my position entirely. Perhaps we ought to brush up on the words of The Internationale..........

 

[alienined]

Any vote should given weight when renewing TOC contracts. Commuters pay the TOC wages, so their views should be taken into consideration. p.s I am not a commuter!

 

[YorkshireBear]

How are TOCs supposed to invest if this is the case? We saw with GA that people expected an overnight changeover in operations from NXEA.... So every week someone would be sacked.

 

[Oswyntail]

Any vote should given weight when renewing TOC contracts. Commuters pay the TOC wages, so their views should be taken into consideration. p.s I am not a commuter!

I would presume that a part of the assessment process would involve examining customer feedback (though this is only relevant to incumbent TOCs). I would personally debar commuters from commenting - a lot of their negative comments can actually be translated into "I made a poor lifestyle choice in moving to Little Gidding, and I have to blame somebody"
Not often we get a thread on which virtually everyone agrees.

 

[Tibbs]

Why am I not surprised to see an emotive subject as this used by a newspaper as something new to motivate its readership. Do they also wish for the High-Street banks to allow their personal account customers to have the same proposed sanction, because they have financial input into them with their current accounts ? Passenger Focus obviously have no idea whatsoever with regard to shareholder involvement in companies.

We spend a great deal of money shopping at Salisbury's every year to purchase the essentials of life, such as food, but we have never expected this to give us any rights of the type demanded in this Passenger Focus statement.

If want to change my high street bank, I go into another bank give them my current account details and they get it done.

If I don't want to shop at Sainsburys any more, I drive to a different store. Actually in my case I click on a different website, which is even easier.

So people do vote when it comes to your examples, they vote with their wallets.

If you want to use a different train company to make your journey? You most often can't. My commute is watford to Euston and unless I want to sit on an overground train for the best part of an hour, I have to get London Midland, be cause they have the monopoly of fast trains into Euston that stop at Watford.

I think people here are underestimating commuters. I'd vote for LM to stay, they're not perfect, but they do a good job. The people who use LM in Brum may not though...

 

[sheff1]

Perhaps we should be able elect the head of Passenger Focus, then it might end being run by someone effective.

Agreed. An accountable and effective PF could provide useful input as to whether a TOC incumbent or a new bidder is the best option.

 

[Flamingo]

I would presume that a part of the assessment process would involve examining customer feedback (though this is only relevant to incumbent TOCs). I would personally debar commuters from commenting - a lot of their negative comments can actually be translated into "I made a poor lifestyle choice in moving to Little Gidding, and I have to blame somebody"
Not often we get a thread on which virtually everyone agrees.

Very well put!

 

[telstarbox]

It would be more reasonable and practical to require each TOC to have passenger representatives on the board (or maybe the board of the parent company ie FirstGroup, Stagecoach). This could be made a condition of new franchises as they come up for renewal, although how you would select such representatives is not obvious - perhaps

 

[Southwest]

My answer would be no but there should be a passeneger elected to represent the rest on any panel who do decide which are the worst and best TOC's.

 

[jon0844]

..people do vote when it comes to your examples, they vote with their wallets.

If you want to use a different train company to make your journey? You most often can't. My commute is watford to Euston and unless I want to sit on an overground train for the best part of an hour, I have to get London Midland, be cause they have the monopoly of fast trains into Euston that stop at Watford.

I think people here are underestimating commuters. I'd vote for LM to stay, they're not perfect, but they do a good job. The people who use LM in Brum may not though...

You could perhaps survey passengers (carried out by the DfT) and take that into account when considering bids, hopefully read and analysed by people who properly understand the railway and can immediately disregard comments about the timetable or problems outside of the control of the railway (or TOC). It would mostly be down to customer service, so wouldn't really cover timetables, rolling stock etc (things that a TOC rarely has much say in) or the dissatisfaction with the overhead lines always falling down or signalling problems etc. I suspect the data wouldn't really count for that much.

Most of the public are too ignorant to really be able to decide anyway; all commuter TOCs would get booted out and those used for leisure travel or with a good onboard service would stay in forever.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

I should also say that the Passenger Focus spokesman said the suggestion would only apply when franchises came up for renewal. I don't thik they envisage votes every Friday night.

No! It would make great Friday night viewing on channel 5

 

[455driver]

So an incumbent TOC (no names) who has a magnificent PR department which leads its "customers" to believe that the recent line upgrade (paid for by Network Rail) and for which the TOC was paid huge amounts of "compensation" by Network Rail plus the brand new trains to run on it (a requirement of the franchise specification regardless of winner) is all their doing (and nothing to do with Network Rail or the government), but whenever there is a problem its always somebody elses fault "oh one of our trains has pulled the wires down, it must be NRs fault" would win every time but another TOC (again no names) which was let (by the government) on a zero growth forecast (and so no additional trains were allocated or permitted) and is suffering from chronic over-crowding as a result would lose every time.

Yeah it seems a really good idea, not!