Scotsman Train V Plane Challenge

[The Barlow Boy]

I've just spent some little time on several websites including Nationalrail, British Airways and Traveline as well as Streetmap to ascertain a few figures.
Let us imagine our intrepid pair walk out of the front door of the hotel at 09.00.
The rail person would walk along to Waverley, settle himself down in the 09.30to King's Cross and, all being well, arrive in King's Cross at 14.10. From King's Cross he takes the tube to Liverpool street arriving there at about 14.35 and takes a ten mimute walk to the Gherkin arriving at about 14.45.
Meanwhile, our intrepid aviator would walk along North Bridge and catch the 09.12 bus to the airport and, all being well, arrive there at 09.44. Add ten minutes for traffic and another five for unforseens and he's at the airport at 10.00. He now checks-in and at the appropriate time boards the 11.10 flight to London City Airport and, all being well, arrives at London City Airport at 12.30. He disembarks walks to the DLR station and travels to Tower Gateway disembarking there for a ten mimute walk to the Gherkin arriving at about 13.15.
I've not allowed for train failure/plane going technical, signal failures/air traffic control problems, wires down at Huntingdon/fog over the city etc/etc.

 

[MCR247]

A) I would leave more time for that for check-in
B) I really doubt that it would take 30 minutes from leaving the plane to arriving at Tower Gateway.

I feel to make it a really fair test, it would have to be done more than once, that way an average time can be worked out

 

[jon0844]

Sod it. It's clear we've lost the argument and are all pro-rail (let's ignore all those threads having a go at inefficiencies, problem staff, stupid ticketing rules etc).

I've decided I'm going to fly to work on Monday. Instead of my 38 minute train ride, which is supposedly doomed before it starts - as all trains are late - I will fly instead. I hope the wind is blowing in the right direction!

 

[Mojo]

The new tax comes in on Nov 1, 2010 Jon, some info here Page 4 for the amounts

I've always thought it strange that APD rates are higher for those doing longer distances, for which there is unlikely to be a suitable alternative. Surely APD rates should be the other way around, with lower rates for the higher distances and higher rates for the domestic & European flights.

 

[Metroland]

A) I would leave more time for that for check-in
B) I really doubt that it would take 30 minutes from leaving the plane to arriving at Tower Gateway.

I feel to make it a really fair test, it would have to be done more than once, that way an average time can be worked out

I think the other thing is it depends if you are lucky enough to get to City, which is a very expensive business airport served by, on the whole, small planes. For example, the London-Edinburgh service is made up of 16 flights, of 35 seater planes. This is 455 available seats on a weekday - one train load. At weekends, there is just 3 flights, less than 100 seats. The majority of the tickets are priced at £100-200 one way, that's £200 - £400 return.

Most people flying would be going to Heathrow, Stansted, Luton and Gatwick. I would say Heathrow is pretty close to the rail time (the one used on the BBC race) but even that's a business airport, which would attract quite hefty fares. The low cost airlines, where you would get anywhere near the rail advanced prices, would be flying mostly to Luton, Gatwick and Stansted, it should be possible for rail to beat the times from these, depending exactly where you are going.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Sod it. It's clear we've lost the argument and are all pro-rail (let's ignore all those threads having a go at inefficiencies, problem staff, stupid ticketing rules etc).

I've decided I'm going to fly to work on Monday. Instead of my 38 minute train ride, which is supposedly doomed before it starts - as all trains are late - I will fly instead. I hope the wind is blowing in the right direction!

Please, accept that for journeys up to about 200 miles rail will generally be quicker, above that it starts to get more marginal. I've posted just about the most careful and logical scenario for a train/'plane journey from Edinburgh to London using times posted and available on public websites being fairly generous with the transit times. MCR247, a one hour check-in is more than generous for an internal flight, I've done Gatwick - Glasgow several times with Easyjet on a fifteen minute check in with hand baggage.
Accept too that I'm not in any way shape or form anti rail or pro air. I'm just looking at a theoretical journey as dispassionately as possible.

 

[Failed Unit]

Gatwick & easy jet. Shiver goes down my spine my average delay for this combo is 2 hours. Easy jet always blame air traffic control but on the days I used the no other airlines delays were as bad.

I also find it odd that air duty is going up so much on long distance routes where no alternative does exist.

In terms of business travel unfortunately people still only get one days notice to travel to London. By rail you know the fare will never be more than £200 if you book the night before travel and that gives you an open return. By air I normally find it getting above £400 when transit too and from the airports are included. The rail ticket includes meal and underground zones 1 &2. I could not justify the cost of air even if I wanted to fly for such a same potential time saving. Which from my flying peers experience never materialises. On last week we finished a meeting near blackfriars at 1600. I was home by 2200. The air traver was still at Heathrow with a late flight.

On a side track. How do people consider sleeper v air? Of course the sleeper is much slow. But you don't need to worry about getting up or fog which hits the morning flights. I prefer the sleeper myself but I would be lying to claim it was a good sleep. Just seems less hastle to me and the 0700 arrival into London is good and the shower and more relaxing start wins to me. Of course the fare is a big plus. £166 is a lot cheaper than either a hotel or red eye flight. I can see the sleeper surviving when the mk3 stock expires.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh just to be clear why some chose Heathrow over city or gatwick from blackfrairs. One word price. The company no longer allows us to use easyjet when an alternative exists because of poor timekeeping during the summer.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The last time I travelled to Glasgow from Gatwick I booked the ticket at about 16.00 the day before the flight (07.45 departure). I seem to recall it was in the region of £88. It certainly left and arrived on time. I used an aeroplane as I had to be there before 12.00 and no train could have got me there by then. I don't care for sleepers much, I can never sleep properly on them.

 

[paul1609]

Most people flying would be going to Heathrow, Stansted, Luton and Gatwick. I would say Heathrow is pretty close to the rail time (the one used on the BBC race) but even that's a business airport, which would attract quite hefty fares. The low cost airlines, where you would get anywhere near the rail advanced prices, would be flying mostly to Luton, Gatwick and Stansted, it should be possible for rail to beat the times from these, depending exactly where you are going.

I reckon Gatwick is probably quicker for the City than Heathrow. You have thameslink 4tph to London Bridge journey time 30 mins. Its a 15 min walk or bus ride over London Bridge to the Gerkin

 

[Failed Unit]

The last time I travelled to Glasgow from Gatwick I booked the ticket at about 16.00 the day before the flight (07.45 departure). I seem to recall it was in the region of £88. It certainly left and arrived on time. I used an aeroplane as I had to be there before 12.00 and no train could have got me there by then. I don't care for sleepers much, I can never sleep properly on them.

But that is for the flight alone. I don't know your ultimate journey you may live within walking distance of the airport. As I have previously highlighted it would personally cost me £40 to get to the airport by taxi. No public transport option before a 0900 flight to give me a safe checkin. Likewise I think £10 the other end so the flight isn't cheap any more. £108 for an off peak return 5 minutes before departure in standard. Virgins first train from Glasgow arrives 0908. Many arrive before midday. However for many areas of Glasgow and West coast it is easier to get to the airport than the station and for many you still need a taxi to get trains before 7am
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I reckon Gatwick is probably quicker for the City than Heathrow. You have thameslink 4tph to London Bridge journey time 30 mins. Its a 15 min walk or bus ride over London Bridge to the Gerkin

I would agree and Gatwick is improving since baa sold it!

 

[paul1609]

But that is for the flight alone. I don't know your ultimate journey you may live within walking distance of the airport. As I have previously highlighted it would personally cost me £40 to get to the airport by taxi. No public transport option before a 0900 flight to give me a safe checkin. Likewise I think £10 the other end so the flight isn't cheap any more. £108 for an off peak return 5 minutes before departure in standard. Virgins first train from Glasgow arrives 0908. Many arrive before midday. However for many areas of Glasgow and West coast it is easier to get to the airport than the station and for many you still need a taxi to get trains before 7am
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I would agree and Gatwick is improving since baa sold it!

Realistically since your location is Lincolnshire I cant see that youd fly London to Scotland very often anyway

 

[Metroland]

If you look at the modal shares the changeover seems to happen around the 300 mile mark.

For example,

London-Birmingham, Nottingham, Southampton, Norwich, Liverpool, Bristol, Exeter: No flights

London - Paris, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Brussels, Plymouth: Some flights, rail majority modal share >65%

London - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Southampton-Glasgow: Many flights, rail modal share 0%

In other words, for the vast majority of UK regional and intercity trips rail is the mode of choice. Controversially, HS2 is proposed only as far as Leeds and Manchester on the west side of the country, where rail is already dominant. And this will only knock marginal times off the Scottish times, so there will always be a place for air on the Scottish routes.

You also get odd cross country trips like Norwich-Manchester, and Exeter - Leeds, where there is a rail service, but it's comparatively slow. However, the air route can only support a couple of planes a day, because there is a limit of the numbers flying between those sorts of places, whereas rail can offer greater frequency because it's serving intermediate settlements.

 

[paul1609]

If you look at the modal shares the changeover seems to happen around the 300 mile mark.

For example,

London-Birmingham, Nottingham, Southampton, Norwich, Liverpool, Bristol, Exeter: No flights

London - Paris, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Brussels, Plymouth: Some flights, rail majority modal share >65%

London - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Southampton-Glasgow: Many flights, rail modal share 0%

In other words, for the vast majority of UK regional and intercity trains, rail is the mode of choice. Controversially, HS2 is proposed only as far as Leeds and Manchester on the west side of the country, where rail is already dominant. And this will only knock marginal times off the Scottish times, so there will always be a place for air on the Scottish routes.

You also get odd cross country trips like Norwich-Manchester, and Exeter - Leeds, where there is a rail service, but it's comparatively slow. However, the air route can only support a couple of planes a day, because there is a limit of the numbers flying between those sorts of places, whereas rail can offer greater frequency because it's serving intermediate settlements.

Id agree but where the journey involves a cross London transfer you can probably cut 100 miles off that. Gatwick to manchester flights arent full of businessmen theyre full of families connecting to other flights and grannies from Eastbourne who are scared of crossing London.
Their typical journey will be taxi to the airport, flight to manchester where they will be picked up by family to spend a week with the grandchildren in cheshire etc

 

[Metroland]

Indeed, although I guess Brighton - Manchester is nearer 300 miles. The Airlines in the UK are very lucky to have a complete set of airports that ring London, which to my knowledge is fairly unique. Meaning Gatwick is fairly attractive to those on the South coast, whereas if only Stansted and Heathrow existed, they might be more inclined not to fly.

No wonder the UK flies more per head than any other place in the world. Being an island helps too, so again, Northern Ireland flights will always exist.

This is why they didn't do themselves any favours arguing for Heathrow expansion, and running very short flights, which are probably not that profitable anyway. It's a bit of a PR gaff, when there are alternatives.

I suspect many would welcome HSR improvements, so people can get to airports and they can concentrate on the more lucrative medium and long haul stuff where very little competition exists between other forms of transport.

Indeed, again, rail privatisation was based on airlines, to get competition into the market. Yet, I would argue rail has more competition, from cars, trucks, planes, buses, ferries, coaches than maybe any other form of travel.

 

[Failed Unit]

Realistically since your location is Lincolnshire I cant see that youd fly London to Scotland very often anyway

I travel between London and Edinburgh twice a week. My office has been Glasgow since 2004 but my time was split between there and London. I moved from Lincs last year just havent changed my location. Haven't flown since last year got fed up of the delays. Waiting 1 hour just to clear security at Gatwick was the last straw. It was so bad people were getting fast tracked to avoid missing flights. So yes I am very familiar with the pros and cons of both modes on the route. Had big delays on both but as per previous posts rail looks after you and you have delay repay as well.

 

[At_traction]

A) I would leave more time for that for check-in

So 2 hours+ for a trip going against inbound commuter traffic (ie. less so outbound) and a domestic flight check-in (which could have been done already online)? That's pretty generous, I'd say. That is against a train that pretty conveniently leaves only half an hour after the start of competition.

B) I really doubt that it would take 30 minutes from leaving the plane to arriving at Tower Gateway.

But in this scenario the flier still would have won by more than double the amount I've "bet" myself. The work productivity during the trip is of course another matter altogether...

I feel to make it a really fair test, it would have to be done more than once, that way an average time can be worked out

Exactly. There are just so many moving parts that can affect the result.

 

[Failed Unit]

That's pretty generous, I'd say. That is against a train that pretty conveniently leaves only half an hour after the start of competition.

Which isn't that unrealistic if they start between 10am and 1230. I suspect they will be on the 1130 somehow!

 

[At_traction]

Which isn't that unrealistic if they start between 10am and 1230. I suspect they will be on the 1130 somehow!

And to be on the safe side, the flight would be in that case the 13:50 or 14:20 one!

Flight:
Takeoff 14:30 - in LCY pattern 15:50 - delayed landing due to traffic - at terminal 16:05 - DLR leaving 16:15 - at Bank DLR 16:40 - at 3 St. Mary Axe (what the f*** is that for an address) with all that obstacle course trying to first reach the Bank LU concourse from the DLR, 16:50
(or with the 13:50 takeoff, 16:20)

Train:
Leaving EDB 11:30 - arrive at KGX 16:00 - Metropolitan et al leaving 16:10 - at Liverpool St. Underground 16:20 - at the Axe, breathless but... 16:25

So, there you have it. Absolutely conclusive. The thread can be ended.

 

[Failed Unit]

QED

 

[rb311]

A few more issues which need attention:

Only 35 seater aircraft... Well that is not the case. London City - Edinburgh is served by Cityjet and BA Cityflyer, who respectivly operate 95 seaters and 70 or 98 seater aircraft.

Regarding the position of airports around London. What may I ask came first? The people or the airports...

As to comparisons, Paris is in much the same position with CDG to the North and ORY to the south.

Leaving more time for check in. If you check in online there is no need to, unless you want to go shopping etc

And the likelihood of getting stuck in a holding pattern into London City in the middle of the afternoon, and for that matter anytime outside the peak arrival between 7 and 9 in the morning,is highly remote...

 

[jon0844]

London City is not congested because there are relatively few flights. So, surely if you prefer flying, you should be happier that many people will take the train?

I used to fly from Stansted when it was minute, and now you can have all the same delays as Heathrow. It's no longer a nice little airport, although the security is now much better. Shame it takes an age to get back in to the country, and baggage is slow if you've flown with a low cost airline and they've bunched up.

 

[Failed Unit]

Regarding the position of airports around London. What may I ask came first? The people or the airports...

The airports?

Leaving more time for check in. If you check in online there is no need to, unless you want to go shopping etc

From my experience checking in even with baggage is not long on a decent airline. It is passing through security that takes the time. Again never had a problem a city but Edinburgh on the other hand varies. Sometimes quick others very slow 40mins+ Please let Edinburgh be the Scottish airport BAA sell.

And the likelihood of getting stuck in a holding pattern into London City in the middle of the afternoon, and for that matter anytime outside the peak arrival between 7 and 9 in the morning,is highly remote...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes city is not likely to have restrictions Edinburgh does.

Let's imagine a race between Edinburgh and London St pancras.

Leave Edinburgh Waverley on bus about 30 mins.
Leave 1 hour to clear security and allow for a late bus. Sorry air fans I would not personally allow less time at Edinburgh for this.
Fly to Gatwick. Again city is a good airport but for this case I would suggest Gatwick is better. Flight about 1h30
Allow about 1h to get from the plane to St Pancras.

So on this slick and very bias to rail journey the flight would win. I totally accept that. Unfortunately from my experience which the stats back up delays on flights are very common.

 

[Metroland]

As to comparisons, Paris is in much the same position with CDG to the North and ORY to the south.

Not really, that's just two airports: Near London you have Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Southend, Gatwick, City and even Oxford is arguing now it's a London airport!

On top of that you have the business airports of Biggin Hill, Northolt and Farnborough.

So arguably 10 airports serving one city!

I'm still unsure about your fascination on this particular subject, when given a number of factors and constraints rail should be first choice for everything south of Newcastle to London, and a serious competitor for London-Edinburgh.

Or does Airline industry greed know no bounds, and the likes of certain low cost airline executives be unhappy unless were all flying from St Neots to Cambridge for a sandwich?

 

[jon0844]

Northolt is a very nice airport to fly from. I've done so quite a few times, and once you clear security at the front gate (literally, the front gate!) you can pretty much fly on your own terms. Security comes to you, and it's very relaxed.

Now, in that case, using one of these air 'taxis' is a whole different story and people with enough money can now enjoy a turn-up-and-go service by air.

What's more, I once flew to Sweden on a private jet and when we arrived, we were ushered through various corridors and rooms, and ended up landside in the car park! No customs and no passport control!!

That day told me that if you have enough money, you can bend the rules and a private jet would be the best way to smuggle goods.

 

[90019]

Again never had a problem a city but Edinburgh on the other hand varies. Sometimes quick others very slow 40mins+ Please let Edinburgh be the Scottish airport BAA sell.

They've put in a big new security bit at Edinburgh, which, last time I used it, does seem to have made it a bit faster now.

 

[rb311]

Not really, that's just two airports: Near London you have Heathrow,

Stansted, Luton, Southend, Gatwick, City and even Oxford is arguing now it's a London airport!

On top of that you have the business airports of Biggin Hill, Northolt and Farnborough.

So arguably 10 airports serving one city!

I'm still unsure about your fascination on this particular subject, when given a number of factors and constraints rail should be first choice for everything south of Newcastle to London, and a serious competitor for London-Edinburgh.

Or does Airline industry greed know no bounds, and the likes of certain low cost airline executives be unhappy unless were all flying from St Neots to Cambridge for a sandwich?

Well there are other airports around Paris, Le Bourget and Beauvais for example, but just between CDG and ORY there are more runways than LHR, LGW and STN put together.

As to northolt etc they only serve biz jets, with no formal pax operations.

As to airline industry greed? Err hello.. Airlines are private, unsubsidised companies which are (in the case of Lon-Edi) competing against highly taxpayer underwritten organizations.

I think airline executives would simply be happy with a level playing field, that's all. As to getting a sandwich in Cambridge I think I'd get in my car.

 

[flymo]

Well there are other airports around Paris, Le Bourget and Beauvais for example, but just between CDG and ORY there are more runways than LHR, LGW and STN put together.

So what, it's not the size that's important it's what you do with it that matters.
Hang on, I've heard that before somewhere.
LHR, LGW & STN handle about 20% more traffic than CDG & ORY combined and that is with only 4 runways not 7.

Anyway back to the challenge and it's going to be on 5th November at 9am when it starts. The blog is now updated and the fella doing the plane is flying via Heathrow.

 

[Failed Unit]

Starts at 0900. So that will be the 0930 train then not a very quick one but going via Heathrow is going to add on lots of delay chances. Gatwick would be the best airport in terms of getting to the Gerkin.

If rail wins I bet congestion at the airport or tube problems (rail issues) that is the cause. That is normally why I beat the airlines myself on that journey and why I have stopped flying domestic unless I need to connect with an international flight.

Oh rb311. East Coast may argue it doesnt have a level playing field with the tax it's passengers pay for travel on it's services to subsidised other parts of the network.

 

[flymo]

Well I guess the flight he will be on will be BA 1441 at 1035. This is an A319 with no business class seats according to the booking engine - Domestic only. Bit of a waste of money really, and time. This is due into Heathrow T5 at 1205. A better bet would have been BA Cityflyer CJ 8715 at 1110 which flies into London City at 1230. This should be an Embraer E70. Also no business class seats on board according to the booking engine, but a bit more convenient for the Gherkin perhaps.

 

[MCR247]

CityJet do have business class They published on the blog that they are going via LHR because that is the airport the majority of pax on that route use