Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[Clansman]

Concourse Level Plan

Only a few extra metres would be possible, but not worthwhile as it wouldn't be enough for 5 carriages. The stairs down to the low level station are in the way of any further extensions.

Cheers for the link, not seen the official plans until now.

I guess in an ideal world you could shut Dundas Street and demolish the adjacent buildings to the main shed at Queen Street which make up the staff bothy, ticket halls, and low-level entrances; and run platform 1 all the way through to the concourse, with a newly built concourse and stairs for the low level platforms and subway where Dundas Street currently is. But obviously if this was possible then that would be happening.

Platform 1's just a major pain in the backside in terms of any future platform plans for Queen Street when it comes to hunting down capacity.

 

[adrock1976]

Fgwrich: the steepest climb on the WHL is surely Queen Street tunnel. 1 in 50? So the hill- climbing performance of the 156/157/170 can be judged by their speed at the top.

The tunnel you refer to is not on the West Highlind Line/Railway (as that starts at Craigendoran Junction), but is indeed on the Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway.

The Glasgow, Dumbarton, & Helensburgh Railway diverged at Cowlairs, and was a part of the E&GR, both which eventually became part of the North British Railway.

 

[gsnedders]

Platform 1's just a major pain in the backside in terms of any future platform plans for Queen Street when it comes to hunting down capacity.

I thought the bigger problem with high level was the fact there's only two lines out of the place?

 

[Altnabreac]

Cheers for the link, not seen the official plans until now.

I guess in an ideal world you could shut Dundas Street and demolish the adjacent buildings to the main shed at Queen Street which make up the staff bothy, ticket halls, and low-level entrances; and run platform 1 all the way through to the concourse, with a newly built concourse and stairs for the low level platforms and subway where Dundas Street currently is. But obviously if this was possible then that would be happening.

Platform 1's just a major pain in the backside in terms of any future platform plans for Queen Street when it comes to hunting down capacity.

Maryhill / Anniesland services aren't likely to need to be any longer than 4 cars in the near future so Platform 1 being short isn't a huge issue. One of the justifications for electrifying Maryhill line in CP6 is because of the way the line is worked by various different units from other routes as part of varied diagrams. I suspect this is why they want Platform 1 to be available for four car length, so any 3 or 4 car unit from Stirling or Cumbernauld can be routed into Platform 1 and then sent out to Anniesland.

 

[InOban]

The tunnel you refer to is not on the West Highlind Line/Railway (as that starts at Craigendoran Junction), but is indeed on the Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway.

The Glasgow, Dumbarton, & Helensburgh Railway diverged at Cowlairs, and was a part of the E&GR, both which eventually became part of the North British Railway.

Of course the WHL starts at Craigendoran, although the first WHL-style station is Dumbarton East. And the Oban branch isn't part of the WHL at all, being the surviving remnant of the C&O. But that is nothing to do with the point I was making. QS tunnel is steepest gradient dmus meet on the journey, so it can be used to judge performance.

Am I right in thinking that it is the steepest gradient anywhere in Scotland?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Of course the WHL starts at Craigendoran, although the first WHL-style station is Dumbarton East. And the Oban branch isn't part of the WHL at all, being the surviving remnant of the C&O. But that is nothing to do with the point I was making. QS tunnel is steepest gradient dmus meet on the journey, so it can be used to judge performance.

Am I right in thinking that it is the steepest gradient anywhere in Scotland?

I thought I remembered that there was a short length of very steep gradient at Craigendoran Junction, but a look at the gradient profile shows that it is not quite as I remembered it.

 

[InOban]

Thanks for that. The gradient out of QS is 1/42-44, I believe.

 

[Altnabreac]

Here is a list of bridges from a previous FOI with my notes about which ones have been tackled so far:

285/009 NEWARTHILL ROAD NS7755758855 Parapet work only. Complete? https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/781855665430077440
285/011 WHITTAGREEN NS7833758672 Parapet work only. Complete?
285/012 CLAY ROAD NS7876258501 ???
285/013 NEWARTHILL NS7910158466 Parapet work only. Complete?
285/017 BIGGAR RD "CLELAND STATION" NS8017358400 Replaced https://www.networkrailmediacentre....e-re-opens-on-time-following-gbp-1-3m-upgrade
285/029 OVERBRIDGE NS8228158114 ???
285/033 KEEPER ROAD FORMER O/B NS8282957931 Replaced
285/044 OVERBRIDGE NS8474759033 Replaced
285/046 OVERBRIDGE NS8493659113 Parapet work only. Complete? https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/718776518021918720
285/049 OVERBRIDGE NS8581059318 ???
285/059 STATION RD NS8743759856 Being replaced - work underway https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/shotts-railway-bridge-demolished
285/063 LAUNDRY NS8803560302 Replaced https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/upgraded-shotts-bridge-re-opens
285/069 STRARRYSHAW NS8983961281 Replaced https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/723089486452662273
285/075 OVERBRIDGE NS9184660150 Replaced https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/738039730089144320
285/087 OVERBRIDGE NS9388759805 ???
285/089 OVERBRIDGE NS9415159888 Being replaced - work underway https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/845226316597268481
285/100 OVERBRIDGE NS9557760584 Replaced https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/breich-bridge-back-after-build
285/102 BREICH TERRACE NS9644361000 Replaced
285/112 MEADOWHEAD NS9903362070 Replaced https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/723549065682800641
285/121 HAPPY LAND NT0140063142 Replaced - see Streetview change from 2009 to 2016 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.8...4!1skfn40GG03ONjfdQFZvKJHw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
285/125 WEST CALDER NT0211263367 Being replaced - work underway https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/west-calder-railway-bridge-demolished
285/126 PARKHEAD NT0244063580 Being replaced by separate project https://www.westlothian.gov.uk/new-wchs
285/131 BLACKMIRES NT0395664132 Replaced https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/723088764982054912
285/132 BEECHWOOD NT0424164224 Replaced https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/livingston-bridge-re-opens-cleared-for-electrification
285/134 NEWPARK NT0490964511 Replaced https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/677836913353564160

The Shotts line twitter feed in September 2016 posted:

We're well into bridge clearance with 12 of 19 done.

https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/775357562589962300

Since then Biggar Road Cleland has reopened so I think there are now 13 out of 19 structures complete with 3 underway. NR also say there should be another 10 bridges needing parapet works.

I'm not sure whether they are counting Parkhead in their replacements required list as it is being replaced separately as part of a new school development.

Fauldhouse Station footbridge - Parapet work only https://twitter.com/shottslineelec/status/694084867433308160

There are also station footbridges at Breich, Addiewell, West Calder, Hartwood, Cleland. Presumably parapet works at some/all of these are included in the 10 bridges requiring parapet works.

There is one more overbridge at Oakbank Park in Livingston that doesn't appear on this list either. Fairly modern so suspect not much work is required.

 

[Railsigns]

Of course the WHL starts at Craigendoran, although the first WHL-style station is Dumbarton East. And the Oban branch isn't part of the WHL at all, being the surviving remnant of the C&O. But that is nothing to do with the point I was making. QS tunnel is steepest gradient dmus meet on the journey, so it can be used to judge performance.

Am I right in thinking that it is the steepest gradient anywhere in Scotland?

The official gradient chart shows a continuous 1 in 45 up Cowlairs incline. There are two short stretches of 1 in 40 on the Mallaig line. I'm not sure if they're the steepest in Scotland though.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The official gradient chart shows a continuous 1 in 45 up Cowlairs incline. There are two short stretches of 1 in 40 on the Mallaig line. I'm not sure if they're the steepest in Scotland though.

Ft William -Glenfinnan and Glenfinnan - Mallaig if anyone is interested.

Thanks are due to Dougie fae Plockton on the scot-rail message board for the FOI request, though I have seen other sources. I remember looking at a lot of the plans and other bumph for the WHL at Buchanan House in 1968 or 1969 though I fear some of it might have been lost in late BR and Railtrack days.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Cheers for the link, not seen the official plans until now.

I guess in an ideal world you could shut Dundas Street and demolish the adjacent buildings to the main shed at Queen Street which make up the staff bothy, ticket halls, and low-level entrances; and run platform 1 all the way through to the concourse, with a newly built concourse and stairs for the low level platforms and subway where Dundas Street currently is. But obviously if this was possible then that would be happening.

Platform 1's just a major pain in the backside in terms of any future platform plans for Queen Street when it comes to hunting down capacity.

Providing another full-length platform is possible without this. The 'cloudy' area on the plan is the passive provision space for another platform on the eastern side.

Effectively nothing but the original Victorian trainshed is going to remain in the new station. The access arrangements to the low level won't be changed too much (annoyingly) but it'll still be pretty much unrecognisable throughout the high level station.

 

[Altnabreac]

A lot of bla in this story about Scotrail governance generally, I frankly can't be bothered with most of the hot air expended on the subject, but see this paragraph within:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/..._chief_over_powers_and_delays__says_minister/

And that TAWS order is now signed so the rest of the Queen St circulation work can commence:

Queen Street Redevelopment Gets Ministers’ Go Ahead

The Transport and Works Scotland (TAWS) Order triggers the latest phase of this ambitious improvement programme which, on completion, will give one of Scotland’s key rail hubs a major facelift.

The main provisions of the Order enable Network Rail to undertake enhancements to accommodate longer trains and the future growth in passenger numbers. On completion the new station will deliver:

• a fully accessible, modern, transport facility;
• improved access to an expanded concourse;
• enhanced aesthetics and passenger facilities in the station;
• increased capacity, walking and circulation space and longer platforms; and
• a station that better serves the needs of passengers and the city.

Humza Yousaf, Minister for Transport and the Islands said:

“The Scottish Government is delivering the most ambitious programme of rail investment ever seen in Scotland, committing over £5 billion across the current funding period. Approval of this TAWS Order allows Network Rail to undertake significant enhancements to Glasgow Queen Street Station.

“This continued investment in our key rail hubs will not only accommodate longer trains and the future growth in passenger numbers, it will also improve the overall service experience. Coupled with new longer, faster, greener Class 385 trains coming later this year and a full fleet refurbishment, we are doing what we can now to deliver a Scottish rail industry for the future, one which encourages even more people opt to get out their cars and onto trains.”

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news-item/58dcd6fef6e9230c54d13023

 

[PaxVobiscum]

And that TAWS order is now signed so the rest of the Queen St circulation work can commence:
https://www.transport.gov.scot/news-item/58dcd6fef6e9230c54d13023

Now also reported at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39456300 with much the same wording.

 

[InOban]

Great news. The new building will be a striking asset to the city centre.

 

[deltic08]

Nah, They'll go to Fife/Borders.

and Northern England.

 

[Clansman]

Post 2019 routes for remaining Scotrail diesel services for anyone wondering:

Class 170
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Class 158
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh/Thurso/Wick
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Class 156
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street to Oban/Fort William/Mallaig
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride
Glasgow Central to Barrhead/Kilmarnock/Stranraer/Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle

HST
Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen**
Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness
Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness
Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen**
Aberdeen to Inverness

*running through the stated principle station
**some will be extended to Inverness

 

[Clansman]

Providing another full-length platform is possible without this. The 'cloudy' area on the plan is the passive provision space for another platform on the eastern side.

Effectively nothing but the original Victorian trainshed is going to remain in the new station. The access arrangements to the low level won't be changed too much (annoyingly) but it'll still be pretty much unrecognisable throughout the high level station.

The low level entrance could easily be relocated to allow the extension of platform 1 as well as more space in general. Aren't they best to just build the additional 2 platforms in the "cloudy" area so that Queen Street will be able to sustain future demand, as well as ensuring that there won't be any major works for decades after.

And that TAWS order is now signed so the rest of the Queen St circulation work can commence:
https://www.transport.gov.scot/news-item/58dcd6fef6e9230c54d13023

Great news. The visuals look right smart so they do - it's about time Queen Street was a true representation of the gateway to the North.

 

[deltic08]

Why do politicians always say that new trains are faster than the old trains. Is this deliberate or just through ignorance. Are 385s really faster than 170s? I thought both are 100mph top speed.
Climbing out of Queen Street there are less driving axles on a 4-car 385 than a 3-car 170. Be interesting to see what happens on a greasy rail.

 

[Clansman]

Why do politicians always say that new trains are faster than the old trains. Is this deliberate or just through ignorance. Are 385s really faster than 170s? I thought both are 100mph top speed.
Climbing out of Queen Street there are less driving axles on a 4-car 385 than a 3-car 170. Be interesting to see what happens on a greasy rail.

Faster acceleration. Typical play on words. Hate how they are talking about improved passengers comfort - what is this based on? The 385s will have far smaller seat base and backs with less padding, no window alignment for more seats (whereas every seat on 170s had a window (except side facing ones)).

The only positive thing to be said of the 385s is that they will probably be more punctual, faster accelerating, greener and longer. Nothing to it in terms of passenger comfort - quite the opposite.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The low level entrance could easily be relocated to allow the extension of platform 1 as well as more space in general. Aren't they best to just build the additional 2 platforms in the "cloudy" area so that Queen Street will be able to sustain future demand, as well as ensuring that there won't be any major works for decades after.



Great news. The visuals look right smart so they do - it's about time Queen Street was a true representation of the gateway to the North.

Relocating the low level access wouldn't be worth it. However, I think that escalators would be a worthwhile investment on the western side. These aren't included in the current programme of works but I can see them being increasingly useful with larger numbers of passengers passing through the low level. Also of note is that the interchange between the high and low levels is going to be improved somewhat as they'll be behind one common gateline. The corridor from the eastbound platform is going to be opened up so that you'll be able to walk straight out into the high level concourse rather than having to wind your way past the current travel centre. This is one of the reasons why there won't be any space for retail or catering in the station though.

Remember that the main constraint on capacity into the station is the two-track tunnel and incline. Having more platform space does allow more capacity in the sense that you can have some more trains arrive than leave, or vice-versa, at peak times but this isn't an especially efficient or scalable method. In the short term the last simple thing that can be done is to electrify the Anniesland service. Sending trains out to Anniesland and back is a convenient way of getting rid of them during busy times without sending them too far to make up a return journey.

 

[deltic08]

The low level entrance could easily be relocated to allow the extension of platform 1 as well as more space in general. Aren't they best to just build the additional 2 platforms in the "cloudy" area so that Queen Street will be able to sustain future demand, as well as ensuring that there won't be any major works for decades after.



Great news. The visuals look right smart so they do - it's about time Queen Street was a true representation of the gateway to the North.

If it wasn't for Buchanan Galleries which no doubt was a developer making money more than anything else, the station throat could have been extended into the tunnel with additional platforms in the parking area. When will we learn not to build on railway land when more and more people want to travel by train?

I think the new front at Queen Street is a carbuncle and doesn't blend with the rest of George Sq. architecture.

 

[deltic08]

Post 2019 routes for remaining Scotrail DMUs for anyone wondering:

Class 170
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Isn't it rather wasteful to use 100mph trains pottering to Anniesland and back when they could be out on a mainline somewhere?

 

[gsnedders]

Isn't it rather wasteful to use 100mph trains pottering to Anniesland and back when they could be out on a mainline somewhere?

And then have a micro-fleet of something else for Anniesland with all the wastefulness of needing spare parts, maintenance equipment, etc. for another class? They're both kinda bad options, but using the same as the mainline stock gives operational flexibility with diagrams that a micro-fleet wouldn't.

 

[InOban]

Post 2019 routes for remaining Scotrail DMUs for anyone wondering:

Class 170
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Class 158
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street Perth/Dundee/Arbroath
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle
Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank
Edinburgh Waverley to Perth/Dundee/Arbroath via Kirkcaldy
Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh/Thurso/Wick
Inverness to Elgin/Kingussie*
Aberdeen to Inverurie/Montrose*

Class 156
Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland
Glasgow Queen Street to Oban/Fort William/Mallaig
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride
Glasgow Central to Barrhead/Kilmarnock/Stranraer/Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle
Edinburgh Waverley to Glenrothes via Fife Circle

*running through the stated principle station

Are these allocations definite? Users of the WHL will be furious if they are going to be stuck with drafty, non air-conditioned, totally unsuitable stock, 'refurbished' or not. The commitment in the franchise was for modernised 158s with seats matching windows etc. Nothing less.
And I think Dumfries also currently has 158s. They won't be happy at the downgrade to inferior, and slower, stock. The 156 should not be used on any journey over 30 minutes.

 

[deltic08]

Not just as simple as that though.

The West Highland Line is not cleared for operation of 158s. With doors that come out to open at platforms, rather than slide.

So don't your breath for seeing any soon.

So do Mk2/3 slam doors on the sleepers so what is new?

 

[deltic08]

And then have a micro-fleet of something else for Anniesland with all the wastefulness of needing spare parts, maintenance equipment, etc. for another class? They're both kinda bad options, but using the same as the mainline stock gives operational flexibility with diagrams that a micro-fleet wouldn't.

But with most of the services into Queen St being 385s and HSTs, the Anniesland service would be a microfleet of something anyway. Why not 156s or WHL 158s?

 

[Strathclyder]

I think the new front at Queen Street is a carbuncle and doesn't blend with the rest of George Sq. architecture.

Whilst I would generally agree that it ain't perfect, nor all that sympathetic to the surrounding architecture, anything is better than the 'brick on stilts' it's replacing, which has deteriorated into one of the city's most prominent eyesores, sticking out like a sore thumb and is hardly a welcoming first/last sight for passengers/visitors/tourists.

The new frontage will be a 10-fold improvement for that corner of the Square and the city centre in terms of ambience, aesthetics and streetscape. Glad to see it all finally start to come together.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If it wasn't for Buchanan Galleries which no doubt was a developer making money more than anything else, the station throat could have been extended into the tunnel with additional platforms in the parking area. When will we learn not to build on railway land when more and more people want to travel by train?

I think the new front at Queen Street is a carbuncle and doesn't blend with the rest of George Sq. architecture.

The station throat could only have been extended if they had cut away at the original Victorian retaining walls that lead to the tunnel. The existing Buchanan Galleries was built on a bridge over the northernmost part of the cutting, and the plan was to cover over the rest of it down to the Cathedral Street bridge. Totally rebuilding the cutting this was was never on the cards and would be unlikely to be worthwhile in any sense, because then you just shift the train length bottleneck somewhere else. Extending the E&G services beyond 8 carriages creates problems at Waverley because the western bay platforms are only about that length.

 

[marks87]

Are these allocations definite? Users of the WHL will be furious if they are going to be stuck with drafty, non air-conditioned, totally unsuitable stock, 'refurbished' or not. The commitment in the franchise was for modernised 158s with seats matching windows etc. Nothing less.
And I think Dumfries also currently has 158s. They won't be happy at the downgrade to inferior, and slower, stock. The 156 should not be used on any journey over 30 minutes.

Dumfries has 156s.

 

[InOban]

I stand corrected. I thought I had seen the 158 in Central.
I still insist that in 2017 the 156 is not fit for purpose for longer journeys. The 158 was designed for these longer trips.