Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Hi,
I am an international medical student. I was travelling from Preston to Burnley on 19th May. I got tickets but bought them using the railcard, which I was told was not applicable before 10 am. The conductor nicely explained this to me and gave me a penalty fare. She also asked me to appeal this with Nothern. I did so but they rejected my appeal. I then moved to pay the penalty but it showed a payment error on multiple attempts. I then emailed northern and showed them a screenshot of this, but I received no response.
I had exams after which I was finally flying home after not being able to afford to do so for a long while. I did continue emailing them throughout but received no response. I then came back for 3-4 days in August to resit for an exam (a very expensive affair, which has left me with no way of visiting family in the next year or so). I got my mail from reception (student accommodation) after the last exam and found more mails from northern with a reminder and 2 with added penalty fares reaching up to £90-ish. Since it was evening and I was due to leave for Manchester at 3 am for an early flight, there was no way to contact Northern.
I continued emailing them with no response as usual. Finally, via Facebook messenger, I received a response from a team who then directed my issue to another team. In the end, they asked me to pay £52.80. However, my payment was still showing errors. I have now come back to a Single Justice Procedure Notice with an attached settlement offer (of £100+outstanding fare if not wanting to take this to court). I called the Nothern number provided and they said the court date for the SJPN was yesterday. I obviously had no clue about this so I could not plead my case whatsoever. They gave me another number for "court". The nice lady there said to wait for the fine to be delivered from the court and then call her back. Then we tell the court I was not during this time, and try to appeal to Nothern under mitigating circumstances (or something like this, I can't recall exact wordings). This lady also said this is just a fine and does not fall under criminal charges. Something about DBS was said but I think it was to the effect of NOT affecting my DBS.
I don't know how much the court decides to fine, but I am a student and cannot pay a three-digit amount let alone get a lawyer for this. I don't even know if I am supposed to plead guilty or not. I've been super stressed and unable to sleep. I then went on a Reddit forum where someone said to submit a statutory declaration form to un-fine me and come back to the point of SJPN notifying me with a 21-day time period to plead guilty or not guilty. I was then thinking I could take Nothern up for their settlement offer if this goes the way the Reddit user said. But I don't know if I should go ahead with this or what the lady said. Or if they would even consider the settlement offer again? Should I speak to them about this or not? The Reddit user also said to contact Nothern Debt Recovery and Prosecutions unit but I can't find a number for this.
Hi,
I am an international medical student. I was travelling from Preston to Burnley on 19th May. I got tickets but bought them using the railcard, which I was told was not applicable before 10 am. The conductor nicely explained this to me and gave me a penalty fare. She also asked me to appeal this with Nothern. I did so but they rejected my appeal. I then moved to pay the penalty but it showed a payment error on multiple attempts. I then emailed northern and showed them a screenshot of this, but I received no response.
I had exams after which I was finally flying home after not being able to afford to do so for a long while. I did continue emailing them throughout but received no response. I then came back for 3-4 days in August to resit for an exam (a very expensive affair, which has left me with no way of visiting family in the next year or so). I got my mail from reception (student accommodation) after the last exam and found more mails from northern with a reminder and 2 with added penalty fares reaching up to £90-ish. Since it was evening and I was due to leave for Manchester at 3 am for an early flight, there was no way to contact Northern.
I continued emailing them with no response as usual. Finally, via Facebook messenger, I received a response from a team who then directed my issue to another team. In the end, they asked me to pay £52.80. However, my payment was still showing errors. I have now come back to a Single Justice Procedure Notice with an attached settlement offer (of £100+outstanding fare if not wanting to take this to court). I called the Nothern number provided and they said the court date for the SJPN was yesterday. I obviously had no clue about this so I could not plead my case whatsoever. They gave me another number for "court". The nice lady there said to wait for the fine to be delivered from the court and then call her back. Then we tell the court I was not during this time, and try to appeal to Nothern under mitigating circumstances (or something like this, I can't recall exact wordings). This lady also said this is just a fine and does not fall under criminal charges. Something about DBS was said but I think it was to the effect of NOT affecting my DBS.
I don't know how much the court decides to fine, but I am a student and cannot pay a three-digit amount let alone get a lawyer for this. I don't even know if I am supposed to plead guilty or not. I've been super stressed and unable to sleep. I then went on a Reddit forum where someone said to submit a statutory declaration form to un-fine me and come back to the point of SJPN notifying me with a 21-day time period to plead guilty or not guilty. I was then thinking I could take Nothern up for their settlement offer if this goes the way the Reddit user said. But I don't know if I should go ahead with this or what the lady said. Or if they would even consider the settlement offer again? Should I speak to them about this or not? The Reddit user also said to contact Nothern Debt Recovery and Prosecutions unit but I can't find a number for this.
If the hearing was yesterday, you will have been convicted in your absence. Therefore there is no point going straight to Northern and trying to appeal this with them - they cannot overturn the conviction. Only the court can do that, after you submit your statutory declaration.
Whilst Northern may be open to a settlement once the case is reopened, there is no guarantee. They may well want more because of the costs they've incurred in taking you to court the first time.
That being said, let's just come back to the Penalty Fare. Did Northern ever send you a letter/email saying this was being cancelled? Take a look back through your post/emails if need be. This could be an important detail in all this.
In terms of DBS, from what you have said it seems like you've been convicted of an offence under Railway Byelaw 18. This is a criminal conviction and so if you were to be convicted again after submitting your statutory declaration, there are circumstances where you would have to declare it. However because of the type of offence, it doesn't automatically show up in your criminal record. But ultimately - if you lie about not having convictions, you could get into much more trouble than by admitting the conviction and explaining it away.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, using a Railcard-discounted ticket before 10am isn't something for which you should have been issued with a Penalty Fare for. Nor is it something for which you can even be prosecuted, unless there is evidence that you have done this deliberately in order to avoid the correct fare (e.g. through repeated purchase history). Is this the full story? I would be surprised if the conductor (sounds more like a Revenue Protection Inspector to me, but that's immaterial) had got the rules that wrong.
Did you have sufficient money available to pay the difference in fare on the spot? Were you asked to do so?
In normal circumstances you should have been asked to pay just that and that would have been the end of the matter.
9.5Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak”
Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are
travelling; or
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.
This should have been mentioned in your appeal, but even if it wasn't, the people handling the appeal should have recognised the situation and acted accordingly.
This rule exists because it was considered unfair to penalise people who had failed to navigate their way through the complexity of railway time restrictions correctly.
Did you appeal using the formal process? Perhaps you could share the response you received (with personal details removed)?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also, can you confirm that you were able to show the railcard to the inspector at the time and it was valid on that date?
One thing worth mentioning - if you got a penalty fare (for whatever reason) and subsequently appealed it, even if that appeal was rejected, I believe that you may have a defence to any prosecution in that the prosecution is statute-barred. I'm sure @Watershed will come back to confirm this (or otherwise), but if so, it's important to get the statutory declaration in as soon as possible.
being said, let's just come back to the Penalty Fare. Did Northern ever send you a letter/email saying this was being cancelled? Take a look back through your post/emails if need be. This could be an important detail in all this.
I think it would also be worth establishing if the OP actually got a Penalty Fare (which I don't believe Northern guards can issue) in the first instance.
I hope the OP has saved some evidence of the numerous "payment errors" they say they encountered when trying to settle the matter. It would be most unlucky indeed for the payment systems to be out of order so many times at the exact times that the OP was attempting to pay.
I hope the OP has saved some evidence of the numerous "payment errors" they say they encountered when trying to settle the matter. It would be most unlucky indeed for the payment systems to be out of order so many times at the exact times that the OP was attempting to pay.
Well, we have to take the OP's account at face value - they are harming no-one but themselves if their account is inaccurate. It's possible that the payment errors occurred due to trying to use a foreign-registered card to pay.
(NRCOT)
9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak”
Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are
travelling; or
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.
I am not sure this applies here - the OP didn't simply buy the wrong ticket, they applied a Railcard discount that wasn't applicable (at that time).
Having checked on the Northern app, it is impossible to buy a discounted ticket as the OP did without choosing a departure after 10.00. I would be surprised if other apps/sites differed - the Northern TVMs do the same.
The staff member may well therefore have considered that the OP's action was intentional and issued a PF. (ISTR another recent thread where the OP had done much the same.)
Having checked on the Northern app, it is impossible to buy a discounted ticket as the OP did without choosing a departure after 10.00. I would be surprised if other apps/sites differed - the Northern TVMs do the same.
Hi,
I am an international medical student. I was travelling from Preston to Burnley on 19th May. I got tickets but bought them using the railcard, which I was told was not applicable before 10 am. The conductor nicely explained this to me and gave me a penalty fare. She also asked me to appeal this with Nothern. I did so but they rejected my appeal. I then moved to pay the penalty but it showed a payment error on multiple attempts. I then emailed northern and showed them a screenshot of this, but I received no response.
I had exams after which I was finally flying home after not being able to afford to do so for a long while. I did continue emailing them throughout but received no response. I then came back for 3-4 days in August to resit for an exam (a very expensive affair, which has left me with no way of visiting family in the next year or so). I got my mail from reception (student accommodation) after the last exam and found more mails from northern with a reminder and 2 with added penalty fares reaching up to £90-ish. Since it was evening and I was due to leave for Manchester at 3 am for an early flight, there was no way to contact Northern.
I continued emailing them with no response as usual. Finally, via Facebook messenger, I received a response from a team who then directed my issue to another team. In the end, they asked me to pay £52.80. However, my payment was still showing errors. I have now come back to a Single Justice Procedure Notice with an attached settlement offer (of £100+outstanding fare if not wanting to take this to court). I called the Nothern number provided and they said the court date for the SJPN was yesterday. I obviously had no clue about this so I could not plead my case whatsoever. They gave me another number for "court". The nice lady there said to wait for the fine to be delivered from the court and then call her back. Then we tell the court I was not during this time, and try to appeal to Nothern under mitigating circumstances (or something like this, I can't recall exact wordings). This lady also said this is just a fine and does not fall under criminal charges. Something about DBS was said but I think it was to the effect of NOT affecting my DBS.
I don't know how much the court decides to fine, but I am a student and cannot pay a three-digit amount let alone get a lawyer for this. I don't even know if I am supposed to plead guilty or not. I've been super stressed and unable to sleep. I then went on a Reddit forum where someone said to submit a statutory declaration form to un-fine me and come back to the point of SJPN notifying me with a 21-day time period to plead guilty or not guilty. I was then thinking I could take Nothern up for their settlement offer if this goes the way the Reddit user said. But I don't know if I should go ahead with this or what the lady said. Or if they would even consider the settlement offer again? Should I speak to them about this or not? The Reddit user also said to contact Nothern Debt Recovery and Prosecutions unit but I can't find a number for this.
You could seek help form your Students Union in sorting this out - esp if thy have an agreement with a local solicitor to take on cases at low or no cost. This may help especially if you need to do a Statutory Declaration for example to 'reset the clock' on this matter ref the court action.
HOWEVER - it's likely that you will find more expert advice on here about that than you will find at the Students Union (I doubt they are known for their expertise on rail ticket regulations and ticket law) - but you will need to answer some of the questions people are posting so as you get the best advice.
Would help if you can post copies of the correspondence you have had throughout all of this (from the beginning - were you handed anything on the train for example) - with your personal details blanked out.
The staff member may well therefore have considered that the OP's action was intentional and issued a PF. (ISTR another recent thread where the OP had done much the same.)
If they considered it was done in order to avoid payment of the correct fare, they could have taken OP's details for prosecution, but they couldn't have issued a Penalty Fare.
It's probably worth reminding people of the SRA's position on this. While the SRA is long gone, the underlying factors that led to its decision don't appear to have changed, so I think it could be argued that its reasoning remains persuasive today.
Ticket restrictions. Many types of ticket cannot be used at certain times of day, on certain
days of the week or on certain trains. These ticket restrictions can be complicated, and even
familiar tickets such as cheap day returns can have different restrictions on different routes.
If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the
restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to
avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that
each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold.
Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the
journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket
restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the
National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
Once again this highlights what we've lost, as the train companies and the DfT slide into formulaic approaches that neglect the reasonable expectation of a demonstrable level of culpability before a penalty can be imposed.
If the hearing was yesterday, you will have been convicted in your absence. Therefore there is no point going straight to Northern and trying to appeal this with them - they cannot overturn the conviction. Only the court can do that, after you submit your statutory declaration.
I am thinking of sending a statutory declaration. I have just received a fine of £415.40 for a £11.40 ticket! (Fine £220; Comp £11.40; Victim Sur £34; Costs £150). However, the person on the phone to Preston Magistrate said there probably won't be a change even then since I will be pleading guilty. TBH I have NO idea if I am to plead guilty or not. I spoke to Nothern debt and penalty people again and they said a settlement offer MIGHT be made if the statutory declaration is confirmed from court. But its case by case so can't say if it'll reduce my pay or anything at all. (PS They also vehemently deny receiving emails from me, but I had sent emails to every and any email I found, also they had no records of my contact with FB Messenger App Nothern ppl.)
That being said, let's just come back to the Penalty Fare. Did Northern ever send you a letter/email saying this was being cancelled? Take a look back through your post/emails if need be. This could be an important detail in all this.
Yes, I could login to the place my penalty was appealed on this website, where it said the appeal has been denied and I am to pay the amount (At the time had increased to £32)
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, using a Railcard-discounted ticket before 10am isn't something for which you should have been issued with a Penalty Fare for. Nor is it something for which you can even be prosecuted, unless there is evidence that you have done this deliberately in order to avoid the correct fare (e.g. through repeated purchase history). Is this the full story? I would be surprised if the conductor (sounds more like a Revenue Protection Inspector to me, but that's immaterial) had got the rules that wrong.
Yes. I used a railcard discounted ticket to travel at 8 am on a train. Found out on the train from this ticket checker lady that I can't use my railcard before 10 am. Never had this happen to me before, not sure why she did that. I have taken that train multiple times. No one ever questioned it. I feel honestly I never went on the train with an intention to evade or fool anyone, it was an honest unknowing mistake. Idk if that means I am guilty or what. Idk what to do once it gets turned back to statutory declaration even.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It is I googled answers but didn't think of forums. TBF I am a medical student and my finals were right on my head while this was going on. It was too hectic and stressful for me. I receive extra time in exams due to some disability I don't wish to disclose here, but that also prevents me from processing too much at the same time.
Did you have sufficient money available to pay the difference in fare on the spot? Were you asked to do so?
In normal circumstances you should have been asked to pay just that and that would have been the end of the matter.
This should have been mentioned in your appeal, but even if it wasn't, the people handling the appeal should have recognised the situation and acted accordingly.
This rule exists because it was considered unfair to penalise people who had failed to navigate their way through the complexity of railway time restrictions correctly.
Did you appeal using the formal process? Perhaps you could share the response you received (with personal details removed)?
Yes, I did show the railcard and it was and is still valid.
Here's the appeal:
Date
Status
23-May-22 08:43
Appeal under assessment
23-May-22 08:43
Appeal raised
07-Jun-22 12:36
Appeal rejected
Hi.
I had bought a ticket the morning I received this notice. However as advised I had used my railcard for this train. After having travelled the same way on the same journey at the same time 3 times, this was the first time they had mentioned I could not do this. I had no prior knowledge of the railcard not being usable before 10am. Most of my travel is going to be at this time. Had I known this I would not waste my money on a railcard that cannot be used at the time I travel. The lady checking my ticket was kind enough to sit down and explain this to me in detail. However, I believe I should’ve been given a warning as I did technically buy a ticket and my intention was not to try and travel without using a ticket. I was happy to have paid the difference or even buy another ticket as that would’ve been cheaper. As the lady explained I would’ve been fine traveling on the next train but this train I could not. However no one told me this before. Moreover the ticket I bought was scanned and they said this means I cannot refund this ticket. Meaning I was charged for a honest mistake for an unusable ticket, a penalty fare and a basically useless railcard. I am a student and this blows my budget out of the water as well. If I could’ve saved on the railcard and the penalty, that would cover my travel costs for the month. Please consider this instance as an honest mistake and let me go with a warning. I would really appreciate your understanding.
RESPONSE for appeal:
Dear [name],
To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk. Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at all. A penalty fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which has an approved penalty fare scheme in place. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession. The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a penalty fare. I understand it was thought the railcard discounted ticket produced for inspection was valid for the journey made, however, that isn’t the case I’m afraid. The conditions of use of the railcard outlines additional restrictions which will apply to any tickets you buy when using it. As you have traveled outside these conditions, your ticket was not valid for travel. It remains the passenger’s responsibility to confirm that their ticket is valid for their entire journey they intend making before boarding the train. This also involves checking the time and date of travel and that the route on the ticket is also valid. Other applicable restrictions added by the use of a railcard must also be adhered to. As the railcard discounted ticket produced for inspection was not valid for the journey undertaken, regrettably it has been concluded by Penalty Services that the penalty fare should stand. Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision. If doing so, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account.
A further appeal should be submitted by post to: Penalty Services, PO Box 1258, KING'S LYNN, PE30 9GJ. or through our web site at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14 days of the date this letter was received. Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Miss Taba Khan Flat G07a Brunel Court Ladywell Street Preston PR1 2YF Regulations 2018. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date received is the letter date. If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any outstanding debt within the same 14 day time period. Failure to pay may result in administration fees being added by the train company or its debt recovery agency and/or the train company may choose to commence court proceedings to recover the outstanding debt. HOW TO PAY You can pay in any of the following ways: By Card at www.northernrailway.co.uk/paymynotice. By Phone at 0844 409 2717 where calls are 5p per minute plus network charge. By Post with a Postal Order payable to: Northern Trains Limited, and posted to: Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit, Northern Trains Limited, FREEPOST NEA 3188, BRADFORD, BD1 1BR. Thank you for using Penalty Services.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
One thing worth mentioning - if you got a penalty fare (for whatever reason) and subsequently appealed it, even if that appeal was rejected, I believe that you may have a defence to any prosecution in that the prosecution is statute-barred. I'm sure @Watershed will come back to confirm this (or otherwise), but if so, it's important to get the statutory declaration in as soon as possible.
I think it would also be worth establishing if the OP actually got a Penalty Fare (which I don't believe Northern guards can issue) in the first instance.
Yes, Its most defintely a penalty fare. The ticket checker lady said so, the appeals, the SJP notice, it all says so. All letters received in mail with regards to this said so as well.
I hope the OP has saved some evidence of the numerous "payment errors" they say they encountered when trying to settle the matter. It would be most unlucky indeed for the payment systems to be out of order so many times at the exact times that the OP was attempting to pay.
I have. I have one from when I tried consecutively for 2 days but just took 1 screenshot. I think I have one from September here somewhere as well. On speaking to this lady from debt recovery and prosecutions, she said she only received 1 of my emails all the way back in august. and the response said i should be able to pay now. I don't have this email though not even in junk. And either way payment was still showing errors in September so things weren't sorted. She then said it must be my internet connection. But that's not true, everything else worked just fine. It was showing error whilst in UK and then whilst I was back home in a different country too.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Well, we have to take the OP's account at face value - they are harming no-one but themselves if their account is inaccurate. It's possible that the payment errors occurred due to trying to use a foreign-registered card to pay.
I am not sure this applies here - the OP didn't simply buy the wrong ticket, they applied a Railcard discount that wasn't applicable (at that time).
Having checked on the Northern app, it is impossible to buy a discounted ticket as the OP did without choosing a departure after 10.00. I would be surprised if other apps/sites differed - the Northern TVMs do the same.
The staff member may well therefore have considered that the OP's action was intentional and issued a PF. (ISTR another recent thread where the OP had done much the same.)
Hi, Yes I think that may be it. However, it has never caused a problem so far. I used Trainline app. The staff member did not see my trainline ticket however, she saw my apple wallet ticket which is what has been submitted as evidence as well. Im so worried, I genuinely did not mean to do this intentionally though. What do I do
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
You could seek help form your Students Union in sorting this out - esp if thy have an agreement with a local solicitor to take on cases at low or no cost. This may help especially if you need to do a Statutory Declaration for example to 'reset the clock' on this matter ref the court action.
HOWEVER - it's likely that you will find more expert advice on here about that than you will find at the Students Union (I doubt they are known for their expertise on rail ticket regulations and ticket law) - but you will need to answer some of the questions people are posting so as you get the best advice.
Would help if you can post copies of the correspondence you have had throughout all of this (from the beginning - were you handed anything on the train for example) - with your personal details blanked out.
Yes ofc! I will give you guys whatever you need please do help! I am so worried I can't sleep. I legit got sick the past 3 days. I'll scan and send everything blurring out personal details.
Is it possible the penalty was cancelled by the Train Operating Company, and therefore the payment system had no record of an outstanding charge and could not accept her payment? Therefore the error messages received had nothing to do with being a poor connection or overseas card - there simply wasn't an outstanding charge on the system.
Here's my correspondence so far. I emailed them to receive a response asking me to wait 5 working days, when no answer came through I started using their online forums for queries and things and got 1 response saying we have referred you to the DRPU team. I got no response from DRPU even when I directly emailed them. I then got to FB Messenger and got some responses which you can see below.
Here's my correspondence so far. I emailed them to receive a response asking me to wait 5 working days, when no answer came through I started using their online forums for queries and things and got 1 response saying we have referred you to the DRPU team. I got no response from DRPU even when I directly emailed them. I then got to FB Messenger and got some responses which you can see below.
No problem. If you have an iPhone, you can edit the screenshot and block out your details with white ink. I'm sure most other phones will let you do the same too.
As others have said, you need to be contacting the court, not Northern. If you have been convicted of an offence in your absence, only the court can rectify that. This needs to be done in writing – no phone calls, no forums, and no Facebook messages. Email is probably OK. There is a 21 day deadline to submit a statutory declaration, starting from when you become aware of the proceedings. The clock is ticking.
If you do succeed in getting the matter reset, you'll still need to pay the amount demanded by Northern, in one go. They don't do instalments and they rarely negotiate settlements.
Here's my first actual contact from the team via Facebook Messenger. As you can see I did reach out frequently. In the end they kept asking me to call these numbers which I couldn't have due to not being in this country.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
These are responses from online forms and other areas when I struggled to find a way to contact and get a response from northern. the last one is the penalty result.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
From the court: Since I have come back I received the SJP Notice. This has a settlement offer attached. Theres a charge sheet, but its facts are incorrect I think, have a look (attached). Theres forms for pleading guilty or not etc. for the court. Theres the whole notice of the original penalty fare. Theres a witness statement from the lady who gave me the penalty fare (attached). Some stuff about how to pay the fine and some contact numbers etc.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
After receiving the SJP notice, nothern said talk to court. Court said wait for the fine and then call back. Finally got the mail today with the fine (mentioned above how much etc.). Called magistrate back but their system was rebooted or something so they gave a number to call and email to write the whole explanation about me not being here and was told that I don't need to do the statutory form then but also told it wont make a difference to my current fine either way since i am pleading guilty idk. I am in the process of sending said email. Called the number, they had the same problem with system being down so have to call them tomorrow.
You could seek help form your Students Union in sorting this out - esp if thy have an agreement with a local solicitor to take on cases at low or no cost. This may help especially if you need to do a Statutory Declaration for example to 'reset the clock' on this matter ref the court action.
HOWEVER - it's likely that you will find more expert advice on here about that than you will find at the Students Union (I doubt they are known for their expertise on rail ticket regulations and ticket law) - but you will need to answer some of the questions people are posting so as you get the best advice.
Would help if you can post copies of the correspondence you have had throughout all of this (from the beginning - were you handed anything on the train for example) - with your personal details blanked out.
As others have said, you need to be contacting the court, not Northern. If you have been convicted of an offence in your absence, only the court can rectify that. This needs to be done in writing – no phone calls, no forums, and no Facebook messages. Email is probably OK. There is a 21 day deadline to submit a statutory declaration, starting from when you become aware of the proceedings. The clock is ticking.
If you do succeed in getting the matter reset, you'll still need to pay the amount demanded by Northern, in one go. They don't do instalments and they rarely negotiate settlements.
Is anyone at all going to consider my situation of being abroad and diligence in contacting and trying to pay? I have posted the evidence here now. Is there no one in the process I am going through, that would consider these things? Is this not evidence that I have not been trying to avoid paying the penalty fare? I can't pay for a lawyer, I have no income. I have x amount of money for rent, uni fees, and personal expenses. Nothing extra whatsoever. I am struggling to come up with ways to pay for the £415.40 the court has fined me with. Not to forget the DBS issues I will face, especially as a student doctor. I don't even know how to get through to citizen's advice. I did see a thread which lead me to this forum where a girl was being taken to court and managed somehow to reduce her fine to £111 (approx fig i cant remember exactly). I can't find the thread neither did she specify how she got this person who helped her reduce the fine.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
As others have said, you need to be contacting the court, not Northern. If you have been convicted of an offence in your absence, only the court can rectify that. This needs to be done in writing – no phone calls, no forums, and no Facebook messages. Email is probably OK. There is a 21 day deadline to submit a statutory declaration, starting from when you become aware of the proceedings. The clock is ticking.
If you do succeed in getting the matter reset, you'll still need to pay the amount demanded by Northern, in one go. They don't do instalments and they rarely negotiate settlements.
Yes, I understand time is of the essence. I became aware of this on 19th October. The reason I waited was that the lady I spoke to on call with from the magistrate court said to wait for the fine. Another lady today has said to email lancsncenq@justice.gov.uk explaining my conviction in absence and that then the statutory declaration is not required. She also said they are backlogged so it will take at least 5 working days to get back. But the time for statutory declaration is running out. For statutory declaration, someone needs to sign it as well. I am not sure how to do that. I am not confident that I have filled the form out correctly so far either. I am so stressed.
Hello - I'm sorry you're in this situation. Strange but true:
You're innocent of the offence cited on the charge sheet, because (unlike the misleading version the company wrote) it requires you to fail to give your name and address. The actual offence is in the first paragraph:
How to challenge a decision by a magistrates' court. Including how to get a fine reviewed, if you did not know about your case, how to appeal to the Crown Court.
www.gov.uk
The 21-day time limit for a statutory declaration is not absolute. If it is met, the court is obliged to void the conviction. Otherwise the court needs the defendant to explain the delay satisfactorily. That is explained at the bottom of page 1 of the form:
How to challenge a decision by a magistrates' court. Including how to get a fine reviewed, if you did not know about your case, how to appeal to the Crown Court.
www.gov.uk
(The last link above is different, even if the forum software displays it with the same text as before).
It's probably better to get answers from the court staff in writing rather than on the phone.
You can ask on here about specific aspects of the declaration form which are not clear.
Call a local solicitor and ask them how much they would charge to witness the declaration (maybe £5 or £10). Make an appointment for that.
Take the witnessed declaration to the court and ask whether it's filled in properly, and hand it over.
You probably need to tell your medical school about the conviction - it may say that on the school's website.
Your student union may be able to give legal or other support.
Evidence would need to have been submitted to the court before or at the court date. Submitting a statutory declaration will get you a new court date so that you can submit whatever it is you want to submit.
Hopefully there won't be a court date, after the company and/or the magistrate (who is supposed to check before issuing a summons) understand that you can't be lawfully convicted.
The company is not allowed to prosecute for the usual railway ticketing offences after a penalty fare appeal has been decided. Section 5(1), under which you have been unlawfully convicted, is an exception, which may well be why they attempted to use it. The position now is that they are unable to substitute an appropriate, different offence for the court to consider.
When you submit the declaration, include your not-guilty plea responding to the SJPN.
You can also make your statutory declaration before a solicitor, it will cost less than £10.
Once your statutory declaration has been accepted by the court, you can then plead not guilty, and we can work with you to getting the case withdrawn/dismissed on the grounds that the offence charged requires you to have:
Failed to produce a ticket; and
Failed to pay the fare from where you came; and
Failed to give your name and address.
Since you didn't fail to do all three of those things, you cannot be said to be guilty of the offence if you explain that in a hearing.
You really do need to concentrate on following the procedure as opposed to writing prolix grievances about people "not considering your situation" or how you can't afford X, Y, and Z.
I would expect your medical school to provide welfare services for this kind of worry (in addition to services provided by the student union). And maybe there is a tutor you would feel comfortable talking to.
Don't delay telling the school in writing about the conviction, as keeping information from them can be regarded as much worse than if you were guilty in the first place. (I'm assuming they do require you to tell them - it would be odd if they didn't).
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Another point: It was explained in these threads how prosecutions under section 5(1) can't lawfully be started via an SJPN. I'm not aware of any argument as to why those explanations could be wrong. Maybe a court could use the original "information laid" to issue a summons to a full court hearing even if the correct procedure hadn't been followed at the start, but it's hard to see how a conviction via the single justice procedure could have been lawful even if the "offence" alleged by the company in your case had actually existed.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/pdfs/uksiem_20180366_en.pdf look what I found on the explanatory notes section of the legislation written by a civil servant in the department for transport & he still works there… note point 7.1. I can’t wait for court next week. Was there are...
www.railforums.co.uk
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Where a case was tried under the Single Justice Procedure, the defendant must respond to the SJPN (and so, make a plea) at the same time as "serving" the declaration. This is mentioned in the "How to use this form" section of the declaration form.
Pleased to see that @some bloke has picked up the point I had proposed to make about the unlawful employment of the Single Justice Procedure.
The paperwork the OP has uploaded demonstrates conclusively that the OP gave her name and address when it was requested for the purpose of completing the penalty fare notice. This means that she has fulfilled one of the courses of action required of her by Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act and consequently has a defence to the charge she faces. Plainly she should, as a matter of urgency, make the requisite statutory declaration to re-set the proceedings and enter a 'not guilty' plea.
Had Northern Trains Ltd followed the correct procedure and laid an information in the correct manner prescribed by the Magistrates Courts Act 1980 there was at least some prospect of a magistrate's clerk scrutinising it and recognising that the evidence lodged in support disclosed a defence to the Section 5(1) charge and that, on the face of it, the prosecution could not succeed. Once again recourse to the Single Justice Procedure has bypassed that protection for the citizen.
It's disappointing to note the similarities of this case to the Merseyrail case linked by @some bloke. In both:
The passenger was charged a penalty far and appealed it unsuccessfully.
Since the appeal precluded a byelaw or Section 5(3) RoRA prosecution, the TOC instead sought a conviction under Section 5(1) when the penalty fare remained unpaid.
The TOC relied upon a perverse interpretation of Section 5(1)'s wording that “[failing] to deliver up a ticket showing that his fare is paid” created a substantive offence additional to that set out in Section 5(3) (incidentally without the Section 5(3) requirement that intent to avoid payment must be proved).
To bypass the laying of an information under the 'old style' procedure, the TOC commenced criminal proceedings by means of the Single Justice Procedure which it had no authority to invoke.
These similarities are so extensive as to suggest that abuse of the SJP and of the offence created by Section 5(1) may have become a standard response of multiple TOCs who are dissatisfied with the available civil law remedies for non-payment of a penalty fare.
Where a case was tried under the Single Justice Procedure, the defendant must respond to the SJPN (and so, make a plea) at the same time as "serving" the declaration. This is mentioned in the "How to use this form" section of the declaration form.
Can a defendant be under an obligation to enter a plea or otherwise respond to a SJPN that has been issued without the requisite authority to do so? Might the entire criminal proceeding have been rendered null and void by virtue of the taint arising from the unlawful means by which it was commenced? I don't know the answer but suspect that the nullity point is at least arguable.
I can't see how they could be. But in practical terms sticking to the rules as if there had been a valid notice and so including a response might make the process smoother.
Perhaps a note would be in order along the lines of "this is my response to the document entitled "Single Justice Procedure Notice" but as far as I am aware, the company is not a "Relevant Prosecutor" under X legislation for a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 prosecution through the Single Justice Procedure, so that the purported Notice seems invalid".
Might the entire criminal proceeding have been rendered null and void by virtue of the taint arising from the unlawful means by which it was commenced?
There is clearly no obligation, as a verdict has been reached without a plea being entered. However, If you are summonsed to court in any form and you believe you have a valid defence failing to enter a plea is stupid. A valid defence is the basis of a not guilty plea and so that is what should be submitted.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
I googled answers but didn't think of forums. TBF I am a medical student and my finals were right on my head while this was going on. It was too hectic and stressful for me. I receive extra time in exams due to some disability I don't wish to disclose here, but that also prevents me from processing too much at the same time. 
