Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[Blindtraveler]

Iether way its a shambolic disaster.

So if E and G wires go live soon do we have a timescale for the new EMUs entering traffic? Also are platform extentions in that big empty glass building site in Glasgow ready for 8 car yet?

 

[najaB]

So if E and G wires go live soon do we have a timescale for the new EMUs entering traffic? Also are platform extentions in that big empty glass building site in Glasgow ready for 8 car yet?

As I understand things, they can support six-car trains as-is so the three-car sets can go into operation as soon as the wiring is live.

 

[gsnedders]

As I understand things, they can support six-car trains as-is so the three-car sets can go into operation as soon as the wiring is live.

They can support seven-car as-is. 4+3 cars as a temporary measure. Though whether they do that while it's 380s I don't know.

 

[me123]

They need to get a move on with GLQ. I was in the station a few weeks back and was quite shocked. I know that the redevelopment hadn't intended to achieve much in the railway station itself, but I wasn't expecting it to look that much worse than it was prior to the redevelopment. Plus - the "normals" probably wondered what on earth the closure had achieved, which puts the railway into a rather poor light.

It needs sorting urgently. I'm not talking about a multi-billion pound state-of-the-art terminal, just basic housekeeping for the most part. Get it back to what it was a year ago, then there's not as much of an urgency to get the full redevelopment done (which means it can be done well).

 

[NotATrainspott]

Hitachi AT200 Stakeholder Consultation

The 3 and 4 car sets will be introduced together to run the E&G shuttle, replacing 3+4 380s. 8 car operation can only go ahead once the Queen Street platform extension works are complete. However, the 3 car sets to be used on some of the other routes will only be freed up by the delivery of further 4-car sets later on. Not being able to run 8 car sets on the E&G would be rather problematic, as not only would the E&G capacity increase not be delivered but also there may be too many trains but still not enough capacity on other routes. Two 3-car sets could be freed up and replaced by a 4-car set on other routes in the short term but this would mean less capacity, while there would be other 4-car sets left idle as services can't be doubled up or more of them run.

They need to get a move on with GLQ. I was in the station a few weeks back and was quite shocked. I know that the redevelopment hadn't intended to achieve much in the railway station itself, but I wasn't expecting it to look that much worse than it was prior to the redevelopment. Plus - the "normals" probably wondered what on earth the closure had achieved, which puts the railway into a rather poor light.

It needs sorting urgently. I'm not talking about a multi-billion pound state-of-the-art terminal, just basic housekeeping for the most part. Get it back to what it was a year ago, then there's not as much of an urgency to get the full redevelopment done (which means it can be done well).

As I said, the problem is that standing still simply won't work. The platform extensions must go ahead, but the only way for them to happen is for the front of the station to be demolished and replaced. That work won't be able to happen in isolation with the rest of the station redevelopment. The only part that isn't necessary is the Buchanan Galleries work that was to provide the shops and catering, as NR have taken out an insurance policy and got planning approval for a basic traincrew and BTP building in the car park.

 

[gsnedders]

Hitachi AT200 Stakeholder Consultation

The 3 and 4 car sets will be introduced together to run the E&G shuttle, replacing 3+4 380s. 8 car operation can only go ahead once the Queen Street platform extension works are complete. However, the 3 car sets to be used on some of the other routes will only be freed up by the delivery of further 4-car sets later on. Not being able to run 8 car sets on the E&G would be rather problematic, as not only would the E&G capacity increase not be delivered but also there may be too many trains but still not enough capacity on other routes. Two 3-car sets could be freed up and replaced by a 4-car set on other routes in the short term but this would mean less capacity, while there would be other 4-car sets left idle as services can't be doubled up or more of them run.

How hard would it be to take one car out of the 4-car sets temporarily and store them somewhere (heck, Eastfield is going to be comparatively quiet, is it not?)?

 

[mcmad]

Eastfield is getting wires (and extended) to stable the electric stock I believe.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I was still feeling (sort of) good about electrification "Well at least Scotland has a rolling programme and is getting it right".


Looks like I may be too optimistic.

 

[NotATrainspott]

How hard would it be to take one car out of the 4-car sets temporarily and store them somewhere (heck, Eastfield is going to be comparatively quiet, is it not?)?

I recall seeing a technical description of the 385s which suggested that 4 car versions aren't just a 3 car with an extra vehicle. While I'm sure they could be reconfigured I very much doubt that this would be worthwhile.

I was still feeling (sort of) good about electrification "Well at least Scotland has a rolling programme and is getting it right".


Looks like I may be too optimistic.

This isn't an electrification problem. The wires at Queen Street are going live in only a week or so. This is a redevelopment problem where the smallest and simplest of infrastructure changes (moving the buffers back into the concourse, as the throat has already been reconfigured) is causing chaos.

 

[Altnabreac]

The hold up is in awaiting authorisation of the TAWS order. That isn't Network Rail's fault.

My understanding is that they can run 7 car sets into Queen St even without most of the TAWS work being done? Its only 8 car running that would be restricted for now isn't it?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This isn't an electrification problem. The wires at Queen Street are going live in only a week or so. This is a redevelopment problem where the smallest and simplest of infrastructure changes (moving the buffers back into the concourse, as the throat has already been reconfigured) is causing chaos.

I do understand but sadly the politicians wont and will just see "Electrification causes disruption and delays"

 

[Carntyne]

Seven car trains (i.e. Class 380) will be running at some point in the May timetable change. Its 8 car working that's hindered by TS delaying the TAWS order.

 

[Altnabreac]

Seven car trains (i.e. Class 380) will be running at some point in the May timetable change. Its 8 car working that's hindered by TS delaying the TAWS order.

So not a huge problem then. All the services scheduled to get 3 car trains can use 4 cars instead. All 8 car services can be run as 7 car in the meantime.

 

[mcmad]

The issue might be turning the wires on in the first place. I'm hearing of frantic last minute works and lots of meetings trying to get agreement on leaving lots of work (around the fringes, vegetation clearance, raising parapets to the new height etc) till post switch on.

It's follow up cousin in Stirling-Dunblane-Alloa isn't in a much better position either and they've made some fairly rash promises on stage 1 go live date.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And what exactly happens to all the pax displaced/crammed into short formed trains to free up 380s for this stage in the project? The inverclyde extra services and those to Ayrshire took I understand most of the slack in that fleat and I wonder what the regulars on the E and G will think of these rattly standard class only trains?

 

[edwin_m]

Isn't providing replacement capacity for 380s just a question of keeping the 314s in service that bit longer than otherwise?

 

[Clansman]

Who's actually benefiting from 380s on E-G?

Definitely not the passengers - as good as the 380s are, they are a downgrade from the majority of Scotrail 170s in terms of passenger comfort.

 

[InOban]

Putting some 380s on E-G releases some 170s to replace some158s for refurbishment, so that us poor sods who have to endure 156s for over 3 hours can at least see some light at the end of the tunnel...

 

[GusB]

Putting some 380s on E-G releases some 170s to replace some158s for refurbishment, so that us poor sods who have to endure 156s for over 3 hours can at least see some light at the end of the tunnel...

It's character-building

I hadn't realised they were planning to put 158s on the West Highland. I was under the impression that they weren't cleared for that route - or am I getting them muddled up with 170s?

 

[me123]

^They certainly weren't cleared (and possibly/probably still aren't), but I understand it was a case of "we haven't done it" rather than "it can't be done".

 

[Blindtraveler]

Last I heard was they now arnt going on the WHL

perhaps the 156 refits should be accellarated once the 380s start rattling pax between Edin and Glasgow?

 

[InOban]

158s for the WHL were in the franchise. We will be decidedly miffed if we don't get them, unless we get short-form HSTs instead!...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Scotraildriver
posted in the Scotrail thread a few days ago that they now wernt going on there due to all the recent overheating/radiater issues lately.

I can quite understand your frustrations up there however, the 156's in current condition are a poor proposition and I for one would use the coach. The refurbed ones with new seats, USB sockets etc should be better.

 

[Southsider]

And what exactly happens to all the pax displaced/crammed into short formed trains to free up 380s for this stage in the project? The inverclyde extra services and those to Ayrshire took I understand most of the slack in that fleat and I wonder what the regulars on the E and G will think of these rattly standard class only trains?

Weren't there meant to be some 4 car 321s coming north to release 380s?

 

[gsnedders]

Weren't there meant to be some 4 car 321s coming north to release 380s?

They were converted to 320/4s (removing the TSO) and released the 380s in the winter timetable. Only seven, mind.

 

[Clansman]

They were converted to 320/4s (removing the TSO) and released the 380s in the winter timetable. Only seven, mind.

I take it these replaced the 380 diagrams to Motherwell, Lanark and the Cathcart Circle? Probably explains why I saw a 320 on the Motherwell semi-fast before the Scotland game.

 

[gsnedders]

I take it these replaced the 380 diagrams to Motherwell, Lanark and the Cathcart Circle? Probably explains why I saw a 320 on the Motherwell semi-fast before the Scotland game.

Not entirely, but mostly, AFAIK.

[Edit: ironically enough, my 380th post!]

 

[47271]

A lot of bla in this story about Scotrail governance generally, I frankly can't be bothered with most of the hot air expended on the subject, but see this paragraph within:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/..._chief_over_powers_and_delays__says_minister/

Following claims by Network Rail that contractual and legal wranglings stalling the overhaul of Glasgow's Queen Street station, Mr Yousaf said the required Government authorisations, knows as TAWS orders, would be signed off within 48 hours following an eight months hold up.

 

[Starmill]

There will be no short forming to provide 7-car 380s for E&G. The December re-allocation of stock in the Glasgow area was with the aim of achieving surplus 380s to do this work. I think the Franchise Agreement committed them to operate 7-car trains on the E&G from last December.

 

[Mordac]

And what exactly happens to all the pax displaced/crammed into short formed trains to free up 380s for this stage in the project? The inverclyde extra services and those to Ayrshire took I understand most of the slack in that fleat and I wonder what the regulars on the E and G will think of these rattly standard class only trains?

380s are anything but rattly. There's 18 first class seats on the 170s, and most of the time there's no one on them. 380s are modern, comfortable, and go like the clappers. I don't see why everyone is making travelling on them such a massive hardship. I love them personally.

They were converted to 320/4s (removing the TSO) and released the 380s in the winter timetable. Only seven, mind.

There were some rumours around that ScotRail was getting the last 3 321's of Great Northern and bringing them up as 321s for a temporary boost until the 385s came online. This was never officially confirm, and seems to have died down of late. Don't know what the situation is.