ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Mingulay]

I could have told you that ages ago. Not only are the GWR sets only managing a measly 5000 miles between failures (half what the others achieve), it's blatantly obvious that they've offloaded the worst vehicles onto ScotRail and kept the best ones from themselves. Plus the power cars have had absolutely minimal work done on them.

It's absolutely farcical, and won't improve services at all - we'll be lucky to see any more of the things anytime soon, and they're likely to break down all the time.

I have to bow to those with the rail industry experience here. But with only one set delivered for whatever reason or blame you try to attribute to wabtec. If these very old power cars are unreliable as has been suggested. Added to the long delay to refurbish very old corroded carriages. The ultimate blame settles with Scotrail and transport Scotland. Following hard on the heels of delays in all the other “improvements” the PR machine at Scotrail needs recalibrated to reality ! The prospect of the older or rather Classic HST in service seems likely to underwhelm for years to come.

Add to that the effluent issue. It’s hard to maintain the Scotland’s best ever railway tag as your mantra.

And in reference to a poster above correctly reminding our southern friends that Scotland has a distinctive legal system and legislation. We do share a Uk common bond. Useless politicians . Don’t expect the duty Transport Minister in rotation in Scotland to solve anything. As useless as his English counterpart.

It’s very telling when your MSP and Transport manager in Scotland cant even acknowledge letters let alone reply to them confirms a total indifference to passengers only their jobs. I think you could write on the palm of your hand what the Transport minister and his department know about HST trains other than what Abellio sold to them as deliverable. It hasn’t !

 

[Highlandspring]

I have to bow to those with the rail industry experience here.

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Journeyman" isn't in the rail industry, let along anything to do with the ScotRail HST project.

 

[Mingulay]

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Journeyman" isn't in the rail industry, let along anything to do with the ScotRail HST project.

If referring to the collective contributions of those who are more knowledgeable than I not that one individual. Sorry if that was not clear

 

[Journeyman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Journeyman" isn't in the rail industry, let along anything to do with the ScotRail HST project.

I don't work for ScotRail but have worked in the rail industry since 1994, and a lot of what I do relates to rolling stock and franchise delivery.

 

[Northhighland]

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Journeyman" isn't in the rail industry, let along anything to do with the ScotRail HST project.

Maybe this mess needs some people involved who look at it a bit differently.

 

[Mingulay]

I don't work for ScotRail but have worked in the rail industry since 1994, and a lot of what I do relates to rolling stock and franchise delivery.

You no doubt welcome the feedback from customers and passengers like myself with an equally long period of being a rail user . I was really enthused about the intercity service and refurbished trains when they were announced. Equally so an improved electric service for me. And a new sleeper service. I’m still waiting as each false dawn passes.

 

[Highlandspring]

I don't work for ScotRail but have worked in the rail industry since 1994, and a lot of what I do relates to rolling stock and franchise delivery.

Please accept my apologies then!

 

[43096]

it's blatantly obvious that they've offloaded the worst vehicles onto ScotRail and kept the best ones from themselves.

Wrong. The decision as to what went to ScotRail was down to the owner and ScotRail, not GWR. At the time the decision was made, GWR weren’t keeping any so couldn’t “keep the best ones for themselves”.

It’s blatantly obvious you do not want the project to succeed. That’s fine, but at least don’t just make stuff up to “support” your argument.

 

[Deltic1961]

I'm pretty sure most people want the project to succeed, however there are realists who see some major flaws in the execution of it rather than listening to Scotrail's constant PR guff about the best ever railway etc.

Performance lately has been diabolical and I don't see it getting better any time soon.

 

[jimm]

I could have told you that ages ago. Not only are the GWR sets only managing a measly 5000 miles between failures (half what the others achieve), it's blatantly obvious that they've offloaded the worst vehicles onto ScotRail and kept the best ones from themselves. Plus the power cars have had absolutely minimal work done on them.

It's absolutely farcical, and won't improve services at all - we'll be lucky to see any more of the things anytime soon, and they're likely to break down all the time.

43096 has made clear the process by which sets have been allocated to Scotrail.

As for reliability, perhaps you might consider the duty cycles that GWR HSTs have been subjected to for decades now, which are not exactly what the train's designers had in mind in the early 1970s.

There is precious little long-distance cruising at speed between a limited number of stops as seen on the East Coast and much of XC's network - the GW sets have been doing things like stopping every 10 or 15 minutes at stations along the Cotswold Line, in Cornwall or South Wales, or doing short sprints from Reading to Didcot to Swindon, climbing up and down the Devon banks and the Cotswold and Malvern hills, etc.

All of which dishes out plenty of punishment to the trains and their equipment, so it really shouldn't be surprising that the GW fleet suffers more issues overall.

And no one held a gun to Abellio's head and forced them to take on HSTs.

 

[Mingulay]

Please accept my apologies then!

Well that's appreciated , but I would rather get a response from Alex Hynes, The Transport Minister and Keith Brown my MSP who I wrote too.

Firstly its courteous to respond ,secondly they are elected so have a duty to respond , thirdly they are paid to take the heat . Not you on their behalf, but again thanks.

 

[Mingulay]

I'm pretty sure most people want the project to succeed, however there are realists who see some major flaws in the execution of it rather than listening to Scotrail's constant PR guff about the best ever railway etc.

Performance lately has been diabolical and I don't see it getting better any time soon.

Indeed. Passengers want the improvements , passengers are not willing failure, far from it .They have put up with major disruption on and off the rail to get the benefits . Passengers were given undertakings from Ministers and Abellio. And if these undertakings are not fulfilled on time and to spec then its not reasonable to accuse passengers of willing failure to prove points , political or otherwise.

 

[GrimShady]

Is sending the non refurbished sets abroad for overhaul a possibility?

I doubt anyone on the continent would touch it to be honest?

 

[43096]

Well that's appreciated , but I would rather get a response from Alex Hynes, The Transport Minister and Keith Brown my MSP who I wrote too.

Firstly its courteous to respond ,secondly they are elected so have a duty to respond , thirdly they are paid to take the heat . Not you on their behalf, but again thanks.

I wasn’t aware that the ScotRail MD’s position was subject to election....

 

[Journeyman]

It’s blatantly obvious you do not want the project to succeed. That’s fine, but at least don’t just make stuff up to “support” your argument.

Fair enough, I'm happy to be corrected. However, your assertion that I actually want the project to fail is ridiculous. Of course I don't. What would that achieve?

Sadly, though, the evidence that the project is failing dismally is there in spades.

 

[Deltic1961]

The amount of hype surrounding the first HST journeys was insane from Scotrail. Not at any point did they tell people it was only one unit though.

 

[Journeyman]

The amount of hype surrounding the first HST journeys was insane from Scotrail. Not at any point did they tell people it was only one unit though.

It reminds me a bit of the episode of Bagpuss, where the mice claim to be making chocolate biscuits out of breadcrumbs and butterbeans. They've got a scam going with just one biscuit that they keep wheeling around on a cart.

 

[GrimShady]

It reminds me a bit of the episode of Bagpuss, where the mice claim to be making chocolate biscuits out of breadcrumbs and butterbeans. They've got a scam going with just one biscuit that they keep wheeling around on a cart.

Showing your age now old bean!

 

[Journeyman]

Showing your age now old bean!

I was born in 19*mumble mumble*.

 

[68000]

Well that's appreciated , but I would rather get a response from Alex Hynes, The Transport Minister and Keith Brown my MSP who I wrote too.

Firstly its courteous to respond ,secondly they are elected so have a duty to respond , thirdly they are paid to take the heat . Not you on their behalf, but again thanks.

Hynes is a Network Rail employee, since when do we elect them?

 

[Mingulay]

Hynes is a Network Rail employee, since when do we elect them?

Hynes is a Network Rail employee, since when do we elect them?

yes I know

the other two are elected , assumed that would have been clear , sorry

I think Hynes is a capable guy at least that's the impression I got , but will no doubt shortly move on as all these guys do .

 

[route101]

Is Scotrail past the point of no return ? Can they walk away from this ?

 

[Clansman]

Is Scotrail past the point of no return ? Can they walk away from this ?

"Is this a new low for the railways in Scotland?" - Jim White

 

[Mingulay]

Is Scotrail past the point of no return ? Can they walk away from this ?

I think they past that with the big PR launch of the one train, which I understand had a minor breakdown . Or less publicly a long time ago as they appear to have no other rolling stock options. Put all their eggs in one basket of this refurb of HST .

 

[Class37.4]

I’ve never been a fan of this project but looking at the refurbished set on you tube I was quite impressed. The key question of course will be reliability and wabtec ability to get these trains out, you got to say that as a minimum wabtec need to turn out out at least another 14 sets before the end of 2019 and of course that would still be well short of the total required, that would equate to 1 per month which you would think ought to be possible but of course from what we have seen so far it doesn’t look promising.

 

[Mingulay]

I’ve never been a fan of this project but looking at the refurbished set on you tube I was quite impressed. The key question of course will be reliability and wabtec ability to get these trains out, you got to say that as a minimum wabtec need to turn out out at least another 14 sets before the end of 2019 and of course that would still be well short of the total required, that would equate to 1 per month which you would think ought to be possible but of course from what we have seen so far it doesn’t look promising.

It does look great that one set . But there seems to be 2 issues which from those who are more knowledgeable , the pace of carriage refurbs , the endurance /reliability of the old power cars

If they get there with the carriages eventually , but the power cars prove to be less than reliable , is there the flexibility to source 68 locos without too much adaptation of the refurbished coaches to haul them ? Or are the carriages bespoke to the power cars where they join with the passage? So cant have one without the other ?

 

[mullac30]

Scotrail are "hoping" for the next set by December, that's 4 months per set, and production hasn't ramped up significantly since the first delivery to GWR in March. It's starting to worry me if the production rate will ever increase, as at this rate the last of the 27 sets will be delivered in November 2027! If this does not improve significantly, Scotrail will have no choice but to at least partially cancel the program in its current form before time runs out at the end of 2019.

 

[gingertom]

Scotrail are "hoping" for the next set by December, that's 4 months per set, and production hasn't ramped up significantly since the first delivery to GWR in March. It's starting to worry me if the production rate will ever increase, as at this rate the last of the 27 sets will be delivered in November 2027! If this does not improve significantly, Scotrail will have no choice but to at least partially cancel the program in its current form before time runs out at the end of 2019.

what's plan "B" though? There's no stock with CET toilets available and we will be at the back of the queue for any new build.

 

[hexagon789]

A few years ago I was in an unrefurbished 156 with a vacuum toilet system- there was a, new looking, sign asking users not to flush in the station. I assumed they did not install a vacuum system to jet blast the deposits onto the track.

I suspect the sign dated from when some, but not all, of the trains had upgraded toilet systems- it is better that customers don't flush in the station if some of the fleet have direct discharge toilets.

That's true, but even if ScotRail's fleet is pretty much entirely tanked it doesn't explain the mess on the ballast and sleepers at stations such as Glasgow Queen Street and Glasgow Central.

 

[MatthewJ18]

What about the MK2 Fife commuter coaches?

110% sure they don't have retention tanks(don't quote me on that tho), mainly due to the multiple signs both on the door of the toilet and inside the toilet stating do not flush in the station/depot.

But its fife so who really cares