Serco for Sleeper

[DarloRich]

Presumably that just means the 6 termini. Although Dundee (platform 1) and Perth (platform 3) both have passing loops that would allow coaches to sit in the platform early before being shunted onto the back of the train when it arrives. But the hassle and expense probably isn't worth it.

Surely they are not going to split the train and shunt it - that would cost even more to run!

 

[clc]

The Full Business Case has been published. Not read it all but some interesting stuff, eg Class 73 and Class 92 locomotives are to replace the current Class 67 locomotives: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ed Version for Publication - 31 July 2014.pdf

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Full Business Case has been published. Not read it all but some interesting stuff, eg Class 73 and Class 92 locomotives are to replace the current Class 67 locomotives: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ed Version for Publication - 31 July 2014.pdf

It says that Serco don't actually know what they're going to get from CAF just yet, which is rather interesting. It also says their bid involving new stock was actually less expensive to Transport Scotland than either First or Arriva's refurbishment proposals.

 

[BRX]

One of the nice things about the mk2/3 stock is that in the morning you can open the window and breathe in some fresh* Highland air when you get up in the morning.

I wonder if there's any chance they could be persuaded to have a couple of openable windows built into the designs for the new stock.

Seems unlikely

(Can we start a campaign...?)


*possibly mixed with some fumes from the cl67

 

[Johnuk123]

One of the nice things about the mk2/3 stock is that in the morning you can open the window and breathe in some fresh* Highland air when you get up in the morning.

Of course you would only need them for the northern journey, coming south you don't need opening windows.

 

[Bodiddly]

The Full Business Case has been published. Not read it all but some interesting stuff, eg Class 73 and Class 92 locomotives are to replace the current Class 67 locomotives: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ed Version for Publication - 31 July 2014.pdf

Tells us absolute nothing as far as staff are concerned. It's about time Serco came clean about just exactly what they have in mind for the employees affected.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Would be great to see them decide to do Scotland to Midlands and SE/SW as an extra service.

 

[Altnabreac]

The Full Business Case has been published. Not read it all but some interesting stuff, eg Class 73 and Class 92 locomotives are to replace the current Class 67 locomotives: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ed Version for Publication - 31 July 2014.pdf

Interesting the business case identifies the Megabus sleeper coach as a cause of traffic decline since the high of 2011. This tallies with my recent experience where no sleeper berths were available and I had a choice of Seated Sleeper or Sleeper Coach for a similar price.

I opted for the coach and would choose it again everytime over the train as the benefit of lying flat meant I slept much better than in the seated sleeper.

Coming back the next night by ordinary overnight coach was horrific as ever. The new pods would definitely win me back to rail as its being flat that's so important for a decent night's sleep. I'd want to see how flat the reclining seats go before making a decision on whether they're possible to sleep in.

 

[clc]

Interesting the business case identifies the Megabus sleeper coach as a cause of traffic decline since the high of 2011. This tallies with my recent experience where no sleeper berths were available and I had a choice of Seated Sleeper or Sleeper Coach for a similar price.

I opted for the coach and would choose it again everytime over the train as the benefit of lying flat meant I slept much better than in the seated sleeper.

Coming back the next night by ordinary overnight coach was horrific as ever. The new pods would definitely win me back to rail as its being flat that's so important for a decent night's sleep. I'd want to see how flat the reclining seats go before making a decision on whether they're possible to sleep in.

There's an image of the reclining seat here: http://caledoniansleeper.info/new-fleet/

Sitting up on overnight coach sounds like hell. I've never done it though I have done the seated sleeper a few times and that was awful - never again! Would consider a lie flat pod, though I guess you'd still have to contend with your fellow passengers' snoring!

 

[Altnabreac]

There's an image of the reclining seat here: http://caledoniansleeper.info/new-fleet/

Sitting up on overnight coach sounds like hell. I've never done it though I have done the seated sleeper a few times and that was awful - never again! Would consider a lie flat pod, though I guess you'd still have to contend with your fellow passengers' snoring!

Seated sleeper is a bit better than overnight coach as at least the seat is a decent size.

The concept pictures of the reclining seats look better than both but I'd want to see it in person before making my mind up.

Sleeper Coach was surprisingly comfortable as you get both a seat and a flat bed. The downside is the articulated vehicles are a bit bouncy and the berths are quite small if you suffered from claustrophobia.

 

[JonathanH]

Seated sleeper is a bit better than overnight coach as at least the seat is a decent size.

The concept pictures of the reclining seats look better than both but I'd want to see it in person before making my mind up.

Sleeper Coach was surprisingly comfortable as you get both a seat and a flat bed. The downside is the articulated vehicles are a bit bouncy and the berths are quite small if you suffered from claustrophobia.

The bendy sleeper coaches are no more and towards the end the small compartments smelt a bit damp / airless.

Now, there are double deck coaches which have a lay flat bed but no private compartments.

 

[kylemore]

Tells us absolute nothing as far as staff are concerned. It's about time Serco came clean about just exactly what they have in mind for the employees affected.

It might be a good idea to contact the employees of Northlink Ferries who went through a similar process - although I would have expected your union reps to have done that long since.

 

[HSTEd]

Are these Class 73s pure diesel derivatives or do they retain their electric functionality despite the far bigger engine?

 

[jopsuk]

Tells us absolute nothing as far as staff are concerned. It's about time Serco came clean about just exactly what they have in mind for the employees affected.

There's some waffle about transferring staff over and the benefits of having a skilled and experienced workforce on day one of the new operation. I would not expect anything more from this document, and I would not actually expect more in a public document- the actual details of staff transfer should be communicated first and foremost directly to you guys. I can appreciate your frustration at still being in the dark however- appreciate you need somewhere to vent!

 

[Altnabreac]

There's some waffle about transferring staff over and the benefits of having a skilled and experienced workforce on day one of the new operation. I would not expect anything more from this document, and I would not actually expect more in a public document- the actual details of staff transfer should be communicated first and foremost directly to you guys. I can appreciate your frustration at still being in the dark however- appreciate you need somewhere to vent!

I appreciate the frustration caused by uncertainty for staff.

Have you seen the information about maintenance on this site:
http://caledoniansleeper.info/new-fleet/

It states all maintenance will be subcontracted to Alstom so presumably any TUPE of staff would be to Alstom rather than Serco.

It also says the maintenance would be at 1 site in London and 4 in Scotland. No further details on which 5 depots would be used or which of the 5 would be the principal maintenance base.

 

[LateThanNever]

Would be great to see them decide to do Scotland to Midlands and SE/SW as an extra service.

Agree very much with this! Indeed I think the Scotland - South West sleeper was the best money earner for BR of all sleepers before they had to abolish it prior to privatisation on the grounds that it wouldn't easily fit into any of the future franchises!

 

[ainsworth74]

Are these Class 73s pure diesel derivatives or do they retain their electric functionality despite the far bigger engine?

As far as I'm aware they're still fully capable of operating using third rail.

 

[theshillito]

I've never had the chance to travel on any of the sleeper services in the UK, but Serco's plans for it have me very interested. I quite like this bit:

The Club Car will be at the heart of the new trains with special themed evenings (comedy, music and literature), a TV screen and a library and games

I really like the idea of having on-train entertainment included, makes it sound like a cruise liner or railtour-style service (or perhaps more akin to Northern Rail music trains with folk musicians bouncing around a Pacer )

 

[northwichcat]

I really like the idea of having on-train entertainment included, makes it sound like a cruise liner or railtour-style service (or perhaps more akin to Northern Rail music trains with folk musicians bouncing around a Pacer )

Now Northern Rail Pacers can have all of those:
comedy - you bought a train ticket, we send something that's half bus to travel on
music - old men with guitars as you say
literature/a library- historic newspapers and leaflets. The other day I found someone's Sunday Bulletin from October 2012 on the train!
games - find a seat which isn't broken and has a properly fitted seat cover.
a TV screen - OK maybe not but you get a dot matrix screen on the Merseytravel examples

 

[edwin_m]

Now Northern Rail Pacers can have all of those:
comedy - you bought a train ticket, we send something that's half bus to travel on
music - old men with guitars as you say
literature/a library- historic newspapers and leaflets. The other day I found someone's Sunday Bulletin from October 2012 on the train!
games - find a seat which isn't broken and has a properly fitted seat cover.
a TV screen - OK maybe not but you get a dot matrix screen on the Merseytravel examples

You forgot the bouncy castle.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Would be great to see them decide to do Scotland to Midlands and SE/SW as an extra service.

They won't do this unless someone pays them to do it. The sleeper is an inherently loss-making operation and the only reason Serco want to run it is because the Scottish Government wanted to pay someone to run it (the same applies to almost every franchise). Unless someone wants to pay for a South West-Scotland sleeper it just won't happen.

 

[Clip]

I appreciate the frustration caused by uncertainty for staff.

Have you seen the information about maintenance on this site:
http://caledoniansleeper.info/new-fleet/

It states all maintenance will be subcontracted to Alstom so presumably any TUPE of staff would be to Alstom rather than Serco.

It also says the maintenance would be at 1 site in London and 4 in Scotland. No further details on which 5 depots would be used or which of the 5 would be the principal maintenance base.

I understand you are worried about your job but normal TUPE rules will apply and they will not be able to inform you of anything until they have their team go in for the transfer between them and First group. My lass has the same on the DLR right now and until they start up then there will be no news for you.

 

[Bodiddly]

With Alstom being a partner in this set up, it's looking increasingly likely that they will call the shots maintenance wise. This could mean the 8 day cyclic maintenance being removed from Inverness and being carried out in Wembley or Polmadie up until the new stock is delivered. After that, will the new stock not have a maintenance agreement plan from CAF? If so, it will be up to them where the service is carried out.
Too many possibilities to guarantee if work will stay in Inverness or not.

 

[Yew]

Hmm, I wonder if any of the current stock will be kept, I image the new berth spec would fit nicely in the Mk3's, with new vehicles for the first class ensuites, and to replace the Mk2's

I'm definitely going to have to get a trip in before the upgrades however!

 

[Boothby97]

It also says the maintenance would be at 1 site in London and 4 in Scotland. No further details on which 5 depots would be used or which of the 5 would be the principal maintenance base.

Surely they'll be,
Wembley (London)
Polmadie (Glasgow)
Fort William
Inverness
Aberdeen.

I believe this is where the maintenance is done during the daytime, with Inverness doing the heavier maintenance (exams etc). Obviously the locos will probably be maintained elsewhere, as GBRf's 73s and 92s already have there own maintenance bases.

 

[clc]

Hmm, I wonder if any of the current stock will be kept, I image the new berth spec would fit nicely in the Mk3's, with new vehicles for the first class ensuites, and to replace the Mk2's

!

Doesn't seem so. The full business case states 75 new vehicles will be built.

 

[sprinterguy]

Hmm, I wonder if any of the current stock will be kept, I image the new berth spec would fit nicely in the Mk3's, with new vehicles for the first class ensuites, and to replace the Mk2's

75 new carriages will be replacing a similar number of mark 2s and 3s (8 x 8-car rakes in service each night, plus 1 spare, plus assorted loose vehicles/the Fort William seated section), so, no they won’t be.

From the business case:

The leading bidder has proposed wholly new-build rolling stock, compared to two other bids that included proposals for refurbished rolling stock.

Sadly, this also rules out any possibility of expanding the service to re-introduced a South West to Scotland sleeper service. Though such a proposal was never part of the bid in the first place.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Something that will have to be addressed is how the new carriages would fit in Euston. At the moment an 8-car rake is 6x23m Mk3 sleepers and 2x20m Mk2 day/brake coaches. At Euston you have two 8-car rakes with a 20m locomotive at either end, so 12x23+4x20+2x20=396m long, which is to the best of my knowledge just shorter than the sleeper platforms. If you replace the 20m vehicles with 23m vehicles the rake will be too long to fit there. One possibility could be to provide a cab at one end of the 8-car rake, so that there's no longer any need to bring in a second locomotive to pull the rake out of each of the termini (which will be more than useful to help reduce the need for paths into Euston during the rebuild).

 

[sprinterguy]

It's an interesting concept, as I would have though that CAF would be angling towards a standard (23 metre) vehicle length. Plus, class 92s aren't short locos, either, and there's no platform space to spare with the "pilot" loco from Wembley already against the buffers...

 

[jimicrowbar]

Its also been looked at the heavy maintenance squad in Inverness will transfer onto Alstom. There is no reason to move a whole engineering project with skilled staff away from the present location for the sake of 3 years work until (if) the new stock arrives.