Scotsman Train V Plane Challenge

[Metroland]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7365329.stm

The BBC did a race between London and Edinburgh in 2008 and it was a draw, pretty much.

 

[Failed Unit]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7365329.stm

The BBC did a race between London and Edinburgh in 2008 and it was a draw, pretty much.

That was the one I was looking for, I did recall there was not much in it, I am sure it will be the same for this one. But the train is the nicer journey overall as it is more productive.

 

[rb311]

And what makes it a Stalinist comment?

A troll is someone who makes claims without being able to back them up - I believe a member on here asked for your sources to a claim about 2 days ago, and you are still yet to list it.

Sadly, my friend, you got the wrong end of the stick. It was the banning of all flights your friend was advocating I was commenting on, but I can see how you got confused.

As to this obsession with providing statistics, failed unit et al, I read a lot of posts on hear based on opinion, hearsay, anecdote etc.

What I don't notice is much reading of anyone elses posts, before commenting.

Can failed unit please highlight and post where i mentioned 100% on time?

Furthermore, failed unit, you were wrong regarding business class,

And as to providing proof, if you don't agree with me, provide me with the counter argument...It's you who has the issue not me.

But why don't you read what I say before you go off on another diatribe.?

As to the race, that was between Edinburgh and Heathrow, which is not what I have been talking about.

And I see, failed unit, that the rail journey's nicer now.. Can you provide the statistics to prove that please...

Moreover it appears that being an aviation professional does not qualify me to comment on rail issues, but being a rail enthusiast allows for "informed comment" on aviation.. but, hey i can live with that.

 

[Metroland]

And I see, failed unit, that the rail journey's nicer now.. Can you provide the statistics to prove that please...

People voting with their feet and abandoning domestic aviation on many routes says all we need to know.

So what is your obsession with putting over your subjective opinion on this forum? You're clearly not an enthusiast and have a vested interest, which again, says everything we need to know.

 

[Geezertronic]

London City was shut to inbound aircraft two weeks ago for 3hrs one morning, due to low visibility (no a), the first time this year, actually.

I actually started by saying that the airport is affected around 8 days a year, so we still have 7 to go until December

Doesn't the ash cloud closures count against this number?

 

[Failed Unit]

Sadly, my friend, you got the wrong end of the stick. It was the banning of all flights your friend was advocating I was commenting on, but I can see how you got confused.

You should take your own advice about reading my friend. I said I would like to see all flights banished not banned big difference. Flights are bannished from the Liverpool - London route because no-one wanted to use them because Virgin trains provided a better product. It would be good if the domestic flight was bannished because it was no commercailly viable, but I admit demand will alway exist.

What I don't notice is much reading of anyone elses posts, before commenting.

Furthermore, failed unit, you were wrong regarding business class,

No I wasn't it was premium economy not Business class big difference! But you already know that otherwise you would have named the airline when I firsted asked, but didn't because you know the difference as well as I do!

And as to providing proof, if you don't agree with me, provide me with the counter argument...It's you who has the issue not me.

- I am glad you are not a scientist or doing research

But why don't you read what I say before you go off on another diatribe.?

And I see, failed unit, that the rail journey's nicer now.. Can you provide the statistics to prove that please...

There is a lot of evidence to support that claim on this thread, I suggest you read the thread.

Moreover it appears that being an aviation professional does not qualify me to comment on rail issues, but being a rail enthusiast allows for "informed comment" on aviation.. but, hey i can live with that.

 

[imagination]

My grandma also claims that every time she goes on a train it gets delayed.

And indeed, every time in the last 25 years she has gone by train, it has been delayed. This comes to a grand total of 1 return trip. Yet she uses it as though trains always being delayed when she is on them is a law of nature.

Anyone who claims they always get delayed on trains are either:
a) ridiculously pedantic, to the point of counting 12:24:02 when the doors open (not when the train arrives) as being "late" when the train is supposed to be at 12:23.
b) someone who very rarely travels by train (like my grandma)
or
c) lying

 

[rb311]

I should have known it. Im up against a bunch of enthusiastic train travellers who can't, or won't accept any view point but their own.

Smiley faces don't constitute a counter point.

Ash clouds aren't fog. The ash crisis was an industry reacting to a potential safety issue. Perhaps they over reacted, but at least they did so before lives were lost. Hatfield anyone? No of course not, you'll all come up with some amazing reason why that was justifiable.

I'm still waiting for:

a) all my bizarre claims to be listed.
b) someone to explain why an underground train is not a train.
c) where i said 100% of all flights were on time.

amongst other things.

In any case, until you can prove otherwise, travelling by plane from Edinburgh to London City is faster... end of.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In any case, until you can prove otherwise, travelling by plane from Edinburgh to London City is faster... end of.

it is faster to get you to the area that constitutes Edinburgh and London broadly, but its where you need to get to/from after that, which is where rail catches up timewise. Fancy looking up planes from Liverpool JL Apt-London Apts...?

(Where's the banging your head against the wall smiley?)

 

[Failed Unit]

I should have known it. Im up against a bunch of enthusiastic train travellers who can't, or won't accept any view point but their own.

Pot and Kettle me thinks

I'm still waiting for:

a) all my bizarre claims to be listed.
b) someone to explain why an underground train is not a train.
c) where i said 100% of all flights were on time.

amongst other things.

Again pot and kettle, once you provide an airline that operates business class (not economy plus), provide proof of your 100% timekeeping etc then I may give your request some respect, you are capable of re-reading your posts so you should be able to work that out for yourself - this isn't primary school you know!

In any case, until you can prove otherwise, travelling by plane from Edinburgh to London City is faster... end of.

If that is not a quote from someone that won't listen to opinions that are not in agreement of his own I don't know what is.

I have provided an example - you don't like it so you are ignoring it. I could list many others this year, but again you would moan that air-traffic delays should not be held against airlines. However I can just see you throwing your toys out of the pram on this example so I will provide it.

London - Edinburgh in January can't remember the exact date but the country was hit by heavy snow.

Rail Journey taken by me - Arrived at Edinburgh 2 hours late due to overhead line problems. Ticket Fully refunded and taxi home provided.
Air journey taken by a collegue - Flight cancelled due to air traffic restrictions, no help from Airline, abandoned and forced to take the sleeper train home as it least it was running.

So now I have provided 2 examples, both of them the air travel has had problems (one at City), but I am afraid problems with air-travel is very common. Like sitting on the tarmac at Heathrow for 2 hours after arriving from Canada waiting for a stand on a summer day with not a cloud in the sky? Not allowed to leave you seat to use the toilet - yep air travel is wonderful!

 

[jon0844]

Anyone who claims they always get delayed on trains are either:
a) ridiculously pedantic, to the point of counting 12:24:02 when the doors open (not when the train arrives) as being "late" when the train is supposed to be at 12:23.
b) someone who very rarely travels by train (like my grandma)
or
c) lying

They're probably the same people who say that all trains are slow and dirty, when they're usually pretty spotless and cleaned regularly. And if they ARE dirty then it will be down to passengers throwing up on them or chucking food and drink all over the place - which says more about the passengers than the rail operator.

And as for slow, some services are (for various reasons) given a lot of time to get somewhere - and may seem slow, but are still running to time (or early). It can be frustrating that the train isn't going at max speed always, but these people will happily tell everyone on their mobile that the train is delayed. No it isn't!!

 

[rb311]

Failed unit, at least you live up to your name.

You still haven't answered my questions...

As to examples of the delights of modern rail travel.

Travelled between Watford junction and Birmingham international. Not exactly a long distance journey.. Because I had to catch a flight (yes), i thought i had better leave at least 2 extra hours and I needed them all. the train limped to northampton. The announer stated that all pax for stoke on trent needed to change there... So us for brum stayed on.. and stayed on and stayed on.

Then half an hour later, an announcement, all change, we now had to wait another 25 minutes for another train, which was a stopping train, so I arrived at my expected destination an hour and half late... tough luck was the answer. and the excuse: failed unit...mmmm

Travelling from birmingham to watford junction. having arrived early on the plane, I asked the very helpful ticket desk attendant if i could take the earlier train (i had booked the ticket in advance). yes, but it would cost £38 extra...

so I waited the extra hour, and guess what, the train was late arriving, at birmingham, and then proceeded to arrive late at Watford junction..

Just two consecutive journeys, with two differenct companies...

As to comfort on the trains. Well, on the way up, surrounded by a group of beering football supporters, who were swearing infront of all and sundry. On the way back, someone sitting in my reserved seat who was very reluctant to move... then surrounded by two snoring oap women, dribbling onto their blouses who were very upset when i wanted to escape..

the joys of rail travel... episode 1, chapter 1, verse 1

By the way, the accounts above are official statistics too. you can look them up on the interweb.

 

[jon0844]

£38 extra to travel on an earlier train? A stark contrast to my recent Aer Lingus flight where they wanted over £200 each, plus a £50 admin fee to go on an earlier flight from Dublin!

 

[rb311]

but theres a difference here, mr morris. trains, as most posters here keep on claiming ad nauseum, are turn up and go.. Planes aren't..

 

[Metroland]

but theres a difference here, mr morris. trains, as most posters here keep on claiming ad nauseum, are turn up and go.. Planes aren't..

I'm just trying to work out the psychology of someone that obviously doesn't like something and insists on posting on special interest forums.

I don't really think anyone gives a damn if the plane is 10 mins quicker or said poster thinks planes are wonderful. You remind me of one of those religion types that call round at unwanted times and keep getting in the way, telling the unwitting householder that they have the truth and it's your only way to saviour.

So some people on here prefer travelling by train between said points, and other don't. Big deal. The clue is in the title.

Please go away and do something more productive like watching paint dry on aircraft models.

 

[jon0844]

but theres a difference here, mr morris. trains, as most posters here keep on claiming ad nauseum, are turn up and go.. Planes aren't..

I can turn up at an airport and travel on any flight with seats, but I'll pay a hefty fee.

You, mr 311, can turn up and get any train, but you'll pay the higher cost. You spoke of an advance ticket, which is just like a nice cheap advance ticket on an airline. Miss it and it's tough ****.

It's certainly risky to book an advance ticket following a flight. You'll maybe arrive 'early' (thus proving that some airlines include a massive margin for delays), on time or a bit late - and then customs (if you came from abroad) might stop you, or passport control is on a go-slow.

When you book a specific seat on a specific train, the 'turn up and go' element disappears.

 

[rb311]

I'm just trying to work out the psychology of someone that obviously doesn't like something and insists on posting on special interest forums.

I don't really think anyone gives a damn if the plane is 10 mins quicker or said poster thinks planes are wonderful. You remind me of one of those religion types that call round at unwanted times and keep getting in the way, telling the unwitting householder that they have the truth and it's your only way to saviour.

So some people on here prefer travelling by train between said points, and other don't. Big deal. The clue is in the title.

Please go away and do something more productive like watching paint dry on aircraft models.

Oh, ok, I get the picture. I thought this might be a mature site where the positives and negatives (ample obviously) of rail travel and all it's issues might be discussed by mature, informed, and perhaps even professional people. How wrong I am.

I have witnessed some unbelievably immature, narrow minded, illogical, inconsequential, and quite frankly, very disappointing arguments here. Railways are, and, Im afraid will continue to be a thing of the past, as long as people like yourself, and ironies of ironies, failed unit, defend them.

Go back to your train sets and play with yourelves.

 

[Metroland]

Run along now, straight home, and don't talk to any strangers, and mind the airfix kit you left outside the play pen when you get back inside.

 

[MCR247]

Oh, ok, I get the picture. I thought this might be a mature site where the positives and negatives (ample obviously) of rail travel and all it's issues might be discussed by mature, informed, and perhaps even professional people. How wrong I am.

I have witnessed some unbelievably immature, narrow minded, illogical, inconsequential, and quite frankly, very disappointing arguments here. Railways are, and, Im afraid will continue to be a thing of the past, as long as people like yourself, and ironies of ironies, failed unit, defend them.

Go back to your train sets and play with yourelves.

What were you saying?:roll::roll:


Bye then, but I'd love for there to be another ash cloud and you were forced to get a train! You might even find it quicker not that you'd admit it

 

[Greenback]

Oh, ok, I get the picture. I thought this might be a mature site where the positives and negatives (ample obviously) of rail travel and all it's issues might be discussed by mature, informed, and perhaps even professional people. How wrong I am.

I have witnessed some unbelievably immature, narrow minded, illogical, inconsequential, and quite frankly, very disappointing arguments here. Railways are, and, Im afraid will continue to be a thing of the past, as long as people like yourself, and ironies of ironies, failed unit, defend them.

Go back to your train sets and play with yourelves.

Well, you have now proved yourself to be all of thsoe thigns that you have listed. Somethign I suspected when you first came on to the site with the ridiculous suggestion that all railways should be closed down as air was the travel method fo the future for everyone.

You really are a sad case. This is one of the most mature sites I have ever been a membe rof, It's obviously far too mature for you judging by your final comment!

 

[At_traction]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7365329.stm

The BBC did a race between London and Edinburgh in 2008 and it was a draw, pretty much.

Interesting.

As was also their differing assessment of the LU experience:

Julie: The Heathrow Express took me from Heathrow to Paddington in just 15 minutes. But getting across town proved a challenge. Delays on the underground made the trip across town a slow and laborious process and gave Kevin the chance of pipping me at the post.

Kevin: And while Julie was going nowhere fast - I stepped off the train at Kings Cross five minutes early. A short trip on the underground to Westminster put me in with a great chance of beating Julie to the prize.

Is the connection from PAD to Westminster really that much more tortuous even in the rush than from KGX? Roughly similar distance, Bakerloo+Jubilee vs. Victoria+Jubilee?

The race was then actually totally a head-to-head rail race except for her connection to the Edinburgh airport and a "short" flight hop...

 

[bnm]

I have witnessed some unbelievably immature, narrow minded, illogical, inconsequential, and quite frankly, very disappointing arguments here.

Go back to your train sets and play with yourelves.

Yet again... pot and kettle.

Oh, and I don't allow elves anywhere near my train set.

 

[Bittern]

Oh, and I don't allow elves anywhere near my train set.

Epic win.

 

[Geezertronic]

Travelled between Watford junction and Birmingham international. Not exactly a long distance journey.. Because I had to catch a flight (yes), i thought i had better leave at least 2 extra hours and I needed them all. the train limped to northampton. The announer stated that all pax for stoke on trent needed to change there... So us for brum stayed on.. and stayed on and stayed on

Then half an hour later, an announcement, all change, we now had to wait another 25 minutes for another train, which was a stopping train, so I arrived at my expected destination an hour and half late... tough luck was the answer. and the excuse: failed unit...mmmm

So that would have been with London Midland then?

Travelling from birmingham to watford junction. having arrived early on the plane, I asked the very helpful ticket desk attendant if i could take the earlier train (i had booked the ticket in advance). yes, but it would cost £38 extra...

so I waited the extra hour, and guess what, the train was late arriving, at birmingham, and then proceeded to arrive late at Watford junction..

Just two consecutive journeys, with two differenct companies...

The 2nd journey would have been Virgin Trains then?

As to comfort on the trains. Well, on the way up, surrounded by a group of beering football supporters, who were swearing infront of all and sundry. On the way back, someone sitting in my reserved seat who was very reluctant to move... then surrounded by two snoring oap women, dribbling onto their blouses who were very upset when i wanted to escape..

Over exaggeration if ever I heard it, you're not a tabloid journalist are you?

the joys of rail travel... episode 1, chapter 1, verse 1

The joys of travelling by plane are arrive early for check in, wait around for ages, go through security, finally get on the thing, more waiting before take off, take off, land, more waiting around, get off, wait around etc...

Pot Kettle etc...

Oh, and I don't allow elves anywhere near my train set.

And you can play with your fairyplanes...

 

[scotsman]

I have witnessed some unbelievably immature, narrow minded, illogical, inconsequential, and quite frankly, very disappointing arguments here. Railways are, and, Im afraid will continue to be a thing of the past, as long as people like yourself, and ironies of ironies, failed unit, defend them.

Go back to your train sets and play with yourelves.

You remind me of the school kids who used go to a another nearby school to start fights, then run away when people started to get hurt.

 

[silentone]

If you travel between Scotland & London you can use the Scottish Exec return, I think it's £186 including 3 course meal.

Any other part of the route the scheme is operated as Park, Dine & Go or something and includes parking and meals and what not. It's more expensive but still quite competitive.

The Train vs Plane race has been done quite a few times and each time both arrive within minutes of each other.

In this instance I think they are pre-booking tickets the day before travel (most likely using the Scottish Exec ticket) and beginning the 'race' early morning. The Airport Bus is currently being divereted I think but early morning shouldn't take more than 30 mins, if they start the race later they could well be looking at an hour or more on the bus to the airport because of traffic and diversions.

It seems like they are taking the 0550 Edb- Kgx service which is due in about 1020 I think.

 

[TDK]

childish, all of you, all it takes is someone to critisize the railways and they are a troll and get all prongs of the fork, you have to admit it, the railways in the UK are not a patch as our European partners, this is due to lack of space for new builds and also too many protesters, also not enough money as it has all been wasted by the now departed peoples government.

For comfort it has to be the train, for reliability and punctuality it has to be the plane, before you all jump down my throat I actually work for the railway and see it from the inside!

 

[me123]

For comfort it has to be the train, for reliability and punctuality it has to be the plane, before you all jump down my throat I actually work for the railway and see it from the inside!

The punctuality figures do speak for themselves, though. The rail punctuality figures for the Anglo-Scottish market are better than the air figures for the same routes. I believe it's about 75% of flights arriving on time (ie up to 15 minutes late) compared to 90% of rail services arriving on time (ie up to 10 minutes late). In terms of reliability and punctuality, I know which one I'd choose.

And I'd like to say at this point that my earlier post where I claim that flights are delayed "more often than not" is obviously not backed by evidence, and that I've merely had a rather poor experience of flying. In the same way that some others will have a poor experience of railway timekeeping.

I'm not saying that there's not scope for improvement; of course there is. Rail really can and should do better than 90%. But the figures speak for themselves.

And, of course domestic flights still have a role. Most notably, if I'm going to travel via any London airport, I will choose to fly to the London airport rather than getting trains and rail links and underground and whatnot. And I can see the benefits of flying to Stansted and Luton if you live close to those areas. And I can see that flying to the City of London is still an attractive option.

But another statistic that struck me (and I can't remember if it was on here or elsewhere that I saw it) was the percentage share of the Anglo-Scottish market for rail, that has increased significantly since the ash cloud and stayed remarkably high. Clearly, there are many people who've switched to the rails since that incident and haven't returned to the planes (although I'm sure that just as many people have returned to flying). Again, that's got to say something about the railways, if more and more people are continuing to choose rail for longer distance domestic travel. They must be doing something right.

As for "rb311" calling us childish... you only need to glance through his posts on this thread to see the irony in that statement, most notably his most recent comment on the matter.

 

[Greenback]

All forms of transport have their place. To state that one is automatically better than the others, is complete nonsense!

 

[Metroland]

...And the perfect definition of a troll if you come onto a rail forum (or any other interest forum) with an axe to grind, not acknowledge any points, to the sole wish to bang your chest and prove X is better than Y (because that's my world view) and my dad is bigger than yours.

He'd have got far more respect, if he had debated using statistics, and quotes from informed writing, like you would write an essay or carry out a debate in an educational institution, then each side actually learns something rather than getting het up.

Instead his mind was never going to be changed by anything anyone could have said, and it was a waste of time, and I make no apologies for nipping it in the bud.