Serco for Sleeper

[SkinnyDave]

You are making the assumption that Scotland will remain in the EU.

Not seen anything to suggest otherwise especially when you look at it logically and do not buy into scare tactics and half truths!
But then again we can all assume the UK will remain in the EU cant we or indeed France these days!

 

[Bodiddly]

Serco isn't "English", it's British with very significant operations in Scotland, just like Network Rail or RBS.
And in the EU single market, it is irrelevant where a company is based.
The Scottish Government can't fix it solely to suit outfits north of the border, even if it goes independent.

Apologies for my ignorance, If truth be told Serco's roots belong to the USA.

"Serco began life in 1929 when Radio Corporation of America formed a UK subsidiary, RCA Services Limited, to support the country's growing cinema industry. In the early 1960s the company won a piece of work that was to shape its future direction - a maintenance contract for the UK Ballistic Missile Early Warning System at the Royal Air Force (RAF) base at Fylingdales."

Here is First Group's history statement;

"Twenty years ago no-one would have forecast that a small municipally-owned bus company in the north east of Scotland would go on to become the transport giant that FirstGroup is today. Now the world's largest public transport operator in private hands, First carries over 2.5 billion passengers every year."

My point still remains though. Due to the unbelievably stupid tendering process, a Scottish company has lost out to a "foreign" company for a Transport Scotland franchise. Doesn't make any sense at all!

 

[DownSouth]

Not seen anything to suggest otherwise especially when you look at it logically and do not buy into scare tactics and half truths!
But then again we can all assume the UK will remain in the EU cant we or indeed France these days!

It's fair to assume that post-secession Scotland will want to join the EU under similar "membership lite" conditions as the UK currently enjoys. Even if the UK is fine with that, it is unlikely that this will be allowed to happen by the rest of the EU though.

Spain, Italy and France would almost certainly insist on the full package being adopted and veto any attempt to make the necessary treaty changes to allow Scotland's admission without the Euro and Schengen - as a method of discouraging the Euskadi, Sardinian, Sicilian, Corsican and Breizh secessionist movements within their own borders. It's not even guaranteed that all the current member states would admit Scotland even if the bid for membership was made on the basis of accepting the full package.

The end result of membership lite getting vetoed would be Scotland being forced to choose between who they share a common currency and open borders - with the UK or with Europe.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's fair to assume that post-secession Scotland will want to join the EU under similar "membership lite" conditions as the UK currently enjoys. Even if the UK is fine with that, it is unlikely that this will be allowed to happen by the rest of the EU though.

Spain, Italy and France would almost certainly insist on the full package being adopted and veto any attempt to make the necessary treaty changes to allow Scotland's admission without the Euro and Schengen - as a method of discouraging the Euskadi, Sardinian, Sicilian, Corsican and Breizh secessionist movements within their own borders. It's not even guaranteed that all the current member states would admit Scotland even if the bid for membership was made on the basis of accepting the full package.

The end result of membership lite getting vetoed would be Scotland being forced to choose between who they share a common currency and open borders - with the UK or with Europe.

Closed borders with the UK wouldn't work for one reason. The main reason we don't have Schengen is rabies. If Scotland had Schengen, the whole of the UK may as well have Schengen, we won't be able to stop wild animals crossing the border.

 

[DownSouth]

Closed borders with the UK wouldn't work for one reason. The main reason we don't have Schengen is rabies. If Scotland had Schengen, the whole of the UK may as well have Schengen, we won't be able to stop wild animals crossing the border.

That's a good one

Everything I've read says it's actually about the UK wanting to retain full control of immigration - but post-secession Scotland may see trading with the rest of the EU as a benefit outweighing that potential negative. The UK wouldn't get a say in Scotland's foreign policy, risks of "rabid animals" crossing the border or not.

 

[LateThanNever]

Closed borders with the UK wouldn't work for one reason. The main reason we don't have Schengen is rabies. If Scotland had Schengen, the whole of the UK may as well have Schengen, we won't be able to stop wild animals crossing the border.

Is that really true? Are all the Dutch, French and Germans all rabid hoards? Or perhaps I shouldn't ask that question in case there are UKIP members on here.....

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's fair to assume that post-secession Scotland will want to join the EU under similar "membership lite" conditions as the UK currently enjoys. Even if the UK is fine with that, it is unlikely that this will be allowed to happen by the rest of the EU though.

Spain, Italy and France would almost certainly insist on the full package being adopted and veto any attempt to make the necessary treaty changes to allow Scotland's admission without the Euro and Schengen - as a method of discouraging the Euskadi, Sardinian, Sicilian, Corsican and Breizh secessionist movements within their own borders. It's not even guaranteed that all the current member states would admit Scotland even if the bid for membership was made on the basis of accepting the full package.

The end result of membership lite getting vetoed would be Scotland being forced to choose between who they share a common currency and open borders - with the UK or with Europe.

Denying iScottish entry into the EU after a Yes vote would have other, much more hazardous effects than it would bolster the case for other secessionist movements. A lot of what is being said now is primarily there to swing the vote to No rather than what would actually happen after a Yes vote. It would materially harm the European Union if it were to force out an area for a single day as the legal, economic and political ramifications would be quite severe (which is also a serious issue with any idea of the UK leaving). The most likely outcome is that after whatever series of negotiations - whether a treaty amendment or a full accession process - the independent Scottish state would be a full member the minute that full independence is realised. If the negotiations took longer than what the SNP have alloted then the date of independence would just be delayed until everything is ready.

The EU will not force Scotland to join Schengen because it would simply not be feasible to do so. The Common Travel Area is able to remain intact because the only way of entering it is through a closed number of secure border control posts at airports, seaports and around the Eurostar system. If Scotland were forced to join Schengen it would create an unsecurable land border between the two which would be a complete disaster to implement properly - all of the people waiting at Sangatte could just get transport to Scotland and then cross over at Coldstream or wherever. The only way of preventing this would be to put SchengenScotland in its own sub-Schengen that would require passport controls to get to - thereby making the whole process entirely pointless and a ridiculous waste of time and effort on the part of everyone. The only realistic option is that iScotland would remain in the same passport control area as the rUK and the Republic of Ireland - staying in the CTA together for now and if they will ever join Schengen they will join as one block.

The Euro can only be joined after meeting the five 'convergence criteria', the most important of which being the membership for at least two years of ERM II. The UK only meets the long-term interest rate requirement and with the division of assets and liabilities after a Yes vote neither iScotland or the rUK would meet any others. Even if all of the economic performance criteria could be met, there would still be a period of two years in which iScotland would have to be in ERM II. The important question is then whether the EU would have a problem with two member states sharing a currency that is not the Euro. If they have no problems with that, then the Pound Sterling can be used in iScotland. If they do have a problem with that, then the EU would be trying to get a Scots Pound created as part of the iScotland EU membership negotiations.

At that point it's then the question of how valuable that bargaining chip is on the EU side - if the iScotland negotatiors rejected this and prevented EU membership how much harm could be caused to the rest of the EU? The United Kingdom is currently the largest oil exporter within the EU - the vast majority of that would then belong to iScotland and thus iScotland would be the largest oil exporter. It is in the EU's interest for the group to have as large and as diverse an economy as possible within its regulation - playing hard ball with iScotland and it not remaining part of the EU could be very damaging.

 

[DownSouth]

Your whole "everything will be fine" theory all rests on one premise - that every single EU member will agree with you on what is best (which could just be what is best for them, not necessarily what's best for the EU) and will not veto the move, remember these votes need to be unanimous. That's rather shaky territory, relying on a unanimous vote on a controversial point.

There are probably a few members which would see that using Scotland to beat the UK into submission over Schengen as being the best thing for their own country and/or the EU as a whole.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Wonder if FGW will have an add on order for the Night Riviera?

 

[SkinnyDave]

Wonder if FGW will have an add on order for the Night Riviera?

Good shout.. Maybe a wait and see approach!
Is the sleeper high on FGW priorities over next few years though

 

[NotATrainspott]

Wonder if FGW will have an add on order for the Night Riviera?

I believe that is more than likely. Their Mk3s won't last forever and their operation is nowhere near the size of the Caledonian so it would be far less economical for them to order on their own.

 

[ainsworth74]

I suspect one of three things will happen in this regard:

1) Nothing, things continue as normal.

2) FGW tag on an order for vehicles of their own.

3) FGW acquire any Mk3s from the former Scotrail fleet that are in better material condition than their own and use them instead. They also take some others to strip for spare parts.

Of those options I suspect 1 and 3 are most likely.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I suspect one of three things will happen in this regard:

1) Nothing, things continue as normal.

2) FGW tag on an order for vehicles of their own.

3) FGW acquire any Mk3s from the former Scotrail fleet that are in better material condition than their own and use them instead. They also take some others to strip for spare parts.

Of those options I suspect 1 and 3 are most likely.

What state are their sleeper carriages in? The ScotRail ones are rather tired and they would need work to continue as-is, let alone to provide a better service.

I certainly hope that the DfT and the winning franchisee have a long-term view of the service and act accordingly. It may well be possible to refurbish the current Mk3s but that will only get another decade or so out of them at most and then what? As I said, the Riviera is far smaller than the Caledonian and if they waited until CAF had closed the production line (and likely there would be some change in regulations as well which would complicate things even more) they would be left to make a tiny order of bespoke sleeper carriages. Phase 2 HS2 timings to Scotland won't be enough to kill off the lowland properly so even if they could stretch the Mk3s' life to the 2030s they would still be rather stuck. If the DfT wants the Riviera to survive for the future it seems that the only realistic option is to just tag on just another 18 or so carriages and improve the service quality no end at the same time. Indeed, I can't see the people who use the Riviera being too enthused about the breakaway Scots getting a far superior sleeper product - time for Mebyon Kernow to shine, maybe?

 

[Monty]

Is CAF the confirmed builders of the new sleeper stock? Normally when new rolling stock is ordered there is often an open tender, did they not have an invitation to tender for this procurement?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is CAF the confirmed builders of the new sleeper stock? Normally when new rolling stock is ordered there is often an open tender, did they not have an invitation to tender for this procurement?

From the Serco press release:

The new fleet, representing an investment of over £100m, is expected to be introduced by the summer of 2018. Reflecting their aspirations for the service, this is part-funded by a £60m capital grant from Scottish Ministers. The fleet, to be built by leading rolling stock manufacturer CAF, will be leased to Serco by Beacon Rail. Significant improvements include en-suite berths, Pod Flatbeds used for the first time in rail, and a brasserie-style Club Car. Customers will also benefit from being able to book through a new website with a much broader range of fares, earlier boarding of the trains, the ability to manage their journey virtually and use of many other new service features.

Source

 

[47802]

Stagecoach and First were born of corruption - because corrupt is the only word that can be used for the Bus Privatisation process of the 1980/90s.

It's fairly obvious from my post that I'm talking about these outfits at a corporate level, the operating staff have little or no choice who they work for and of course the majority do as good a job as they can.

They might put a bit of gloss on the rail operations basically because they are FORCED to operate to different standards in the Rail sector as opposed to their bus operations where they have no standards, hence your pay and conditions are better - but again only because they are forced to, in their bus operations the staff are treated like the proverbial.

Do not be deceived they would love to reduce the standards in the Rail industry to that of the Bus industry in order to squeeze more profit out.

They are a curse on the Rail industry and the sooner they are history the better.

Totally agree

 

[WatcherZero]

Is CAF the confirmed builders of the new sleeper stock? Normally when new rolling stock is ordered there is often an open tender, did they not have an invitation to tender for this procurement?

When its Government led there has to be an open tender on EU competition grounds. However when potential TOCs are bidding for a contract for which rolling stock has not been specified they just have to include quotes from manufacturers in their bid which prove their sums and assumptions.

 

[Monty]

When its Government led there has to be an open tender on EU competition grounds. However when potential TOCs are bidding for a contract for which rolling stock has not been specified they just have to include quotes from manufacturers in their bid which prove their sums and assumptions.

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[NotATrainspott]

While looking at something entirely unrelated to this I think I have found concept designs for what refurbished Mk3 sleepers could have looked like. dg8 design are a company who have been contracted to design things for a wide variety of railway companies and there's a new portfolio piece on their site for sleeper vehicle refurbishments that wasn't there last year. Here are some pictures:

 

[reb0118]

Looks very similar to a Spanish trenhotel.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I thought it looked familiar too

 

[sprinterguy]

Even if those designs aren't necessarily pertaining to our own Caledonian sleeper, I like the idea of booths in the lounge car. I'm always quite taken with the little "corner sofa" type areas they have on the Swiss double-deck stock.

 

[NotATrainspott]

http://caledoniansleeper.info/

I don't remember coming across this before but Serco have put up a sort of placeholder website for the new service. It's not complete but it has other wee tit-bits of information that might be rather interesting. For example, under the 'Timeline' section it says:

October 2014 - New train design consultation
Jan 2015 - Website and ticket sales go live
April 2015 - Service starts:

• Enhanced on-board customer service
• New menu
• Refreshed accommodation and hotel supplies
• Platform welcome desks
• New sleep kits for passengers

Autumn 2015 - Manufacturing of new trains begins
December 2016 - Station enhancements and information totems on platforms
April 2018 - New trains in service

 

[cf111]

http://caledoniansleeper.info/

I don't remember coming across this before but Serco have put up a sort of placeholder website for the new service. It's not complete but it has other wee tit-bits of information that might be rather interesting. For example, under the 'Timeline' section it says:

Thanks for posting that, noticed this:

http://caledoniansleeper.info/partners/

Serco has chosen GBRf to provide the locomotives, drivers and guards to power the Caledonian Sleeper. GBRf are highly experienced operating trains across the UK and share our passion to deliver excellent customer service.

Drivers and locos from outside is the status quo at the moment, so fair enough, but are the train guards not ScotRail staff at the moment? I admit I've no idea if they actually are but I'd always assumed so.

 

[Pugwash]

Is there a huge amount of demand for the Seats and Pod's - it maybe me - but I could never get a decent nights sleep in one of those.

 

[marks87]

They say as well:

Earlier boarding times will be introduced where possible at key stations

Presumably that just means the 6 termini. Although Dundee (platform 1) and Perth (platform 3) both have passing loops that would allow coaches to sit in the platform early before being shunted onto the back of the train when it arrives. But the hassle and expense probably isn't worth it.

 

[Liam]

They say as well:



Presumably that just means the 6 termini. Although Dundee (platform 1) and Perth (platform 3) both have passing loops that would allow coaches to sit in the platform early before being shunted onto the back of the train when it arrives. But the hassle and expense probably isn't worth it.

The other problem at Dundee is that there are other services around the same time as the sleeper, notably the XC Aberdeen-Edinburgh 20 minutes beforehand.

 

[scotsman]

Drivers and locos from outside is the status quo at the moment, so fair enough, but are the train guards not ScotRail staff at the moment? I admit I've no idea if they actually are but I'd always assumed so.

Conductors until Edinburgh, then sleeper Train Managers from thereon heading south, reverse going north. Not sure what happens with the Glasgow Central portion to Carstairs.

 

[reb0118]

Drivers and locos from outside is the status quo at the moment, so fair enough, but are the train guards not ScotRail staff at the moment? I admit I've no idea if they actually are but I'd always assumed so.

Drivers: I believe that ScotRail provide the drivers from Fort William to Rannoch (FTW depot) & Rannoch to Westerton (GLQ Depot) - maybe the GLQ men work it to Edinburgh too?

Guards: Scotrail use day guards for the internal Scottish portions of the Highland sleeper. Dedicated Train Managers are provided for the Lowlander and also the Highlander south of Edinburgh. Only the Train Managers will be TUPEd across to the new franchise.

 

[marks87]

The other problem at Dundee is that there are other services around the same time as the sleeper, notably the XC Aberdeen-Edinburgh 20 minutes beforehand.

Which is a Voyager, so could also use the passing loop and call at platform 1(S).

But like I said, it's unlikely to happen even if it's theoretically possible.