Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[najaB]

So do Mk2/3 slam doors on the sleepers so what is new?

The step up to Mk2/3 doors is slightly higher than 158's and, in any case, they aren't powered doors so if there was a clearance issue it is unlikely to end up damaging either platform edge or door.

 

[marks87]

I stand corrected. I thought I had seen the 158 in Central.
I still insist that in 2017 the 156 is not fit for purpose for longer journeys. The 158 was designed for these longer trips.

158s are only cleared via Dumfries for ECS moves only.

That suggests, like the WHL, there's a problem with plug doors at certain platforms.

 

[route101]

I stand corrected. I thought I had seen the 158 in Central.
I still insist that in 2017 the 156 is not fit for purpose for longer journeys. The 158 was designed for these longer trips.

Would be a Ednburgh via Shotts service or if a while back a whifflet

 

[47271]

There were quite a lot of 158s at Central last summer when Queen Street was shut, maybe you saw it then.

 

[Mordac]

Post 2019 routes for remaining Scotrail DMUs for anyone wondering:

Class 170
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Class 158
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh/Thurso/Wick
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Class 156
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street to Oban/Fort William/Mallaig
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride
Glasgow Central to Barrhead/Kilmarnock/Stranraer/Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle

*running through the stated principle station

Is Aberdeen to Inverness going to be HSTs? I hadn't realized that!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Re the suitability or not of 156s and their future deployment on the WHL, for what its worth I agree with comments upthread but have you contacted your local MP/MSP for the purposes of lobbying and a deffinitive answer on this issue? Might be worth doing.

 

[Clansman]

Are these allocations definite? Users of the WHL will be furious if they are going to be stuck with drafty, non air-conditioned, totally unsuitable stock, 'refurbished' or not. The commitment in the franchise was for modernised 158s with seats matching windows etc. Nothing less.
And I think Dumfries also currently has 158s. They won't be happy at the downgrade to inferior, and slower, stock. The 156 should not be used on any journey over 30 minutes.

Pretty much definite. The 158s have come under scrutiny recently for their performance - placing doubt on their operational ability on the WHL. Posted on Yammer.

But with most of the services into Queen St being 385s and HSTs, the Anniesland service would be a microfleet of something anyway.

No, because the local service increase from Arbroath/Dundee/Perth as well as the WHL will supply the DMUs necessary - hence why Anniesland has a broad range of fleets for such a short journey. Given 170s will work the majority of the Arbroath/Dundee/Perth services, 158s will be the minority fleet into Glasgow Queen Street post 2019.

I stand corrected. I thought I had seen the 158 in Central.
I still insist that in 2017 the 156 is not fit for purpose for longer journeys. The 158 was designed for these longer trips.

They still work Glasgow Central to Edinburgh services along with the 156s - or it might've been last year when 170s/158s worked to Central when Queen Street High Level was shut.

Is Aberdeen to Inverness going to be HSTs? I hadn't realized that!

Yup. More Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen services are being extended through to Inverness also - as 1 or 2 services currently do.

 

[InOban]

I quite agree that as presently configured the 158's performance and reliability are inadequate. That can be sorted by replacing components. This could range all the way up to new engines and transmissions, never mind new aircon, doors etc. They can be made reliable, as Salisbury has shown. This doesn't affect my opinion that the 156 is not and cannot be made an acceptable vehicle for long distance travel in 2018.
As has been suggested it is time I contacted my MSPs.

BTW, why are they seemed OK on the Far north lines?

 

[najaB]

BTW, why are they seemed OK on the Far north lines?

What, 158s? They seem perfectly fine to me.

 

[InOban]

If they're ok in the far north, why not on the WHL?

 

[Mag_seven]

Getting back on topic, is there an energisation date yet? (for Glasgow Queen St High level to Newbridge?)

 

[najaB]

If they're ok in the far north, why not on the WHL?

As far as I know, 158s aren't operating on the WHL due to clearance issues in a few places.

 

[InOban]

First it's performance issues, now it's clearance issues, I assume with the doors. I have contacts....But it may take some time.

 

[najaB]

First it's performance issues, now it's clearance issues, I assume with the doors.

I don't think there's ever been any official issue with performance, that was just posts on this forum. However, they aren't cleared for the WHL - it's in the sectional appendix if you care to take a look.

 

[Altnabreac]

First it's performance issues, now it's clearance issues, I assume with the doors. I have contacts....But it may take some time.

The reason the 158s haven't previously operated the WHL is due to the platform clearance issues. The plan was to fix these issues to allow them to operate WHL services later in this franchise.

The bothy talk in this thread ( albeit convincingly real sounding bothy talk) is that a decision has been made not to use 158s because of concerns over their performance on persistent steep sections, I suspect it will be the climb up to Corrour that is concerning people rather than short steep bits like Carmuirs or Glenfinnan.

Lobbying may be worthwhile but if the message from Scotrail is 158s are unsuitable then I'd suggest your efforts will be better placed in lobbying for improvements to the 156s (which personally I think would be ok with a decent refurb programme).

 

[Liam]

Are these allocations definite? Users of the WHL will be furious if they are going to be stuck with drafty, non air-conditioned, totally unsuitable stock, 'refurbished' or not. The commitment in the franchise was for modernised 158s with seats matching windows etc. Nothing less.
And I think Dumfries also currently has 158s. They won't be happy at the downgrade to inferior, and slower, stock. The 156 should not be used on any journey over 30 minutes.

Dumfries is 156 only and personally, I don't mind them at all. Yes, they could be doing with a refresh, but I still prefer them to the 170's. I would quite like to see automatic vestibule doors fitted, though.

 

[najaB]

Dumfries is 156 only...

Just checked the sectional appendix and 158s are only cleared for ECS movements on the GSW route.

 

[marks87]

The bothy talk in this thread ( albeit convincingly real sounding bothy talk) is that a decision has been made not to use 158s because of concerns over their performance on persistent steep sections, I suspect it will be the climb up to Corrour that is concerning people rather than short steep bits like Carmuirs or Glenfinnan.

Is the climb to Corrour any worse than the climbs to Slochd and Drumochter on the HML?

 

[InOban]

Sorry, I don't have all the knowledge. What's the sectional appendix?

And of course it is possible that it's not cleared because no-one has ever tested it.

I've never managed to find out what structure between Crianlarich and Oban prevents 25 ton axle loads using this section.

 

[gsnedders]

The reason the 158s haven't previously operated the WHL is due to the platform clearance issues. The plan was to fix these issues to allow them to operate WHL services later in this franchise.

To ask a different question, though I'm fairly certain I know the answer (that it isn't public), what detail does the franchise agreement go into? Requiring 158s? Requiring 'scenic stock' (defined how?)? What are the penalties going to be for not delivering that?

 

[signallerscot]

The current ScotRail franchise agreement and all the amendments to it are published online by Transport Scotland, so you can read it for yourself..

https://www.transport.gov.scot/public-transport/rail/public-register/

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Getting back on topic, is there an energisation date yet? (for Glasgow Queen St High level to Newbridge?)

9th April, as reported earlier on this thread (posts 1213 and 1246)

 

[Altnabreac]

To ask a different question, though I'm fairly certain I know the answer (that it isn't public), what detail does the franchise agreement go into? Requiring 158s? Requiring 'scenic stock' (defined how?)? What are the penalties going to be for not delivering that?

Requires scenic stock see the franchise agreement for how that is defined. I would expect the 156s could be refurbed to a standard that allows them to meet the WHL franchise spec. (Indeed I think most people thought this would be what was proposed until the Abellio franchise suggested using 158s.)

I'd still like to see a proper new build order for Swiss style scenic stock with full height windows, catering options etc. Sure Stadler would bid for a small order of that sort. However I can see logic of not going down that route now as we need to see how the electrification rollout pans out over the next ten years and then the scenic DMUs could cover all the Scottish lines that will be remaining non electrified for the foreseeable future.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The bothy talk in this thread ( albeit convincingly real sounding bothy talk) is that a decision has been made not to use 158s because of concerns over their performance on persistent steep sections, I suspect it will be the climb up to Corrour that is concerning people rather than short steep bits like Carmuirs or Glenfinnan.

And yet 158s work intensively over the Pennines, including the "long drag" up to Ais Gill on the S&C.
Preston-Leeds and Sheffield-Manchester are also not exactly flat.

 

[92002]

First it's performance issues, now it's clearance issues, I assume with the doors. I have contacts....But it may take some time.

The whole problem with 156s on the Scottish services is they have not been updated since they were new. Many years ago. It's not an Abellio problem but one they have inherited from the many previous owners who didn't want to spend money on them.

Having been on a refurbished 156 recently, they have cured the rattling windows, fitted new seats for the longer journeys and updated the toilets to meet the Disability standards.

The Far North Line gets 158s since that's what is based at Inverness. However their reliability is not wonderful either. The real 158 reliability problems are with the Edinburgh based ones.

So really doubtful that if cleared to work the WHL that 158s would be any better.

As for totally new units being sourced for the WHL all that can be said there is Dream on. The financial sums for such would never add up given the amount of money made on the line.

 

[Carntyne]

The 158 fleet is going to go on the WHL. Just because it's not in the SA at the moment doesn't mean it's forever forbidden. It can be a paperwork exercise, clearance works or a combination of both.

 

[najaB]

The 158 fleet is going to go on the WHL. Just because it's not in the SA at the moment doesn't mean it's forever forbidden. It can be a paperwork exercise, clearance works or a combination of both.

I don't think anyone believes the SA is cast in stone. My understanding is that there are genuine clearance issues that need to be resolved - doors hitting structure - though I don't know exactly where they are.

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry, I don't have all the knowledge. What's the sectional appendix?

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...anies/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/

The National Electronic Sectional Appendix (NESA) contains detailed information useful to operators about network capability, as well as a considerable amount of other data

You probably won't get access to NESA without a work email at a company in the rail industry, but there are PDFs lower down that you can access freely. They are huge documents and I think still not searchable. The tables of what rolling stock is cleared on what lines are near the end.

 

[snowball]

Press release

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/a71-in-west-calder-to-re-open-early/

Network Rail has announced that the A71 in West Calder will re-open with temporary traffic lights in place more than two weeks ahead of schedule following the reconstruction of the bridge over the railway in the town.

The structure, demolished over the weekend of 7/8 January, was reconstructed as part of a challenging 16 week programme which has delivered the re-opening of the road, 15 days earlier than planned on 10th April 2017. The team will then work to complete the bridge, remove temporary traffic light controls and fully re-open the A71 by 16 May.

Though the demolition of the bridge was required due to the age and condition of the structure, the project itself was part of wider work on the Shotts line ahead of the electrification of the route by 2019 as part of a Scottish Government investment which is being delivered by Network Rail Infrastructure Projects.

The bridge reconstruction involved 37 lifts using a 750 tonne crane – the heaviest of which was the 67 tonne parapet unit as well as the installation of 24 x 18m long piles to support the construction of the north abutment of the bridge. The project also used 15000 tonnes of material to create the compound and access road and 400 cubic metres of concrete to construct the new bridge.

A stronger bridge deck has been put in place and higher parapets (side walls) have been installed to comply with safety legislation on structures over an electrified railway.

Mak Kader, Network Rail’s programme manager for the Shotts Line Electrification, said: “We are delighted that the work in West Calder has gone so well.

“Our primary concern throughout this time has been the impact of the road closure on the local community and it is very welcome news that the road is re-opening ahead of schedule.

“Given the location, this project was always a huge logistical challenge but with the scale and complexity of what has been delivered it is credit to the Network Rail project team and contractor Bam Nuttall for expediting works. While the road re-opening early is excellent news, we will maintain our focus until work is complete and the road fully re-opens

“We understand the impact that the unavoidable closure of the A71 had for road users, businesses in the town, and those communities adjacent to the diversion route, however, this has proven to be the best way to minimise disruption for the community.

“We thank everyone inconvenienced by this work for their patience and cooperation.”

Network Rail worked with West Lothian Council to put in place an appropriate ‘all vehicle’ diversion and delivered work at a number of locations to enhance roads in the area ahead of the increased volumes of traffic expected during the A71 closure.

In addition to the diversion route, other safety measures such as speed limits, parking restrictions and temporary traffic lights were put in place to help to maintain the flow of traffic from the diverted A71 route.

 

[Geogregor]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...anies/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/



You probably won't get access to NESA without a work email at a company in the rail industry, but there are PDFs lower down that you can access freely. They are huge documents and I think still not searchable. The tables of what rolling stock is cleared on what lines are near the end.

They are available on the National Rail website:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-commercial-partners/information-operating-companies/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/