Scotsman Train V Plane Challenge

[MCR247]

Do you know that? It isn't just timings, there is tasks which they must do, which might not be that easy on a plane

 

[rb311]

Well apart from stick your head out of the window and get it knocked off by a passing train, I struggle to think what you can do on a train that you can't do on a plane, oh apart from making mobile phone calls, which might be an advantage...

 

[Failed Unit]

My experience is different. Rail is always faster than using city to Edinburgh. Rb311 we have mentioned rails problems FYI and highlighted the rail industry helps you out and does not leave you stranded unlike the airline industry. On rail 5 minutes late and people moan. By air people accept small delays. Airlines are guilty of padding schedules as well to make the look better.

To me there is no choice get on at kings cross and enjoy the journey. Work eat whatever. No need to worry about that bottle of water I have, or the razor I need to use. Just 4 hours of productive working time! Most importantly no baa!

 

[ainsworth74]

I struggle to think what you can do on a train that you can't do on a plane

Have a nice meal, have plenty of space (certainly in first anyway), better travelling environment (no engine noise). Just a few I can think of.

Certainly sounds like an interesting challenge, I await the actually event itself with interest

 

[rb311]

decent meal on a train???? heard it all now..

as to space, ditto in business.. not all airlines are ezjet...

engine noise.. are trains really that quiet now?? i must have particularly sensitive hearing.

 

[MCR247]

Well apart from stick your head out of the window and get it knocked off by a passing train, I struggle to think what you can do on a train that you can't do on a plane, oh apart from making mobile phone calls, which might be an advantage...

Well if say, the results are say plane 30 minutes overall quicker than the train, how much of the time using plane could you do work? Not much really compared to by train

 

[Failed Unit]

decent meal on a train???? heard it all now..

as to space, ditto in business.. not all airlines are ezjet...

engine noise.. are trains really that quiet now?? i must have particularly sensitive hearing.

Perhaps you should try it rather than slag off a product you clearly know nothing about. The 3 course meal you get on east coast certainly beats the plastic sandwich the airlines offer (if you are lucky).

Business class on a domestic route? Last time I flew the pitch was no different to cattle class.

Didn't realise airline had wifi on board domestic flights.

Have airlines stopped treating all passengers like terrorists? Making everyone queue to get into the terminal and proving a terrorist with a very easy target without even needing to buy a ticket.

I also would love to see your proof that flights between city and Edinburgh are only disrupted 8 days per year because of fog. Could you also provide evidence of 100% timekeeping on the route as this conflicts with the caa's figure.

 

[paul1609]

Sorry but I think that several of the posters here are under serious delusions about business travel. There is no way that my employer will pay for first class or meals on the train. Im most likely if travelling by train to be heading north on a std advance ticket which usually seems to mean being crammed in an airline seat with a stranger sat next to me
Security policies would prevent me working on my laptop in a public place even if I could get comfortable with it perched on my lap.
Ill probably have around £10 to pay for lunch and drinks during the day no way will that cover a trip to the restaurant car.
I personally find the standard seats on east coast really uncomfortable after about 3 hours.
Coming back Ill be on an off peak single so at least I can try to get a table to watch a video.

 

[rb311]

Well if say, the results are say plane 30 minutes overall quicker than the train, how much of the time using plane could you do work? Not much really compared to by train

If the justification for taking a longer journey is that you could do more work on that mode of transport, then why not have a shorter journey and do more work at office when you get there - better facilities, communications, support etc..

By that justification we all might as well take a horse and cart, and do a few days worth...

 

[Failed Unit]

Well apart from stick your head out of the window and get it knocked off by a passing train, I struggle to think what you can do on a train that you can't do on a plane, oh apart from making mobile phone calls, which might be an advantage...

Actually this shows how little you know about trains. You can't stick you head out of many train windows now. But at least you can either enjoy the lake district (if you are not looking at a pillar) lol. Or the Northumberland coast. Not much to see from a plane. Oh and you can walk around as you please you are not chained to your seat for long periods (all flight if the weather is bad)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

decent meal on a train???? heard it all now..

as to space, ditto in business.. not all airlines are ezjet...

engine noise.. are trains really that quiet now?? i must have particularly sensitive hearing.

East Coast I find to be one of the best TOCs for all these three categories: their First Class service is the best I've seen, and the meals are very, very good (they put VT to shame).

The layout of their First Class is excellent, nice seats, clean tables, good interior.

FInally, I cannot remember the last time I have ever heard a noise from an EC 225/HST except when in the vestibule areas: very good indeed.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry but I think that several of the posters here are under serious delusions about business travel. There is no way that my employer will pay for first class or meals on the train. Im most likely if travelling by train to be heading north on a std advance ticket which usually seems to mean being crammed in an airline seat with a stranger sat next to me
Security policies would prevent me working on my laptop in a public place even if I could get comfortable with it perched on my lap.
Ill probably have around £10 to pay for lunch and drinks during the day no way will that cover a trip to the restaurant car.
I personally find the standard seats on east coast really uncomfortable after about 3 hours.
Coming back Ill be on an off peak single so at least I can try to get a table to watch a video.

You get a seat to yourself on a plane? No sitting next to strangers?
Try the Scottish executive ticket my employer will pay for that as it is cheaper than flying when all costs are considered. You get a meal included. As for your laptop why don't you buy a screen gaurd?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If the justification for taking a longer journey is that you could do more work on that mode of transport, then why not have a shorter journey and do more work at office when you get there - better facilities, communications, support etc..

By that justification we all might as well take a horse and cart, and do a few days worth...

Thing is though, you can get to the station 5 mins before departure, work for four hours straight, uninterupted on-route, get off the train, and be at yoiur office in ten mins. Using aircraft, you have to be there however long before departure, stand around, get no work done, settle down on the plane, start working, and get one hour's work done, get off, in the middle of a field 25 miles from your office, and make your own way there.

 

[Failed Unit]

If the justification for taking a longer journey is that you could do more work on that mode of transport, then why not have a shorter journey and do more work at office when you get there - better facilities, communications, support etc..

By that justification we all might as well take a horse and cart, and do a few days worth...

So you spend 4 hours flying including getting too and from the airport or 5 hours on the train 4 of them working. I know which one my employer prefers!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

EC ran a promotion about 2-3 months ago for cheap, First Class tickets to be brought on the day of travel, meals, parking etc included, from any station Glasgow/Edinburgh/Berwick-Kings Cross for a discounted price (about £100 return methinks). I'll try to find the leaflet, but it sounded very good.

 

[rb311]

Perhaps you should try it rather than slag off a product you clearly know nothing about. The 3 course meal you get on east coast certainly beats the plastic sandwich the airlines offer (if you are lucky).

Business class on a domestic route? Last time I flew the pitch was no different to cattle class.

Didn't realise airline had wifi on board domestic flights.

Have airlines stopped treating all passengers like terrorists? Making everyone queue to get into the terminal and proving a terrorist with a very easy target without even needing to buy a ticket.

I also would love to see your proof that flights between city and Edinburgh are only disrupted 8 days per year because of fog. Could you also provide evidence of 100% timekeeping on the route as this conflicts with the caa's

figure.

I love the almost hysterical responses on this site that are generated by even the faintest criticizm of railways....

Echoing a more reasonable post, how many average business people can justify the cost of a first class ticket these days? oh, and there are business class seats on domestic flights... perhaps you should do some research.

Airlines don't treat passengers like terrorists.. The government does, and this argument has been done to death before, but the summary was that airline passengers' lives are valued more highly than rail passengers.

As to evidence. Well, I operate flights from edi to lcy all the time, so I see it with my own eyes....

But, hey, railways are best aren't they...that's the argument isn't it...??

 

[MidnightFlyer]

figure.

I love the almost hysterical responses on this site that are generated by even the faintest criticizm of railways....

But, hey, railways are best aren't they...that's the argument isn't it...??

See, it's stuff like that (totally untrue) that makes people reply like that, we are not like that on here. You spelt 'criticism' incorrectly by the way.

Railways are a lot less hassle, a lot less of a terrorism threat, and a lot nicer than planes domestically at the least.

 

[rb311]

a slip of a finger and my whole argument collapses around me...

Railways are a lot less hassle, a lot less of a terrorism threat, and a lot nicer than planes domestically at the least.

Oh the objectivity of your argument is overwhelming... I give in.. you're right.. how could I have been so blinded, so prejudiced, so wrong....???

 

[MidnightFlyer]

a slip of a finger and my whole argument collapses around me...



Oh the objectivity of your argument is overwhelming... I give in.. you're right.. how could I have been so blinded, so prejudiced, so wrong....???

For God's sake, grow up, I was illustrating a point, whan was the last time terrorists tried to blow up a train? Which realeases a lot less CO2? Which of these is a convenient turn upo and go option? What an unbelievably immature responce.

 

[Failed Unit]

figure.

I love the almost hysterical responses on this site that are generated by even the faintest criticizm of railways....

Echoing a more reasonable post, how many average business people can justify the cost of a first class ticket these days? oh, and there are business class seats on domestic flights... perhaps you should do some research.

Airlines don't treat passengers like terrorists.. The government does, and this argument has been done to death before, but the summary was that airline passengers' lives are valued more highly than rail passengers.

As to evidence. Well, I operate flights from edi to lcy all the time, so I see it with my own eyes....

Care to name the airline? Bmi don't. Ba don't. Air France don't.

Likewise let's see your independently verified figures showing the city to Edinburgh route at 100%. Oh you can't. It is like me claiming rail is at 100% just because my personal experience is. At least if you read my posts I admit to problems such as a 3 hour delay where I got a refund and a taxi home. Would an airline have bothered? No tough luck!

Oh and it is a railway forum so why are you surprised that we defend the railways from airline trolls who have no clue about rail travel.

Oh and airlines valuing passengers lives. The reaction to the volcano suggests otherwise. Likewise accidents happen all industrys because of cost savings. Have a read of a few accident investigations. Airlines have had "hatfields" as well

But, hey, railways are best aren't they...that's the argument isn't it...??[/QUOTE]

 

[rb311]

For God's sake, grow up, I was illustrating a point, whan was the last time terrorists tried to blow up a train? Which realeases a lot less CO2? Which of these is a convenient turn upo and go option? What an unbelievably immature responce.

Mmm.. Are underground trains not trains then?

You are moving the argument somewhat.. Now moving off into the murky waters of environmental comparisons... Oh, and turn up and go is another one...

Nothing immature about being exasperated at the level of argument from you, sorry.

Oh and it is a railway forum so why are you surprised that we defend the railways from airline trolls who have no clue about rail travel.

Telling people they know nothing about "their" industry, whilst pontificating in great opinions about others is not very clever. Name calling isn't really winning the argument either...

What an unbelievably immature responce.

Oh and you spelt response wrong..

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Mmm.. Are underground trains not trains then?

You are moving the argument somewhat.. Now moving off into the murky waters of environmental comparisons... Oh, and turn up and go is another one...

Oh and you spelt response wrong..

Not in a sense, no.
It is turn up and go isn't it. No passport, no baggage allowance, no screening?Oh, and you made a grammatical error in your last sentence: it should be either 'ng.' or 'ng...', such punctuation you typed doesn't exist.

 

[Failed Unit]

A troll is someone that makes claims with no evidence. So let's see some I am very interested about proof of timekeeping!

 

[rb311]

Not in a sense, no.
It is turn up and go isn't it. No passport, no baggage allowance, no screening?Oh, and you made a grammatical error in your last sentence: it should be either 'ng.' or 'ng...', such punctuation you typed doesn't exist.

You know, Im fascinated by this argument... Please expand it. Are you saying that the defination of a train is that you have to produce a passport, a baggage allowance and be screened?

What should one call an underground train instead?

If not please explain....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You know, Im fascinated by this argument... Please expand it. Are you saying that the defination of a train is that you have to produce a passport, a baggage allowance and be screened?

What should one call an underground train instead?

If not please explain....

No I'm not, I'm saying that is the advantages it has over mainland domestic flight.

An LUL train and a standard heavy rail train are not the same thing - heavy rail trains don't run off 4th rail for a start, they are not timetables per say, they are much more of a 'Metro' style service (I am aware it is not an actual Metro) than a heavy rail, bog-standard train service.

 

[paul1609]

You get a seat to yourself on a plane? No sitting next to strangers?
Try the Scottish executive ticket my employer will pay for that as it is cheaper than flying when all costs are considered. You get a meal included. As for your laptop why don't you buy a screen gaurd?

Sorry but the reality is theres no way that my employer or the travelagent they employ is going to spend £200 for London to Edinburgh plus a £60 anytime return up to London so I can sit in first class and have a 3 course meal. Im averaging around £160 return with Easyjet including 1 bag Gatwick to Edinburgh.
it is company policy that you do not use your laptop in a public place with or without screen protector so I dont work on the plane or the train.
Dont get me wrong Ive used the train up to Fyfe 5 times this year but the fact is that if I wasnt a rail enthusiast I.d fly everytime.

 

[Deerfold]

Well apart from stick your head out of the window and get it knocked off by a passing train, I struggle to think what you can do on a train that you can't do on a plane, oh apart from making mobile phone calls, which might be an advantage...

Break your journey?

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry but the reality is theres no way that my employer or the travelagent they employ is going to spend £200 for London to Edinburgh plus a £60 anytime return up to London so I can sit in first class and have a 3 course meal. Im averaging around £160 return with Easyjet including 1 bag Gatwick to Edinburgh.
it is company policy that you do not use your laptop in a public place with or without screen protector so I dont work on the plane or the train.
Dont get me wrong Ive used the train up to Fyfe 5 times this year but the fact is that if I wasnt a rail enthusiast I.d fly everytime.

From where you live that is hardly surprising. On the journey I need to do when you include taxi to the airport. Train to London and airfare it is hard to keep the total cost below £200. The taxi to the airport is £40 each direction alone!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You know, Im fascinated by this argument... Please expand it. Are you saying that the defination of a train is that you have to produce a passport, a baggage allowance and be screened?

What should one call an underground train instead?

If not please explain....

Glass house and stones? You have made many bizarre claims in your argument and have not backed up a single on. So please tell me what this mythical airline that does London city to Edinburgh with 100% timekeeping record, business class and cheaper returns in business class than £199 is? Perhaps with links to some stats to prove it is not just part of your imagination? We are waiting! We have given many examples of how to enjoy rail travel and our verifiable opinions of why we prefer it to flying.

 

[LE Greys]

The CAA do publish some statistics regarding airline punctuality, both scheduled and charter.

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=12&fld=2010

Not for the faint of heart as there are 5135 rows of data for July alone but the information, or at least some of it, is out there.

Edit: There is also a PDF version available too.


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/July_2010_Punctuality_Statistics.pdf

FYI Edinburgh is on page 166.

Reporting, FYI, 78% on time, an increase of 2% over the year before (all figures for domestic flights - so a true comparison with rail). Heathrow was 74%, Gatwick 67%, London City 83% and Aberdeen 82%. Now, that was early to 15 mins late, railway PPM figures require maximum 10 mins late for inter-city and maximum 5 mins late for everything else (although inter-city is the only true comparison for flights).

Now, this isn't brilliant, but I've found a link showing a half-decent set of punctuality data http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5737.aspx. If anyone finds a more thorough breakdown, please post. Still, for comparative routes (although not up-to-date) in 2008/9, East Coast (then NXEC) showed 86.9%, Virgin 80%, FGW 90.5% and XC 90.1% (c2c was 95.3%, but is not a fair comparison). Looks like rail is ahead here.

As for your preferences, I happen to prefer travelling by rail, because I find it more comfortable and more convenient, not to mention the fact that the food is usually better. I like flying every now and then, because I like the experience of flying or I'm in a major hurry to get somewhere over 1,000 miles away (that tends to be the point where air has a definite advantage). However, that's just the way I like to do it, and others have every right to disagree.

 

[scotsman]

Oh well. Going off-topic for a bit, at least time-keeping on air and rail is reported reasonably.

Here's Caledonian MacBrayne's lateness guide.

(b) “On Time” is defined as arriving within 5 minutes of the published arrival time on routes with a crossing time of less than one hour, or arriving within 15 minutes of the published arrival time on routes with a crossing time of one hour or more.
(c) “Level 1 Lateness” is defined as arriving between 5 and 10 minutes after the published arrival time on routes with a crossing time of less than one hour or arriving between 15 and 30 minutes after the published arrival time on routes with a crossing time of one hour or more.
(d) “Level 2 Lateness” is defined as arriving in excess of 10 minutes after the published arrival time on routes with a crossing time of less than one hour, or arriving in excess of 30 minutes after the published arrival time on routes with a crossing time of one hour or more.
In terms of punctuality (b), (c) and (d) above are applied after taking into account any knock-on delay from the previous sailing. Caledonian MacBrayne is subject to penalty on all cancellations, Level 1 lateness and Level 2 lateness...

Ok, they are a ferry company and they do do cracking bacon rolls