Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
I am thinking of sending a statutory declaration. I have just received a fine of £415.40 for a £11.40 ticket! (Fine £220; Comp £11.40; Victim Sur £34; Costs £150). However, the person on the phone to Preston Magistrate said there probably won't be a change even then since I will be pleading guilty. TBH I have NO idea if I am to plead guilty or not.
Another disturbing feature of this case is that the clerk who advised the justices who dealt with this case failed to note that the penalty fare notice tendered in evidence by the prosecution demonstrated that you had supplied your name and address when asked to do so and thus satisfied one of the requirements of Section 5(1). As a result it appears that the court itself failed to satisfy itself that the offence alleged was properly proved, and has instead tamely accepted a prosecution submission that Section 5(1) creates the offence of failing to produce a ticket. Whilst one can understand (but not condone) Northern's reasons for offering up a truncated version of the subsection in order to make their case, it's inexcusable for the clerk advising the justices to fail to bring to their attention a patent defect in that case.
I am in no doubt that you should immediately file the statutory declaration in order to have the conviction set aside and that you should plead not guilty to any charge under Section 5(1) brought against you by the proper process.
Another disturbing feature of this case is that the clerk who advised the justices who dealt with this case failed to note that the penalty fare notice tendered in evidence by the prosecution demonstrated that you had supplied your name and address when asked to do so and thus satisfied one of the requirements of Section 5(1). As a result it appears that the court itself failed to satisfy itself that the offence alleged was properly proved, and has instead tamely accepted a prosecution submission that Section 5(1) creates the offence of failing to produce a ticket. Whilst one can understand (but not condone) Northern's reasons for offering up a truncated version of the subsection in order to make their case, it's inexcusable for the clerk advising the justices to fail to bring to their attention a patent defect in that case.
I am in no doubt that you should immediately file the statutory declaration in order to have the conviction set aside and that you should plead not guilty to any charge under Section 5(1) brought against you by the proper process.
I think you need to get past the idea that in our heavily stretched justice system anyone has time to scrutinise the detail of everything that is put before the courts.
That's not say that there shouldn't be investigations though. If the courts do set this aside, you might want to consider a complaint to Northern at the highest level asking them to investigate potential gross negligence or misconduct here directly leading to a miscarriage of justice and to suggest an external audit to search for any other similar cases not yet detected.
I think you need to get past the idea that in our heavily stretched justice system anyone has time to scrutinise the detail of everything that is put before the courts.
I think you need to get past the idea that in our heavily stretched justice system anyone has time to scrutinise the detail of everything that is put before the courts.
I'm well aware of the lamentable state into which the justice system has fallen. However, knowing that to be the case is no justification for 'getting past' the court's lack of time to perform its functions correctly if that amounts to turning a blind eye to convictions stemming from a prosecutor's abuse of process. The OP can justifiably ask for an explanation of why Northern Trains Ltd charged her with an offence of which it well knew she could not be guilty, and why it did so by means of a procedure it was not authorised to use. She might also seek an explanation from the court of why it apparently acquiesced in this flawed process when the case came on for trial – all the relevant information on which the court should have acted, in the shape of the charge specification and the copy penalty fare notice, was there for it to see.
It's not as though some onerous burden will fall upon the courts in restraining such prosecutorial excess. It requires a momentary glance at the specification of charge on a SJPN issued by a train operator. Is the defendant charged with anything other than a byelaw offence? If 'yes' then in almost every case the court can send the papers back with a note that the operator is not authorised to commence proceedings by this means, and that consequently the court will not entertain them. That might actually curb train operators' enthusiasm for bringing such proceedings improperly and so lead to a reduction in the workload the courts are ill fitted to bear.
I think you need to get past the idea that in our heavily stretched justice system anyone has time to scrutinise the detail of everything that is put before the courts.
Unfortunately TOCs can effectively print their own summonses on a whim. Any attempt by an aggrieved passenger to obtain recourse is very difficult, time-consuming and potentially expensive. It's about as far from a level playing field as you could imagine.
I'm slightly amused at the suggestion that Northern get solicitors involved in their prosecutions.
They use poorly trained, non-legally qualified "prosecutions managers" and the like, just like the rest of the grubby little cottage industry of railway prosecutions (and Capita on behalf of the BBC, under their TV Licensing contract).
In theory, they require permission to address the Court on every occasion (as they aren't solicitors or barristers), but this seems to be a mere formality in practice. This is concerning, as it allows Northern et al to circumvent a key safeguard - that solicitors etc. know they can be held accountable for their conduct and potentially disbarred.
Thank you all for your replies. I think some of these things are making more sense now. Some still don't but I have to do my reading on all the links that have been posted above and do some studying clearly. So far I understand the statutory declaration needs to go in STAT and that something (related to the laws) has gone wrong (from Nothern's side which the court hasn't bothered to really look at) by which I am not guilty, so you've all advised me to plead 'not guilty. Meanwhile, I am attempting to write a statutory declaration (attached) which I would appreciate feedback for. I understand I need someone to sign this. Can someone also please advise me on how to get an advocate? Can I walk into the magistrate's office and ask for someone to review and sign it? Do I get an appointment? Where and how do I get that? £5-£10 for getting that signed seems reasonable. Again, you guys can't imagine how much I appreciate this. Can't believe someone's actually helping me. I see some ray of hope.
Thank you all for your replies. I think some of these things are making more sense now. Some still don't but I have to do my reading on all the links that have been posted above and do some studying clearly. So far I understand the statutory declaration needs to go in STAT and that something (related to the laws) has gone wrong (from Nothern's side which the court hasn't bothered to really look at) by which I am not guilty, so you've all advised me to plead 'not guilty. Meanwhile, I am attempting to write a statutory declaration (attached) which I would appreciate feedback for. I understand I need someone to sign this. Can someone also please advise me on how to get an advocate? Can I walk into the magistrate's office and ask for someone to review and sign it? Do I get an appointment? Where and how do I get that? £5-£10 for getting that signed seems reasonable. Again, you guys can't imagine how much I appreciate this. Can't believe someone's actually helping me. I see some ray of hope.
I think there are some links above about doing the statutory declaration (SD) yourself and paying £5-£10 for a local solicitor to witness it. This then resets the clock and you can get into the rest of it after that (I suspect much of the rest of it on this thread just needs boiling down to what you need to say to the Railway company after the SD is done, at which point they will probably withdraw the prosecution). My reading of the thread is you need to do the SD as soon as possible.
However, if you are in any doubt about this I'd be tempted to suggest you get a local solicitor to do the SD and lodge it for you (not just witness it) - so you can be sure it is done correctly - ask them to quote you for doing this and ring 2 or 3 firms if you like (but not ask the solicitor to 'fight the case with the railway for you', at least not at this stage for reasons of cost - as that can be done with advice from this forum.
There is loads of important and useful advice for you on this thread but I think it might be a bit of a distraction to get bogged down in it now. Take it stage by stage and my reading of this is that you need to get the SD done.
If others think I am giving the wrong advice at this stage please shout me down!
Regarding your draft statutory declaration, tick the box in the heading adjacent to 'section 16E'. This is the section in the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 setting out the procedure for voiding proceedings begun by SJPN of which the defendant is unaware.
You refer to the SJPN having been posted on 20 September but also, in paragraph 2, give that as the date on which hearing of your case began. The date in paragraph 2 needs to be changed to the (first) date of the actual hearing of your case. I assume from your first post that that date was 18 October.
Whilst it's sensible for you retain the last sentence in paragraph 3 setting out the date of posting of the SJPN, some of the rest of what you say is not relevant and could be omitted. It should suffice for you simply to say that you were out of this country from 11 July until 14 October and were unable to collect your mail from your student accommodation, including the SJPN, until 19 October, after your case had been heard.
After you have made your statutory declaration (either at court or before a solicitor), you will need to lodge it with the Magistrates Court in Preston (where you were convicted), and at the same time you will need to lodge with that court a statement of your intended response to the charge. Assuming you are content to proceed on the basis that you are not guilty, I would suggest such statement take the following form:
“To the Clerk to the Justices, Preston Magistrates Court, Lawson Street, Preston, Lancashire PR1 2QT:
In accordance with Rule 24.9(4)(c) Criminal Procedure Rules 2020 I give you notice that I plead 'not guilty' to the charge of being in breach of Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 that has been brought against me by Northern Trains Limited.
Dated ----------
Signed----------”
The usual disclaimer applies that I am nothing more than a random poster on an internet forum, and that this is a case in which the legal arguments to be advanced in your defence are such that you are likely to benefit from professional representation. Details of criminal defence solicitors are obtainable from https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/en, but you may also find the following two links of use:
Any criminal defence solicitor you approach should be able to assist you in making an application for legal aid if you cannot afford the retainer. Even if you can afford it, you should apply for legal aid, as doing so is a prerequisite of being able to obtain an award of defence costs if you are acquitted.
Thank you all for your replies. I think some of these things are making more sense now. Some still don't but I have to do my reading on all the links that have been posted above and do some studying clearly. So far I understand the statutory declaration needs to go in STAT and that something (related to the laws) has gone wrong (from Nothern's side which the court hasn't bothered to really look at) by which I am not guilty, so you've all advised me to plead 'not guilty. Meanwhile, I am attempting to write a statutory declaration (attached) which I would appreciate feedback for. I understand I need someone to sign this. Can someone also please advise me on how to get an advocate? Can I walk into the magistrate's office and ask for someone to review and sign it? Do I get an appointment? Where and how do I get that? £5-£10 for getting that signed seems reasonable. Again, you guys can't imagine how much I appreciate this. Can't believe someone's actually helping me. I see some ray of hope.
You can cut the statement massively down to "I was out of the country from 14 August to 14 October and unable to collect my mail until 19 October" and give the reason for travel (visiting family/returning home before your next university term/etc.) The court does not need to know about your resits, illness, choking on food etc.
The date needs to be the date printed on the SJPN as the date the court would deal with the case, not the date the SJPN was posted.
If you make the declaration at court, the magistrate has the option of starting to deal with the case as if you'd turned up to trial - at least if the procedure described in this post applies:
[@Puffing Devil wrote:] "In almost all cases it is better to have a Solicitor hear your Statutory Declaration: Courts will generally set a time to come in and make the declaration when the relevant prosecutor is in court then look to immediately re-open and hear the case there and then."
To be clear, the SD is only necessary if you have been convicted in court without you having been notified of the proceedings. You need to check that out. You do not need legal assistance to perform an SD. If you perform it in court the court's Legal Advisor will see you through the process...
www.railforums.co.uk
If it does apply, the magistrate could then make the same errors as the previous magistrate when you aren't prepared, and you would be better off making the declaration before a solicitor
- which ensures you have time to explain in writing why the prosecution was misconceived on two counts.
[Perhaps the post cited above is referring to procedure under Criminal Procedure Rules 44.2 (5)]
Any criminal defence solicitor you approach should be able to assist you in making an application for legal aid if you cannot afford the retainer. Even if you can afford it, you should apply for legal aid, as doing so is a prerequisite of being able to obtain an award of defence costs if you are acquitted.
Hi all, an update. I have been ringing solicitors from the above link. No luck so far. My 4th call said to go to the magistrates court and they will do it for me for free. I will have to call them and ask what the procedure is.
Yes, the magistrates court can do it for free, usually for a couple of hours each day. But beware – you are then likely to be asked to please guilty or not guilty to the offence there and then.
Hi all, an update. I have been ringing solicitors from the above link. No luck so far. My 4th call said to go to the magistrates court and they will do it for me for free. I will have to call them and ask what the procedure is.
Seems v bad luck - surely most solicitors firms have time for the witnessing of a document as per @some bloke in post #42 suggests. Try ringing a few more I would say.
I have also spoken to the Magistrates court before, I only now realise who I was speaking to, the number is on the fine notice. However, my call to her was about the SJP Notice having arrived whilst I was away. We also discussed very briefly about the train ticket and she asked if I know how things work etc. She then gave me the number for Single Justice and asked me to explain my situation to them. She said that they will then decide if I can give an SD and accept that or not. I think as per what @island has said I will be asked to plead guilty or not guilty then?
She also offered me the option to pay the fine on a monthly basis if things don't work out with Single Justice and SD is rejected. (I haven't sent the form or had it signed yet obv, this is all to happen on call.)
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Do you think I should go ahead and do that now? Am I ready?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Their offices are open until 5pm today. Next I can call them is Monday.
If the options provided by searching via the Law Society's website are too overwhelming then you may do better to try approaching the law firms whose details appear in the two additional links I provided. I can't tell whether the reviews given for those firms via those links are accurate, so you would need to make your own assessment when approaching any of them. Suggest that a good first step would be to ask whether they will offer an initial assessment of your case without charge. or for a fee that's acceptable to you.
A lawyer's 'retainer' is the amount you have to pay him for the services he provides. 'Legal Aid' is the colloquial name for the arrangements by which the state pays some or all of your legal expenses arising from court proceedings; for the purpose of being represented in criminal proceedings it's now more accurately referred to as a 'representation order'. To obtain such an order you have to pass two tests. One is whether you are financially eligible for state assistance towards your legal expenses. The other test is whether it is in the public interest for you to receive such assistance. Generally it is regarded as not being in the public interest for you to receive such an assistance if the offence with which you are charged is non-imprisonable. Yours is such a case (you cannot be imprisoned for a Section 5(1) RoRA conviction), but you might still be granted state-funded representation if you can convince the court (which decides whether to grant such aid) that yours is an exceptional case involving arguments on legal points that you are not equipped to present yourself.
I fear that the court might well say that the legal issues are not so complex as to justify an award of state assistance with your legal expenses, and that the court itself is perfectly capable of discovering and assessing the merits of those arguments itself. Unfortunately, events to date suggest that the court has already shown itself to be quite incapable of doing so. That shouldn't, however, deter you from trying to obtain a representation order for your legal expenses.
Edited to add that you may wish to redact your personal details appearing in post #13.
Indeed - and the OP is an international medical student - I'm no expert but I doubt a citizen of another country (which I assume the OP thus is) would have recourse to UK state funds to help with a court case of this nature - or possibly any court case.
Another reason why help and support from students union and / or university welfare office / university international student office as suggested up thread might have been / be of value. I don't think the OP has indicated if they have asked either of those organisations for such help.
Nevertheless the OP should apply for it as she will otherwise not be able to obtain an award of costs in respect of any legal expenses she incurs in securing an acquittal.
Nevertheless the OP should apply for it as she will otherwise not be able to obtain an award of costs in respect of any legal expenses she incurs in securing an acquittal.
That may be so, but currently she has a conviction recorded against her which needs to be set aside, following which there can be no telling whether a return to court will prove necessary. If the OP is put to legal expense in so doing, it is sensible to preserve her ability to apply for a costs order, regardless of whether it is likely to be awarded or not. I see no justice in her being left out of pocket as a consequence of the train operator's abuse of the legal process.
It is a legal requirement to enter a plea (or notice of intention of plea) with the declaration if the case began with an SJPN and the case was tried under the single justice procedure - regardless of whether the declaration is made at the court.
An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to the jurisdiction of, and the practice and procedure before, magistrates’ courts and the functions of justices’ clerks, and to matters connected therewith, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission.
www.legislation.gov.uk
The problem @Puffing Devil referred to is a risk of the court attempting to deal with the criminal case - or here, purported case - immediately.
Indeed - and the OP is an international medical student - I'm no expert but I doubt a citizen of another country (which I assume the OP thus is) would have recourse to UK state funds to help with a court case of this nature - or possibly any court case.
Another reason why help and support from students union and / or university welfare office / university international student office as suggested up thread might have been / be of value. I don't think the OP has indicated if they have asked either of those organisations for such help.
@tkl123 , have you emailed the medical school telling them about the conviction? I mention email because then you'll have a record of having informed them in writing.
Did you check their rules/any agreement you made at the start of your course on this?
So the current plan is, that I will try and go in person to the citizens' advice bureau on Monday to have them assess my current situation and seek free legal help from them. I will also call the Magistrates court to book an urgent appointment to sign my SD. But I wonder if I should call the Single Justice and see what happens there. I just don't feel too confident in presenting my case with legal aspects. I can explain my situation just fine but arguing anything beyond that is what I am worried about. Over the weekend I will try to pen down the discussions on this thread and post them here for feedback to see if anything should be added or retracted from it.
@tkl123 , have you emailed the medical school telling them about the conviction? I mention email because then you'll have a record of having informed them in writing.
Did you check their rules/any agreement you made at the start of your course on this?
I have emailed the uni yes.
From what I know illegal and criminal charges might be an issue but things like parking tickets etc have been deemed ok. Elsewhere on this thread and on a phone call with someone from the magistrate court, a lady confirmed I should be fine.
I have emailed the uni yes.
From what I know illegal and criminal charges might be an issue but things like parking tickets etc have been deemed ok. Elsewhere on this thread and on a phone call with someone from the magistrate court, a lady confirmed I should be fine.
Thank you. It's a criminal conviction, but people's worries about effects on their careers, expressed on this forum, tend to be way overblown. And of course you are innocent. I just meant the rules you have to observe as a formality.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
If @tkl123 stood up in court and said, "Are we sure Northern is officially a Relevant Prosecutor for this offence via SJP?", how could the case continue?
Perhaps it will be easier to sort this case out if the arguments and/or questions are put well in time for the clerk and Northern to think them over before a summons is issued.
If @tkl123 stood up in court and said, "Are we sure Northern is officially a Relevant Prosecutor for this offence via SJP?", how could the case continue?
If the case is before magistrates, there will probably be furious consultation with the legal advisor, followed, in all likelihood, by an adjournment and listing before a District Judge.
The unlikely, but desirable, outcome would be for the case to be dismissed there and then as it was inappropriately commenced via SJPN.
If the case is before magistrates, there will probably be furious consultation with the legal advisor, followed, in all likelihood, by an adjournment and listing before a District Judge.
If Northern's representative is there, won't the mags ask them whether they are sure, or to show the legal provision they claim gives them the authority?
Would the magistrates think that checking something on a list is a task for a district judge?
If magistrates have a formal obligation to check before issuing a summons, would they pass the case to a district judge without checking?
And when Northern check, including if there's an adjournment, why would they choose to waste public money on a hearing rather than dropping the case?
If in court @tkl123 gave the URL, I'm not sure how Northern could get an adjournment to check.
Perhaps you mean that a magistrate would issue a summons based on the original charge, when they realise the purported "SJPN" accompanying the charge was invalid (when I looked before, I couldn't exclude this as a possibility in the 1980 Magistrates' Courts Act)?
If they could do that, and still thought the non-existent "offence" was a real offence in law, would the summons not be to appear before magistrates rather than a DJ?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Even if the court is allowed to issue a summons using the old charge (so that the the "SJPN" being shown to be invalid doesn't end the whole thing):
If @tkl123 raises the "Relevant Prosecutor" issue first, which is more straightforward, Northern and the court may pay more attention to the "no case to answer because gave name and address" argument, having already accepted that they have made one mistake.
@tkl123, as far as I'm aware the current list of offences which train operating companies can lawfully prosecute via SJPN is in the last part of 6.(2) in this document (starting from the words, " “railway offence” means—"), and it clearly doesn't include s.5(1) of the 1889 Act.
An easy way to understand and present the argument that there is no case to answer under s.5(1) may be through what various people have written about it. There are images in the post linked to below, with the relevant parts highlighted (scroll down to see the images).
At an appropriate time you could send some of these to the court and Northern for a show'n'tell - or hand copies to them in court if it really came to that!
They probably want to avoid setting a precedent which can be used for future prosecutions also if it was proven that the case should never have brought in the first place then the prosecuting staff would be having an "interview without coffee" to explain why they insisting on pursuing it when it...
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
