Serco for Sleeper

[Marklund]

I really like the idea of having on-train entertainment included, makes it sound like a cruise liner or railtour-style service

That sounds like hell to me.
When I go home to visit the parents, I want to get on the sleeper, go to the lounge car, have a couple of drinks, and go to bed. I don't want to be part of some cabaret.

 

[jon0844]

That sounds like hell to me.
When I go home to visit the parents, I want to get on the sleeper, go to the lounge car, have a couple of drinks, and go to bed. I don't want to be part of some cabaret.

Then do that. On a boat you don't have to participate in any of the entertainment or even leave your cabin if you so wish.

The only issue is if you are made to pay extra for it.

 

[NotATrainspott]

That sounds like hell to me.
When I go home to visit the parents, I want to get on the sleeper, go to the lounge car, have a couple of drinks, and go to bed. I don't want to be part of some cabaret.

I presume it would only be for the Highland operation, given that they spend much more of their journey during the evening. That sort of thing would be what sustains the Sleeper for the future though once HS2 is extended all the way and a Central Belt sleeper looks as ridiculous as a Manchester or Leeds one is today. The sleepers would then have to sustain themselves on the business of people who aren't interested in arriving quickly, and they're much more interested in these sorts of activities than I imagine you are.

A bad comparison to use would be the transition from ocean liners to cruise ships. The former had a real transport role before the dawn of aviation and the demand was always to get from one side of the Atlantic to the other as quickly as possible. Conversely, no one uses a cruise ship to go quickly as the journey itself is part of the appeal.

 

[Marklund]

Then do that. On a boat you don't have to participate in any of the entertainment or even leave your cabin if you so wish.

The only issue is if you are made to pay extra for it.

A boat is a lot bigger than a lounge car, lots of places to go and have a relaxing drink in peace, unless the plan is for a separate lounge/bar, and an "entertainment" coach of course.
Otherwise, I'm not convinced this would work well for everyone.

The fair few times I've used the sleeper, in particular on the southbound home leg, it's a relaxing (i.e. help you sleep better!) drink is all that's wanted.

 

[Altnabreac]

Something that will have to be addressed is how the new carriages would fit in Euston. At the moment an 8-car rake is 6x23m Mk3 sleepers and 2x20m Mk2 day/brake coaches. At Euston you have two 8-car rakes with a 20m locomotive at either end, so 12x23+4x20+2x20=396m long, which is to the best of my knowledge just shorter than the sleeper platforms. If you replace the 20m vehicles with 23m vehicles the rake will be too long to fit there. One possibility could be to provide a cab at one end of the 8-car rake, so that there's no longer any need to bring in a second locomotive to pull the rake out of each of the termini (which will be more than useful to help reduce the need for paths into Euston during the rebuild).

Could definitely see the logic of cab ends as you can save multiple loco move requirements and shunts that way as well as saving on train length.

As regards the 75 new vehicles mentioned in the business case, I'm inclined to think that's an error as all the earlier publicity and information mentioned 72 new vehicles.

Especially given the reduced requirement for the extra Fort William sleeper and lounge car you would expect the new stock to be based on a higher utilisation rate. Not sure whether the 72 carriages will just be 9 semi-permanently coupled half sets or perhaps more likely 8 half sets plus 2 spare of each carriage type (2 business sleeper, 2 sleeper, 2 seated, 2 club car) depends whether seated cars are a mixture of pods and recliners or a coach of each perhaps.

The other consideration is that if Inverness ceased to be the heavy maintenance base the Highland Sleeper could be divided 5,5,6 or 4,6,6 to better spread capacity particularly with the need for at least four Fort William carriages to leave Euston each night instead of just 2 now.

Have also been wondering how to serve the Edinburgh - Fort William and Kingussie - Inverness daytime traffic. Had wondered if extra seated cars would be considered but it occurred to me you could seat those day passengers in the new club cars instead. Added bonus that their boarding won't disturb pod/recliner customers.

 

[Marklund]

I presume it would only be for the Highland operation, given that they spend much more of their journey during the evening. That sort of thing would be what sustains the Sleeper for the future though once HS2 is extended all the way and a Central Belt sleeper looks as ridiculous as a Manchester or Leeds one is today. The sleepers would then have to sustain themselves on the business of people who aren't interested in arriving quickly, and they're much more interested in these sorts of activities than I imagine you are.

I was with you until the last statement. Entertainment would principally be for leisure travellers IMHO, I just can't buy in to the people on business getting on down to an night of, say, accordion music in the lounge!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I was with you until the last statement. Entertainment would principally be for leisure travellers IMHO, I just can't buy in to the people on business getting on down to an night of, say, accordion music in the lounge!

That's what I was trying to say. The business traveller aspect of the sleeper will gradually fade away as HS2 gets extended up to Scotland, while the costs of running the sleeper aren't going to decrease much at the same time. If the sleeper is going to continue for the smaller number of people it is important for then it will have to appeal to a wider leisure audience, and the fact that entertainment of this sort is possible means it's going to be possible in 15 or 25 years' time when it is essential.

 

[Paule23]

That's what I was trying to say. The business traveller aspect of the sleeper will gradually fade away as HS2 gets extended up to Scotland, while the costs of running the sleeper aren't going to decrease much at the same time. If the sleeper is going to continue for the smaller number of people it is important for then it will have to appeal to a wider leisure audience, and the fact that entertainment of this sort is possible means it's going to be possible in 15 or 25 years' time when it is essential.

I don't see why the business traveller aspect would fade away with HS2. I use the sleeper as it gets me into London before 0700, and let's men get to the office before 0900 all without having to get up at stupid o'clock. Even with a 3 1/2 hour journey time (assuming HS2 could give such speed, which is not forecast), you would still need to get on a train before 0500 to ensure, with transfers, you can get to an 0900 meeting.

The attraction of the sleeper will still be there, I don't see HS2 making any impact on this.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't see why the business traveller aspect would fade away with HS2. I use the sleeper as it gets me into London before 0700, and let's men get to the office before 0900 all without having to get up at stupid o'clock. Even with a 3 1/2 hour journey time (assuming HS2 could give such speed, which is not forecast), you would still need to get on a train before 0500 to ensure, with transfers, you can get to an 0900 meeting.

The attraction of the sleeper will still be there, I don't see HS2 making any impact on this.

HS2 all the way to Scotland gives a 2hr20 journey time, which is enough to make an early start reasonable. HS2 will open at 0500 Monday-Saturday and to get into London for 1000 you only need to leave around 0700 or so. Effectively the same timings will apply to Scotland travel as apply to Manchester travel now.

 

[route:oxford]

HS2 all the way to Scotland gives a 2hr20 journey time, which is enough to make an early start reasonable. HS2 will open at 0500 Monday-Saturday and to get into London for 1000 you only need to leave around 0700 or so. Effectively the same timings will apply to Scotland travel as apply to Manchester travel now.

It all depends on what happens in September.

Without Scotland, I can't see any reason why rUK wouldn't switch to European time. This would be a massive benefit to anyone in England travelling abroad for work. An 06:30 Eurostar would arrive in Paris for 08:50, with a similar benefit for former domestic services.

But from Scotland, allowing for a 3 hour journey and heritage UK working hours, you'd leave at 5am to be in London for 9am...

 

[Bodiddly]

HS2 all the way to Scotland gives a 2hr20 journey time, which is enough to make an early start reasonable. HS2 will open at 0500 Monday-Saturday and to get into London for 1000 you only need to leave around 0700 or so. Effectively the same timings will apply to Scotland travel as apply to Manchester travel now.

HS2 to Scotland is a very long way off. The current franchise is for 15 years. Even that amount of time will not see the high speed link reach Scotland. The sleeper has it's place for the business and leisure traveler alike and who is to say a business man/woman travelling down wouldn't want to get involved with the entertainment? You can still have a ceilidh and attend a meeting in the morning!
The sleeper is an expensive train to run and the logistics in providing the service are huge. I think I read somewhere that each train, 2 North and 2 South attracts a £19000 subsidy, £76000 per night! Even if every train was full to bursting, they still couldn't make a profit. This is where I can't understand the figures Serco are banding around. Call me a pessimist but I think Serco will walk away at some point in the near future, realising that it's just not worth the bother.

 

[HSTEd]

It all depends on what happens in September.

Without Scotland, I can't see any reason why rUK wouldn't switch to European time. This would be a massive benefit to anyone in England travelling abroad for work. An 06:30 Eurostar would arrive in Paris for 08:50, with a similar benefit for former domestic services.

But from Scotland, allowing for a 3 hour journey and heritage UK working hours, you'd leave at 5am to be in London for 9am...

Uh.......
You think economic reasons are the reasons that the UK hasn't adopted European time?
It is historical and cultural reasons - there is a great deal of attachment to GMT.
Also Northern Ireland is quite far north as well.......

 

[HH]

The business case for caledonian sleeper can be found here.

 

[adrock1976]

Uh.......
You think economic reasons are the reasons that the UK hasn't adopted European time?
It is historical and cultural reasons - there is a great deal of attachment to GMT.
Also Northern Ireland is quite far north as well.......

Also going slightly south, the Republic of Ireland also uses GMT. Continuing a lot further south, Portugal and Morocco (unsure about Gibraltar though) currently use GMT too.

In peace

Adam

 

[NotATrainspott]

Much of Europe only joined Central European Time because of Hitler, and they've never bothered to change back. France, Spain and the Benelux should all be in GMT.

 

[theageofthetra]

The sticking with GMT has nothing to do with Scottish objections. It allows one hour extra trading with New York and Chicago stock/metal/other commodity exchanges over the rest of mainland EU. Its why the ludicrous EU backed plan in early 90's for Berlin to become the main trading exchange in Europe, hatched after the Wende, has been a spectacular failure. That and a hopelessly controlled, inflexible job market.

 

[northwichcat]

Also going slightly south, the Republic of Ireland also uses GMT. Continuing a lot further south, Portugal and Morocco (unsure about Gibraltar though) currently use GMT too.

In peace

Adam

Gibraltar uses CET. There aren't any cross-border bus services between Gibraltar and Spain which would create any timetable confusions by using a different time zone to Spain, while I think all the flights using Gibraltar Airport are to/from the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Much of Europe only joined Central European Time because of Hitler, and they've never bothered to change back. France, Spain and the Benelux should all be in GMT.

If you want to use an accurate model shouldn't some countries be on GMT+0.5 opposed to GMT+1? I think it's only in Europe that every country is on GMT or a full number hours ahead of it.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Gibraltar uses CET. There aren't any cross-border bus services between Gibraltar and Spain which would create any timetable confusions by using a different time zone to Spain, while I think all the flights using Gibraltar Airport are to/from the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you want to use an accurate model shouldn't some countries be on GMT+0.5 opposed to GMT+1? I think it's only in Europe that every country is on GMT or a full number hours ahead of it.

Here's a map showing how 'off' the time zones are - more red, more wrong:

The stripes are ±30minutes, and you can see that the German-Swiss-Italian border is pretty much spot on where you should switch from GMT to GMT+1. Likewise the eastern edge of Poland-Slovakia-Hungary-Serbia-FYRofMacedonia is pretty much spot on for the next switch after that. Greece probably could do with being put on a half-hour time zone though, given that it is basically cut in half.

 

[DownSouth]

Any possible change of time zones at the border between post-secession Scotland and the UK will be easily handled by Serco – their GSR operation in Australia handles three time zones during winter and four during summer when the Northern Territory stays on ACST while South Australia goes forward an hour to ACDT.

If you want to use an accurate model shouldn't some countries be on GMT+0.5 opposed to GMT+1? I think it's only in Europe that every country is on GMT or a full number hours ahead of it.

The continent of Africa is equal with Europe in having no offset time zones, and both North America and South America has only one very small area (Newfoundland) using an offset time zone.

As a person who lives in an offset time zone (UTC+9.5/10.5 – Australian Central Standard/Daylight Time) I can assure you it's a pain in the a®$e which should be avoided at all costs. It certainly creates some interesting timetabling of east-west trains where the changeover point from CST/CDT to WST at Cook is also a fuel stop – see if you can pick out the only east-west operator to not stop there (because they have mastered inline refuelling) from the current master train plan.

It would be better if we simply adopted UTC+10/11 (Eastern Standard/Daylight Time) to have the same time zone as the populated eastern states of Australia which is where business is centred. The Greeks have done this right – by choosing UTC+2 it means they have the same time as some of their neighbouring countries, which is far better than having the same time as none of their neighbours.

The choice of the Benelux countries to all go for UTC+1 is quite understandable, with the exception of the agricultural areas of western Flanders they are all within the range from 3°45'E to 11°15'E where UTC+0.5 would be the most accurate time zone, assuming that we're only allowing offsets of 30 minutes and not 45 minutes as in Nepal and the Chatham Islands to the east of New Zealand. Therefore it makes sense to pick the full hour time zone which corresponds to the greatest convenience for cross-border travel, rather than the one which is slightly closer to being most accurate.

It's important to remember that GMT/UTC is an arbitrary time that doesn't actually correspond to solar noon (solar noon varies by 31 minutes across the year) and therefore there's no point in being too obsessive about the accuracy of time zones when that accuracy has already been lost.

It is historical and cultural reasons - there is a great deal of attachment to GMT.

If the economic reasons to join Europe on UTC+1 (CET) were for real (i.e. not simply resolved by businesses getting those people whose jobs revolve around links with European businesses to turn up to work at 8am) then the solution would be simple – redefine GMT from being UTC+0 to being UTC+1. You would get the best of both worlds, joining Europe on the same time zone but still getting to call it GMT for sentimental purposes.

 

[kylemore]

The sticking with GMT has nothing to do with Scottish objections. It allows one hour extra trading with New York and Chicago stock/metal/other commodity exchanges over the rest of mainland EU. Its why the ludicrous EU backed plan in early 90's for Berlin to become the main trading exchange in Europe, hatched after the Wende, has been a spectacular failure. That and a hopelessly controlled, inflexible job market.

I quite agree, here in North Ayrshire I see on a daily basis the magnificent benefits of an un-controlled, totally flexible, low paid serfdom-ish type economy.

That we're so far ahead of the Germans in every sphere is un-deniable.

Every time I visit Germany I'm full of pity for them having to live in such shocking conditions compared to good old Blighty!

 

[LateThanNever]

The sticking with GMT has nothing to do with Scottish objections. It allows one hour extra trading with New York and Chicago stock/metal/other commodity exchanges over the rest of mainland EU. Its why the ludicrous EU backed plan in early 90's for Berlin to become the main trading exchange in Europe, hatched after the Wende, has been a spectacular failure. That and a hopelessly controlled, inflexible job market.

I quite agree, here in North Ayrshire I see on a daily basis the magnificent benefits of an un-controlled, totally flexible, low paid serfdom-ish type economy.

That we're so far ahead of the Germans in every sphere is un-deniable.

Every time I visit Germany I'm full of pity for them having to live in such shocking conditions compared to good old Blighty!

I can quite understand it too, because these UK traders are so staggeringly brilliant that they cannot possibly organise themselves to work one hour longer

 

[Olaf]

Much of Europe only joined Central European Time because of Hitler, and they've never bothered to change back. France, Spain and the Benelux should all be in GMT.

Spain is currently debating a change to its timezone.

 

[Bodiddly]

Good old Serco are at it again! Overcharging the NHS by 'millions' according to a leaked report. This company are a bloody disaster waiting to happen and I genuinely fear for any sleeper staff who are to be TUPE'd over to this company. They should never have been able to bid for a government contract in the first place after the tagging debacle. Also, a new rumour doing the rounds is GB Railfreight will not be able to fulfill the contract to provide traction and traincrew for the sleeper services. I wonder with DRS purchasing all these shiny new ETH locomotives, there could be a change on the way?

 

[scotsman]

There is a rumour, and I stress that it is only a rumour, that Serco will now subcontract the operation to ScotRail.

 

[Qwerty133]

There is a rumour, and I stress that it is only a rumour, that Serco will now subcontract the operation to ScotRail.

From where?

 

[reb0118]

There is a rumour,.........

From where?

Possibly from the rumour mill................

To be fair this sounds no more preposterous than lots of other rumours regarding the Sleeper. If you think about it there is a certain logic about it.............

 

[Bodiddly]

There is a rumour, and I stress that it is only a rumour, that Serco will now subcontract the operation to ScotRail.

I also heard a whisper about this happening.
As Serco are an outsourcing company, this would be totally within their remit.

 

[scotraildriver]

I really really hope this is true, as a sleeper driver it would keep us valuable work. It would make some kind of sense: ie Serco simply hand Scotrail cash in exchange for traincrew, no hassles. BUT ASLEF and RMT both held joint talks with Serco 2 weeks ago and they categorically stated NO decisions will be taken until the main Scotrail franchise is decided. So seemingly all hearsay and gossip, or is it? Who knows.....

 

[Manchester77]

It did shock me when serco won but then again, that is basically their purpose - to respond to a public sector ITT and win it no matter how little experience or how they'll actually work the contract

 

[thealexweb]

I remember someone saying a few months ago that Serco is under no commitment to keep any of the England station stops expect London Euston. Has there been any more news on this? I know its unlikely but if they added Preston as a station stop on to the Edinburgh to London services it would use the service every month or so.