ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Bletchleyite]

It's hardly humane in the 21st Century though, is it?

You get fined £60 for pissing in the street but whole train loads of waste can be dumped in the open 18 hours a day ??????

In the UK it’s not the urine itself which causes the offence; pouring a bottle of urine away on the street (as lorry drivers do) isn’t an offence in that way. It’s indecent exposure that is the offence.

 

[Highlandspring]

In the UK it’s not the urine itself which causes the offence; pouring a bottle of urine away on the street (as lorry drivers do) isn’t an offence in that way. It’s indecent exposure that is the offence.

As this is a Scottish thread I should point out that under Scots Law the offence falls under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 to urinate or defecate in public “in such circumstances as to cause, or likely to cause, annoyance to any other person” and is nothing to do with indecent exposure. The law in England, Wales and Northern Ireland may be at variance but then they do everything differently there. There is no such thing as ‘UK law’.

 

[Journeyman]

This says it all really .....

"A spokeswoman for Wabtec said the company did not wish to comment on the issue"

Can't say I blame them, they're trying to protect their interests.

 

[Deltic1961]

But if everybody protects their interests no-one will ever find out what's happening.

Really the Transport Minister or Transport Scotland should be responsible for sorting this out but I doubt they will.

 

[hollyblue]

It seems to be farcical in all honesty. A set has been sitting in dundee for a while now, two repainted engines and some non refurb coaches. I spoke to a friend recently who works for SR and they are finding the whole situation almost laughable now with constant reliability issues and it now dawning that they’ve been given the absolute buckets from elsewhere.

 

[chuff chuff]

It seems to be farcical in all honesty. A set has been sitting in dundee for a while now, two repainted engines and some non refurb coaches. I spoke to a friend recently who works for SR and they are finding the whole situation almost laughable now with constant reliability issues and it now dawning that they’ve been given the absolute buckets from elsewhere.

There's actually two sets at Dundee,one a training train which sometimes doesn't make it out due technical problems the other I assume has been dumped there in preparation for December.

 

[Darandio]

For all those happy to reintroduce dumping I'll nip round and spray them and their houses.

There is nothing to reintroduce, it never went away in the first place. As your post also suggests an 'eye for an eye' mentality, I find it strange that your house is on the railway.

 

[Randomer]

In the UK it’s not the urine itself which causes the offence; pouring a bottle of urine away on the street (as lorry drivers do) isn’t an offence in that way. It’s indecent exposure that is the offence.

The offence would be technically just exposure (indecent exposure went out when the law changed in 2003) Also with the current law unless a person intended to cause alarm or distress whilst exposing themselves there is no offence, so urinating in a side street with no intent to be seen by another person for example would not be this offence.

However, urinating in public is a separate bylaw offence in most places (put in place by the local council or unitary authority). There was a stage when police officers were ticketing, reporting for summons or arresting under Section 5 POA but caselaw as far back as 2007 would make this a pretty dubious prosecution that the CPS are unlikely to run with.

Edit oops got sidetracked from my main point of aren't there already LNER HST sets running in Scotland that don't have retention tanks. Or is the issue that areas where the LNER sets don't run will now have waste being dumped?

 

[Highlandspring]

However, urinating in public is a separate bylaw offence in most places (put in place by the local council or unitary authority). There was a stage when police officers were ticketing, reporting for summons or arresting under Section 5 POA but caselaw as far back as 2007 would make this a pretty dubious prosecution that the CPS are unlikely to run with.

Public Order Act..? Unitary Authority..? Crown Prosecution Service..?

Bear in mind this is a thread about Scotland where none of those things exist. [/wildly off topic]

 

[Kite159]

The offence would be technically just exposure (indecent exposure went out when the law changed in 2003) Also with the current law unless a person intended to cause alarm or distress whilst exposing themselves there is no offence, so urinating in a side street with no intent to be seen by another person for example would not be this offence.

However, urinating in public is a separate bylaw offence in most places (put in place by the local council or unitary authority). There was a stage when police officers were ticketing, reporting for summons or arresting under Section 5 POA but caselaw as far back as 2007 would make this a pretty dubious prosecution that the CPS are unlikely to run with.

Edit oops got sidetracked from my main point of aren't there already LNER HST sets running in Scotland that don't have retention tanks. Or is the issue that areas where the LNER sets don't run will now have waste being dumped?

The only area where the LNER HSTs don't run will be Glasgow Queen Street towards Larbert, however I believe the unrefurbished 156s which also run that route on the Stirling stoppers don't have retention tanks (nor do the unrefurbished 158s).

Plus between Perth & Dundee, but that gets unrefurbished 158s every now and again.

 

[Darandio]

All this talk of committing an offence is hilarious. It's as if some believe Scotland is some sort of nirvana that banished this practice long ago and they don't want it back. The truth is that trains in Scotland are already still dumping **** all over the shop. All very unpleasant of course and i'd like to see the practice completely eradicated, but needs must and all that.

 

[scotraildriver]

The only area where the LNER HSTs don't run will be Glasgow Queen Street towards Larbert, however I believe the unrefurbished 156s which also run that route on the Stirling stoppers don't have retention tanks (nor do the unrefurbished 158s).

Plus between Perth & Dundee, but that gets unrefurbished 158s every now and again.

All the 156s and 158s have had tanks for a couple of years now - including unrefurbished ones.

 

[Kite159]

All the 156s and 158s have had tanks for a couple of years now - including unrefurbished ones.

Thanks, for some reason I was thinking only the refurbished units had tanks fitted as part of the refurbishment program.

 

[snookertam]

All this talk of committing an offence is hilarious. It's as if some believe Scotland is some sort of nirvana that banished this practice long ago and they don't want it back. The truth is that trains in Scotland are already still dumping **** all over the shop. All very unpleasant of course and i'd like to see the practice completely eradicated, but needs must and all that.

Which ones? All units currently in use in Scotland with the exception of LNER & XC HSTs have retention tanks. North of the central belt these trains only run about 4/5 times per day. ScotRail introducing unfurnished HSTs means there will be numerous trains running without any retention tanks. The union quite understandably are upset if, as they suggest, there has been a commitment from ScotRail to ensure they wouldn't be responsible for the practice as the implication is, as soon as it is inconvenient, the health and safety of the on track staff is secondary.

 

[Darandio]

Which ones? All units currently in use in Scotland with the exception of LNER & XC HSTs have retention tanks. North of the central belt these trains only run about 4/5 times per day. ScotRail introducing unfurnished HSTs means there will be numerous trains running without any retention tanks. The union quite understandably are upset if, as they suggest, there has been a commitment from ScotRail to ensure they wouldn't be responsible for the practice as the implication is, as soon as it is inconvenient, the health and safety of the on track staff is secondary.

The HST's as you mention, spreading crap up and down Scotland. Yet some people are acting as if Scotland has been rid of the menace for years.

 

[snookertam]

A solution will be to lock the toilets out on the non-refurbished HSTs so there won't be an issue.

Or non-running the non-refurbished HSTs and expecting everybody to crush-load onto a single 158 which has been sent in place due to stock shortage, leaving folk behind from the start.

No doubt grounds for the RMT to call yet another strike

Well, neither scenario would be the responsibility of their members, yet they would be on the receiving end of the consequences.

 

[Stoney1979]

What EXACTLY are the consequences of no retention tanks? Some of the media I've seen and heard today has described line staff being "sprayed with human excrement" or words to that effect, which sounds a bit dramatic and I don't see how that can physically happen anyway. However, does that happen, even occassionally? Or, at the other end of the scale, it is just some (albeit undesirable) jobbies etc. on the tracks?

I have every sympathy with the staff, and in this day and age it shouldn't be happening. Just trying to get to the facts of what actually does/doesn't happen and the worst case scenario when the toilets on the "classic" HSTs discharge.

 

[chuff chuff]

Try and imagine what happens to a jobbie when it hits the ground at high speed.

 

[hexagon789]

All the 156s and 158s have had tanks for a couple of years now - including unrefurbished ones.

I'm sure I saw an unrefurbished 156 with a "Please do not flush while the train is in the station sign" not that long ago.

 

[Stoney1979]

Try and imagine what happens to a jobbie when it hits the ground at high speed.

Fair enough, but are many or any staff actually sprayed with it? It would be good to hear from someone with first hand knowledge of the facts rather than relying on the BBC, Scotsman etc. version of reality.

 

[gsnedders]

Fair enough, but are many or any staff actually sprayed with it? It would be good to hear from someone with first hand knowledge of the facts rather than relying on the BBC, Scotsman etc. version of reality.

It's less about staff being sprayed by it, but rather working with things covered with it.

 

[Highlandspring]

In previous jobs working on track I have been sprayed by effluent on many occasions. You can see the cloud of mist coming from the underframe and when it hits you it feels like a shower of very fine drizzly rain. The received wisdom is to turn your back on passing trains. I’ve also walked though raw (recognisable) sewage on the track in low linespeed areas and places where trains stop regularly, such as station platforms, which is disgusting. Of course as a passenger your hands get contaminated when touching slam door handles and droplight windows.

 

[Stoney1979]

In previous jobs working on track I have been sprayed by effluent on many occasions. You can see the cloud of mist coming from the underframe and when it hits you it feels like a shower of very fine drizzly rain. The received wisdom is to turn your back on passing trains. I’ve also walked though raw (recognisable) sewage on the track in low linespeed areas and places where trains stop regularly, such as station platforms, which is disgusting. Of course as a passenger your hands get contaminated when touching slam door handles and droplight windows.

Thanks, it's a real problem then.

 

[hexagon789]

Of course as a passenger your hands get contaminated when touching slam door handles and droplight windows.

Someone pointed that out in an article many years ago, I've never opened an HST door myself since!

It is a disgusting practice, but one has to decide whether it's better to have trains to provide a service which drop waste or presumably short-forming elsewhere to cover.

 

[chuff chuff]

Used to get paid 'dirty' money when tying on or off from the toilet end.

 

[hollyblue]

Try and imagine what happens to a jobbie when it hits the ground at high speed.

I am a child.....I’m sitting giggling at this

 

[Kite159]

Which ones? All units currently in use in Scotland with the exception of LNER & XC HSTs have retention tanks. North of the central belt these trains only run about 4/5 times per day. ScotRail introducing unfurnished HSTs means there will be numerous trains running without any retention tanks. The union quite understandably are upset if, as they suggest, there has been a commitment from ScotRail to ensure they wouldn't be responsible for the practice as the implication is, as soon as it is inconvenient, the health and safety of the on track staff is secondary.

What about the MK2 Fife commuter coaches?

 

[mark-h]

I'm sure I saw an unrefurbished 156 with a "Please do not flush while the train is in the station sign" not that long ago.

A few years ago I was in an unrefurbished 156 with a vacuum toilet system- there was a, new looking, sign asking users not to flush in the station. I assumed they did not install a vacuum system to jet blast the deposits onto the track.

I suspect the sign dated from when some, but not all, of the trains had upgraded toilet systems- it is better that customers don't flush in the station if some of the fleet have direct discharge toilets.

 

[Class37.4]

While it’s not ideal putting into perspective the number of trains on Scotrail in this situation will be very small and only temporary, while of course in England and Wales there are still loads of trains still dumping on the tracks although this should change significantly in the next 12 months.

And frankly what’s the alternative other than short formed overcrowded services and/or bustitution. I doubt there is any alternate diesel stock available that has set toilets.

 

[Journeyman]

It seems to be farcical in all honesty. A set has been sitting in dundee for a while now, two repainted engines and some non refurb coaches. I spoke to a friend recently who works for SR and they are finding the whole situation almost laughable now with constant reliability issues and it now dawning that they’ve been given the absolute buckets from elsewhere.

I could have told you that ages ago. Not only are the GWR sets only managing a measly 5000 miles between failures (half what the others achieve), it's blatantly obvious that they've offloaded the worst vehicles onto ScotRail and kept the best ones from themselves. Plus the power cars have had absolutely minimal work done on them.

It's absolutely farcical, and won't improve services at all - we'll be lucky to see any more of the things anytime soon, and they're likely to break down all the time.