Should passengers vote for TOCs?

[MattRobinson]

Nice idea in theory to give the passengers choice. In practice IMHO the passengers would always vote for the TOC that isn't their current one (because they think they're running the trains badly) so it would be in a perpetual state of flux.

The grass is always greener on the other side mentality.

 

[FGW_DID]

Brilliant idea, let the punters pick which new name/livery they want on the same stock as before, running along the same route as before, operating from the same stations as before, manned by the same staff as before then at the first sign of trouble/delays when they start moaning, just turn round and say:

"Well, you voted for them!"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you want to use a different train company to make your journey? You most often can't. My commute is watford to Euston and unless I want to sit on an overground train for the best part of an hour, I have to get London Midland, be cause they have the monopoly of fast trains into Euston that stop at Watford.

Much as I admire the most clear and concisely-written thoughtful reply that you have crafted, you have not answered the role position that Passenger Focus have intimated should be the case of the rail travelling public with all the legal responsibilities ensuing therefrom.
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You must buy a lot of handbags

Whatever has that to do with the purchase of the weekly food requirements, which is what I gave as an example of an "essential" of life in my posting.

Perhaps "handbags" are viewed as a more "essential" part of life in your area than in ours...

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps "handbags" are viewed as a more "essential" part of life in your area than in ours...

Perhaps this refers to your accidental typing of 'Sainsbury's' as 'Salisbury's' though...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps this refers to your accidental typing of 'Sainsbury's' as 'Salisbury's' though...

Your keenness of vision does you credit...

In the phrase made once famous by Captain Bertorelli in " 'Allo 'Allo "....
What a mistake-a to make-a.....
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You must buy a lot of handbags

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa....

Slinks off to the darkest corner of the forum in total disgrace

 

[swt_passenger]

Your keenness of vision does you credit...

Was wondering if it was one of those auto spell checkers? My iPhone came up with sauna bury... :roll:

 

[Pugwash]

Maybe commuters are not stupid ( given they work somewhere that pays them enough to pay the fares )

I suspect they might vote for the TOC that promises to pay the least to the DFT, not put up fares, actually bother to clean the trains properly and eliminate staff pay rises.

 

[Hellfire]

Your keenness of vision does you credit...

In the phrase made once famous by Captain Bertorelli in " 'Allo 'Allo "....
What a mistake-a to make-a.....
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Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa....

Slinks off to the darkest corner of the forum in total disgrace

Sorry, I couldn't resist it...no criticism intended. In any case you say you live in a really posh place so it could have been handbags

 

[WatcherZero]

So an incumbent TOC (no names) who has a magnificent PR department which leads its "customers" to believe that the recent line upgrade (paid for by Network Rail) and for which the TOC was paid huge amounts of "compensation" by Network Rail plus the brand new trains to run on it (a requirement of the franchise specification regardless of winner) is all their doing (and nothing to do with Network Rail or the government), but whenever there is a problem its always somebody elses fault "oh one of our trains has pulled the wires down, it must be NRs fault" would win every time but another TOC (again no names) which was let (by the government) on a zero growth forecast (and so no additional trains were allocated or permitted) and is suffering from chronic over-crowding as a result would lose every time.

Yeah it seems a really good idea, not!

Except the National Passenger Survey found that Northern was rated better value for money than every single First toc except First Hull, Northern also beat every First group except First Hull on seating availability. Its main failing to First was punctuality. Virgin also beat all the First tocs on value for money, punctuality, handling of delays and Crowding too. Funnily the best performing First Group statistic was First TPE's station management, mind you only Network Rail themselves manage fewer stations than TPE dont they?

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/me... Autumn 2012 - Main Report - web version.pdf

 

[CNash]

Maybe commuters are not stupid ( given they work somewhere that pays them enough to pay the fares )

Careful - that's a dangerous opinion to have around these parts!

Anyway, I don't think this is workable; the amount of knowledge that Joe Public would need to be able to make an informed decision would be difficult to effectively communicate - and a lot of it would be against the business interests of the prospective TOCs to divulge. Then you've got the logistical problem of determining who votes for what - do I get to vote for SE's franchise, as it's where I live, or SWT's franchise, as it's where I work? I commute on both daily, so perhaps half a vote each for me?

In any case - I don't think enough people would care enough to vote. You'd end up with a heavily biased "electorate" made up primarily of the members of forums like these, rail company employees and businessmen with a stake in the profits of the prospective TOCs.

 

[12CSVT]

You'll probably find lots of people voting for British Rail unaware it no longer exists :P.

How about a referendum on renationalisation.

 

[Dave1987]

Maybe commuters are not stupid ( given they work somewhere that pays them enough to pay the fares )

I suspect they might vote for the TOC that promises to pay the least to the DFT, not put up fares, actually bother to clean the trains properly and eliminate staff pay rises.

Would you like to see the state the trains come in like at night? They go out a darn sight cleaner than they go in I can assure you. And the comment about staff pay rises doesn't even merit a response!

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe commuters are not stupid ( given they work somewhere that pays them enough to pay the fares )

I suspect they might vote for the TOC that promises to pay the least to the DFT, not put up fares, actually bother to clean the trains properly and eliminate staff pay rises.

Assuming you are a commuter, Part two of your post gives the lie to part one...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

...... and eliminate staff pay rises.

I take it that this final part of your posting was added on by you specifically to elicit responses from those forum members who are employed by those TOC.

Not a good move on your part.

 

[Captain Chaos]

eliminate staff pay rises.

What for a whole franchise? Of perhaps 15 years? So 15 years of a stagnant wage? So, assuming an average rate of inflation of 3% you are suggesting that wages almost halve in real terms? You do realise how silly this is, right? By the end of the period you would have pushed a lot of staff well below the minimum wage.

In the voice of a certain tennis player: 'You cannot be serious!'
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On topic though: I think this would be a bad idea. Everyone would just vote Virgin Trains. Actually, hold on! Maybe not as bad as it sounds! If beardie runs all the franchises then wouldn't that technically be a bit like BR again? Hmmm...

 

[bluenoxid]

Agreed. An accountable and effective PF could provide useful input as to whether a TOC incumbent or a new bidder is the best option.

How about Transport Commissioners?

Start in the PTE areas...

 

[455driver]

Not a good move on your part.

And the reason quite a few staff are leaving this forum.

Still, he could moan like #$£% when all the trains are cancelled because the staff have buggered off to TOCs who offer better pay and conditions. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

Except the National Passenger Survey found that Northern was rated better value for money than every single First toc except First Hull, Northern also beat every First group except First Hull on seating availability. Its main failing to First was punctuality. Virgin also beat all the First tocs on value for money, punctuality, handling of delays and Crowding too. Funnily the best performing First Group statistic was First TPE's station management, mind you only Network Rail themselves manage fewer stations than TPE dont they?
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It's funny, but it doesn't surprise me. As a commuter and leisure traveller on Northern, it's not that often my train's cancelled. Also, I live in a PTE area where it's not stupidly expensive.

Northern might have old rolling stock, but to me it suits the ideal of a train being on time and not overpriced, which seems to have cropped up as the ideal for commuters over the last thirty years.

 

[moggie]

A complete bonkers idea - many passengers can't even get on the right train with the right ticket so how would these people understand the complexities of train operations? Reps on the TOC board? - well if elected councilors are anything to go by they'd soon become puppets of those they were supposed to bring to account if measured by planning committees - with no clout they may as well not be there.

Maybe our esteemed local MP's may be a better option along? At least a dire train service would mean they would become unelected in five years and in the meantime their postbag would be full to bursting. They could even campaign on a ticket to improve rail services knowing that it would actually count for something of they failed on their promises?

 

[MattRobinson]

I suspect that the eliminating pay rises thing was probably suggesting that many commuters see pay rises as being directly responsible for their fare rises: hence if the pay was kept the same, the ticket prices will also be the same. I doubt that it was the opinion of the poster.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Holly]

You'll probably find lots of people voting for British Rail unaware it no longer exists .

Even more voting for British Rail in a desire to reinstate it.

Put simply, voting for TOCs won't happen because it would be the death knell of privatisation.

 

[Dave1987]

Even more voting for British Rail in a desire to reinstate it.

Put simply, voting for TOCs won't happen because it would be the death knell of privatisation.

Look privatisation has its downsides but also it's upsides. Don't think all proceeds of the railway would be put back in if it was nationalised. For example does all your road tax actually get spent on maintaining the roads?

 

[HH]

Maybe commuters are not stupid ( given they work somewhere that pays them enough to pay the fares )

I suspect they might vote for the TOC that promises to pay the least to the DFT, not put up fares, actually bother to clean the trains properly and eliminate staff pay rises.

It's not about their intelligence, it's about their ignorance. Anyway those same commuters vote for politicians too, and look where that got us...

 

[RichmondCommu]

Maybe commuters are not stupid ( given they work somewhere that pays them enough to pay the fares )

I suspect they might vote for the TOC that promises to pay the least to the DFT, not put up fares, actually bother to clean the trains properly and eliminate staff pay rises.

Not fleecing commuters for every penny that they have and clean trains would certainly get my vote. Some posters on here are happy to slag off commuters whilst forgetting that we pay through the nose for our season tickets and are treated like cattle. Perhaps they would prefer that there were no commuters at all?

 

[Dave1987]

Not fleecing commuters for every penny that they have and clean trains would certainly get my vote. Some posters on here are happy to slag off commuters whilst forgetting that we pay through the nose for our season tickets and are treated like cattle. Perhaps they would prefer that there were no commuters at all?

I'm sorry but how is it the TOC's fault that particular services are extremely popular. No one is forcing you to travel on the popular services that are very busy because they take 10 mins less than the stopping trains. This is what really bugs me about commuters sometimes. The express service is rammed and you can't get a seat so complain like fury even though it is probably a long as it can be, yet the stopping service that takes 10 odd minutes longer has plenty of seats. It is your choice to get on that popular express service.

 

[yorksrob]

A lot of the problems could be alleviated if the 'dynamic' and 'innovative' private sector adopted more flexible working hours. I simply don't believe all those city centre office workers have to be at thsir desks at the same time. Oh wait- it's more difficult to screw hours and hours of unpaid overtime out of the workers if they are on flexi !

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm sorry but how is it the TOC's fault that particular services are extremely popular. No one is forcing you to travel on the popular services that are very busy because they take 10 mins less than the stopping trains. This is what really bugs me about commuters sometimes. The express service is rammed and you can't get a seat so complain like fury even though it is probably a long as it can be, yet the stopping service that takes 10 odd minutes longer has plenty of seats. It is your choice to get on that popular express service.

I'm sorry too Dave. I'm sorry that every train heading into Waterloo during the 'peak' is rammed, regardless of whether it’s a limited stop service. I'm sorry that commuters are seen by the DfT as cash cows because they know that by and large we have no alternative but to travel on their dirty and over crowded trains. Actually, thinking about it filth isn't really an issue as I rarely get to have a seat.
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A lot of the problems could be alleviated if the 'dynamic' and 'innovative' private sector adopted more flexible working hours. I simply don't believe all those city centre office workers have to be at thsir desks at the same time. Oh wait- it's more difficult to screw hours and hours of unpaid overtime out of the workers if they are on flexi !

You've made a very valid point here but in order to be able to eat dinner with my family I need to travel during the 'peak' to get a full days work done. Ideally I would like to work from home but that is unlikely to happen. Roll on early retirement!

 

[A-driver]

It's not just a problem of everyone wanting to travel into london for 9 and home again at 5- housing developers don't help either - rail services are already busy and taking a plot of farm land just outside the M25 next to a station and building 700 homes on it then marketing them as having excellent rail links to London is surely a problem that shod be addressed to! Pretty much overnight when the new homes 'open' you can have an extra 500-600 people using that station at peak hours-and there is no way the railway can keep up with that.

It takes no time at all to bud houses now a days where as manufacturing and testing additional rolling stock, extending platforms, upgrading signalling to allow additional paths, upgrading power supply's to allow longer trains to run etc is not only very time consuming but also expensive.

I can't see it being realistic to expect less crowded trains if travelling in the peaks I'm afraid. I agree that a more flexible approach to working hours is needed. If that means you can't have dinner with your family each evening then I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy-I very rarely get to have dinner at home with my wife and kids due to work.

 

[yorksrob]

I see Richmond Commuters point about eating with his family. However, there may well be people living in apartments and flats closer to the centre who may find it more convenient to work slightly different hours, or some without families may prefer to work later.

 

[RichmondCommu]

However, there may well be people living in apartments and flats closer to the centre who may find it more convenient to work slightly different hours, or some without families may prefer to work later.

I concur however staff would still be expected to be available during the core business hours but that wouldn't prevent them from starting work at say 07.00 in the morning and finishing between 15.00 and 15.30. I've always found finishing work at say 19.00 to be rather depressing but that of course is down to the individual!

I would agree that living in the centre of a city can be a very attractive proposition when you are young but it's not ideal for bringing up a young family.