Serco for Sleeper

[Western Lord]

This is a monstrous waste of taxpayers money. Why should we be subsidising a few dozen passengers per night when perfectly good alternatives exist? The money would be far better spent on improving services which people actually use. As for sleepers to Paris/Frankfurt etc., sleeper services are dying out all over Europe in the face of high speed rail and low cost airlines. Sleepers are a complete irrelevance in todays world.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Isn't this the same company that overcharged the government by some £68 million when they had the electronic tagging of criminals, and subsequently sent to the Serious Fraud Office...

 

[NotATrainspott]

This is a monstrous waste of taxpayers money. Why should we be subsidising a few dozen passengers per night when perfectly good alternatives exist? The money would be far better spent on improving services which people actually use. As for sleepers to Paris/Frankfurt etc., sleeper services are dying out all over Europe in the face of high speed rail and low cost airlines. Sleepers are a complete irrelevance in todays world.

The 'perfectly good alternatives' haven't killed it off yet though. If the sleepers were carrying around nothing but air every night they wouldn't have lasted but they are actually quite popular, albeit limited by the limited number of passengers that can be fitted into the two 400m platforms at Euston.

Domestic air travel is not intrinsically better than any other modes and it is used mostly out of necessity rather than preference. It is possible to get from the Central Belt to London for a 9am start by air but it does require waking up at an ungodly hour for the majority of people and is a far more uncomfortable experience than sleeping on a train.

Only once high speed rail kicks in (and most likely only when HS2 Phase 3 appears) will there be any suitable competition to the sleeper for business travellers. At that point the Central Belt will be in the same position as Manchester and Leeds are today where rail is the obvious choice for getting into London for that time in the morning.

That doesn't even take into account the highland sleeper, which will probably survive post-HS2 (even with classic-compatibles up to Aberdeen/Inverness on partly-upgraded/new track). The Serco bid is clearly competing on quality rather than pure speed for this service, with far superior daytime provision (ideal for an evening/early morning spent going through the Scottish countryside) making the service more like a cruise train. Only business travellers are particularly time-sensitive - leisure travellers will prefer to have a slower but more pleasant journey.

 

[Western Lord]

The 'perfectly good alternatives' haven't killed it off yet though. If the sleepers were carrying around nothing but air every night they wouldn't have lasted but they are actually quite popular, albeit limited by the limited number of passengers that can be fitted into the two 400m platforms at Euston.

Domestic air travel is not intrinsically better than any other modes and it is used mostly out of necessity rather than preference. It is possible to get from the Central Belt to London for a 9am start by air but it does require waking up at an ungodly hour for the majority of people and is a far more uncomfortable experience than sleeping on a train.

Only once high speed rail kicks in (and most likely only when HS2 Phase 3 appears) will there be any suitable competition to the sleeper for business travellers. At that point the Central Belt will be in the same position as Manchester and Leeds are today where rail is the obvious choice for getting into London for that time in the morning.

That doesn't even take into account the highland sleeper, which will probably survive post-HS2 (even with classic-compatibles up to Aberdeen/Inverness on partly-upgraded/new track). The Serco bid is clearly competing on quality rather than pure speed for this service, with far superior daytime provision (ideal for an evening/early morning spent going through the Scottish countryside) making the service more like a cruise train. Only business travellers are particularly time-sensitive - leisure travellers will prefer to have a slower but more pleasant journey.

This service has been killed off by the alternatives. It is only kept going with huge subsidies for political reasons.

 

[aleph_0]

This is a monstrous waste of taxpayers money. Why should we be subsidising a few dozen passengers per night when perfectly good alternatives exist? The money would be far better spent on improving services which people actually use. As for sleepers to Paris/Frankfurt etc., sleeper services are dying out all over Europe in the face of high speed rail and low cost airlines. Sleepers are a complete irrelevance in todays world.

Depends what you mean by perfectly good. Sleepers use what would otherwise be dead time - I can, and have, spent the evening in Edinburgh, go to sleep, and wake up the next morning in London. All the other alternatives usually compromise on something (sleep, waking up time, leaving earlier). The highland sleepers provide a fantastic direct service.

By the time HS2 is actually in service, maybe the lowlands will be under threat. But that doesn't sound like a good argument for non-investment now, but just an acceptance that the stock might need to serve another purpose post-HS2 (less intensive working to prolong life, new routes, take a different route via. places with less of a journey time improvement via. HS2). There could also be pressures the other way, making air travel more expensive, and so rail cheaper.
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This service has been killed off by the alternatives. It is only kept going with huge subsidies for political reasons.

Citation Needed? I'm not arguing it's not subsidised, but you're claiming that the somehow the economics have got worse - that is demand has decreased, and/or subsidy increased?

Whilst the burden of proof lies with you for such a claim, I offer this as a demonstration of demand existing:
http://uk.megabus.com/megabus-sleeper.aspx

 

[BRX]

We don't yet know what will happen as the cost of aviation fuel rises. Things could change over the next few decades that will affect the cost of flying on routes that can be covered by an overnight train. And there's no reason why overnight trains can't also be HS thus extending the mileage that can be covered. I don't think we can write off the future of night trains yet.

 

[gordonthemoron]

yep, by running the sleeper on HS2, they could be extended to Wick/Kyle of Lochalsh/Bergen

 

[cf111]

yep, by running the sleeper on HS2, they could be extended to Wick/Kyle of Lochalsh/Bergen

I wouldn't wish waking up in Wick on my worst enemy .

 

[gordonthemoron]

Kyle's not much better and pax would get rather wet on the way to Bergen

 

[infobleep]

Only business travellers are particularly time-sensitive - leisure travellers will prefer to have a slower but more pleasant journey.

Spot on. As a commuter and leisure users I usually only want my train services to be fast and on time when travelling to and from work. For leisure I sometimes actually want them to be delayed so I can enjoy my time on the train and I wouldn't be bothered if I wasn't compensated for it either.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[gordonthemoron]

I wouldn't wish waking up in Wick on my worst enemy .

Actually, they could run to Thurso and do a combined sleeper/nuclear waste train

 

[cf111]

Actually, they could run to Thurso and do a combined sleeper/nuclear waste train

37s at each end I should hope?

 

[Clip]

Isn't this the same company that overcharged the government by some £68 million when they had the electronic tagging of criminals, and subsequently sent to the Serious Fraud Office...

They are. But they are also the same company who seem to have got the highest PPM with northern for a while and also seem to run the DLR at 99% for both reliability and departures.

Along with doing rather well at running the Dubai metro and the rails in Oz as has been alluded to earlier in this thread.

Just because on part of a corporation fails due to **** poor management and behaviour doesnt mean that you should tar it all with the same brush. The facts are that they run 2 good railways in this country and with the right management and backing from head office there is no reason why they cannot do the same with the sleeper

 

[Steve childs]

Hello clip, do you work for serco now?
I burned anyone's lug today that would listen but no one knows anything about what is happening about maintenance. ( apart from what's in the brochure) Its been said that it will get sub contracted to our area as well as Alstom as the situation now. Maybe Alstom may take some contract work in Inverness TMD.

 

[jopsuk]

I hope things work out for you- the uncertainty and lack of information is not good.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know if the name Caledonian Sleeper will remain. I suspect not. Copyrights permitting, I would love to see the return of the name "The Nights Scotsman".

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Clip]

Hello clip, do you work for serco now?
I burned anyone's lug today that would listen but no one knows anything about what is happening about maintenance. ( apart from what's in the brochure) Its been said that it will get sub contracted to our area as well as Alstom as the situation now. Maybe Alstom may take some contract work in Inverness TMD.

Steve,

No I don't, me lass does though and it hasn't been communicated to her lot on the dlr yet either as she was shocked when I told her. And with that I can only tell you to stop worrying at the moment. Let the big wigs shake off their hangovers for a job well done and it will all come out sooner or later.

Seriously its going to do you no good worrying about any speculation or rumours you here. Christ the thread on first winning tsgn turned out right didn't it
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Plus they should call it 'The Supertennants expreess '

 

[Altnabreac]

I don't know if the name Caledonian Sleeper will remain. I suspect not. Copyrights permitting, I would love to see the return of the name "The Nights Scotsman".

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

ITT says Transport Scotland own the rights to "Caledonian Sleeper" brand and bidders are able to use it but not compelled to.

If a new brand is developed, rights for it must be given to TS in full so using an existing trademark under license would not be possible.

 

[merlodlliw]

Whilst the burden of proof lies with you for such a claim, I offer this as a demonstration of demand existing:
http://uk.megabus.com/megabus-sleeper.aspx

[/QUOTE]

I recall Stagecoach running overnight rail carriages from Glasgow to London a few years ago, forget how long it lasted, this was in BR days.
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I don't know if the name Caledonian Sleeper will remain. I suspect not. Copyrights permitting, I would love to see the return of the name "The Nights Scotsman".

I travelled on the Royal Highlander in the late 60s,another good name.

 

[edwin_m]

I am puzzled by the obsession with en-suite. Is there really a demand for this?

Some business travellers will value the concept of combining the journey with the hotel and arriving fresh for an early start at destination without either having to get a flight at the crack of dawn or spend a big slice of the previous day travelling. However to attract this market the sleeper needs to provide facilities roughly comparable to a hotel, which means single occupancy and en-suite as an absolute minimum. It also needs to pretty much guarantee a good night's sleep, which is probably the biggest challenge - if you're kept awake the whole night by rough riding or drunks wandering the corridor then you'd have been better off getting half a night's sleep before the early alarm for the flight.

 

[34D]

Hello clip, do you work for serco now?
I burned anyone's lug today that would listen but no one knows anything about what is happening about maintenance. ( apart from what's in the brochure) Its been said that it will get sub contracted to our area as well as Alstom as the situation now. Maybe Alstom may take some contract work in Inverness TMD.

Steve, do you just maintain the sleeper at present, or do you look after Scotrail DMU's aswell?

 

[route:oxford]

Some business travellers will value the concept of combining the journey with the hotel and arriving fresh for an early start at destination without either having to get a flight at the crack of dawn or spend a big slice of the previous day travelling. However to attract this market the sleeper needs to provide facilities roughly comparable to a hotel, which means single occupancy and en-suite as an absolute minimum. It also needs to pretty much guarantee a good night's sleep, which is probably the biggest challenge - if you're kept awake the whole night by rough riding or drunks wandering the corridor then you'd have been better off getting half a night's sleep before the early alarm for the flight.

Earlier than the crack of dawn heading south.

An independent Scotland is likely to be one hour behind London if rUK switch to GMT+1 in winter and GMT+2 in summer.

A 6.40am flight from EDI or GLA won't get you to Heathrow or City Airport until after 9am.

 

[gordonthemoron]

How about the Royal/Night Buckie?

 

[kylemore]

They are. But they are also the same company who seem to have got the highest PPM with northern for a while and also seem to run the DLR at 99% for both reliability and departures.

Along with doing rather well at running the Dubai metro and the rails in Oz as has been alluded to earlier in this thread.

Just because on part of a corporation fails due to **** poor management and behaviour doesnt mean that you should tar it all with the same brush. The facts are that they run 2 good railways in this country and with the right management and backing from head office there is no reason why they cannot do the same with the sleeper

There is no choice now but Sharks - the only choice now is between Sharks who might put a bit of effort in, in return for getting their mitts on taxpayer's money, or those Sharks such as Stagecoach or First that for the most part are simply cynical, money grubbing off the taxpayer type operations.
Whether Serco turn out to be the former or latter in this particular instance we've yet to see - I'm just glad none of the above mentioned crappy low grade bus operations got it!

 

[jopsuk]

How about the Royal/Night Buckie?

Pftt, Beeching got rid of the Moray Coast line!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Pftt, Beeching got rid of the Moray Coast line!

I was referring to Buckfast

 

[St Rollox]

There is no choice now but Sharks - the only choice now is between Sharks who might put a bit of effort in, in return for getting their mitts on taxpayer's money, or those Sharks such as Stagecoach or First that for the most part are simply cynical, money grubbing off the taxpayer type operations.
Whether Serco turn out to be the former or latter in this particular instance we've yet to see - I'm just glad none of the above mentioned crappy low grade bus operations got it!

Here here.

 

[Olaf]

There is no choice now but Sharks - the only choice now is between Sharks who might put a bit of effort in, in return for getting their mitts on taxpayer's money, or those Sharks such as Stagecoach or First that for the most part are simply cynical, money grubbing off the taxpayer type operations.
Whether Serco turn out to be the former or latter in this particular instance we've yet to see - I'm just glad none of the above mentioned crappy low grade bus operations got it!

Well the alternative was public sector leeches, but most commuters have long had enough of them.

 

[adrock1976]

I was referring to Buckfast

It would need to make a scheduled stop at Coatbridge Central as I read somewhere a while ago that Coatbridge has the rather dubious honour of having the highest amount of sales of Buckfast.

In peace

Adam
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How about the Royal/Night Buckie?

Pftt, Beeching got rid of the Moray Coast line!

I was referring to Buckfast

It would need to make a scheduled stop at Coatbridge Central as I read somewhere a while ago that Coatbridge has the rather dubious honour of having the highest amount of sales of Buckfast.

In peace

Adam

 

[Sadsmileyface]

There is no choice now but Sharks - the only choice now is between Sharks who might put a bit of effort in, in return for getting their mitts on taxpayer's money, or those Sharks such as Stagecoach or First that for the most part are simply cynical, money grubbing off the taxpayer type operations.
Whether Serco turn out to be the former or latter in this particular instance we've yet to see - I'm just glad none of the above mentioned crappy low grade bus operations got it!

"Low grade bus operations"

You understand that FirstBus don't operate trains? That for the most part, all the First operations are extremely separate in terms of not only function but geography? That the majority of the staff running these franchises are the same no matter which logo is on the door? That the staff are actually trying to run a decent railway rather than quaffing champagne and truffles while reviewing their "massive shareholder dividends"?

Because otherwise, that sounds like a very cynical, crappy low grade observation.