ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[cjmillsnun]

what will (after the work for Scotrail) still be 40 years old? Body/chassis, couplers, bogies?

Probably just the body/chassis, and even some of that will have been replaced as part of the corrosion remedial work.

Couplers will have been swapped out and the bogies will have been refurbished and wheelsets replaced many times.

 

[43096]

Source:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/new-scotrail-trains-english-hand-10188448



I'm guessing it must be a slow news day at Record HQ. For how long has this information been in the public domain?

And it is factually wrong as well. The HST fleet was introduced from 1976, and none of the power cars have reached 10 million miles yet

 

[47271]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03150/car_police_3150074a.jpg

...and Cortes is wrong on the Rovers as well. If he's referring to the SD1 - launched in 1976, so a precise contemporary of the HST - the police only ever used the V8 3500. Very fast and capable, if badly built by British Leyland. They even bear a passing resemblence to the HST...

 

[Starmill]

Would disagree with your assertion that the "pressure is not on" Routes out of Glasgow Queen street to Inverness and Aberdeen are pretty rammed, with people standing to Perth a common occurrence. These are not "tourist routes" but intercity services used by people to do business every day of the week. Obviously the HST introduction will improve capacity to a certain extent but these trains will still be busy. The four carriage units will not add a huge amount over the 170's as one coach will be first class, I struggle to see that being a success unless imaginative ticket pricing is introduced, the existing offering is not widely used on the 170's, and they only hold 12 ish.

So I agree with others, tourist seating plans will only be for charter trains. the point of the railway is to provide a cost effective fast way of moving people about. the HST 's will help better serve Inverness and Aberdeen and introduce long overdue extra capacity.

Well luckily Transport Scotland disagree with you, and think a balanced compromise between seating capacity and interior comfort are what is called for, rather than Best Western's squash them all in point. If it so happens that with a more express schedule and the increase in local services in the Central Belt there is still significant overcrowding on 4 car sets, it will be easy enough to have them all extended to 5 cars. It is clearly not easy to extend to 9 cars for services from London Paddington.

 

[jopsuk]

It can also have a slightly detrimental effect on the aerodynamics of the coaches if they are set in rather than having sliding plug doors.

700 Series Shinkansen
N700 Series Shinkansen
800 Series Shinkansen
E4 Series Shinkansen
E5 Series Shinkansen
E7 Series Shinkansen
W7 Series Shinkansen
E6 Series Shinkansen
H5 Series Shinkansen


That's just the ones in service.

 

[jingsmonty]

Source:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/new-scotrail-trains-english-hand-10188448



I'm guessing it must be a slow news day at Record HQ. For how long has this information been in the public
domain?

VERY slow news day, methinks! What a load of dribble - it's never been hidden that the HSTs aren't 'new' as such, personally, who cares how old they are if they provide a good service upgrade? Probably a much better travel experience than a lot of new rolling stock to boot..

 

[SpacePhoenix]

VERY slow news day, methinks! What a load of dribble - it's never been hidden that the HSTs aren't 'new' as such, personally, who cares how old they are if they provide a good service upgrade? Probably a much better travel experience than a lot of new rolling stock to boot..

They could have at least used a more up-to-date image of a GWR train, it must be getting onto 10 years since they last used that livery!

 

[Murph]

They could have at least used a more up-to-date image of a GWR train, it must be getting onto 10 years since they last used that livery!

That would assume that little details such as facts, journalism, and fairly reflecting reality were in any way important to the people responsible for the drivel. Once those factors are eliminated for convenience, it's obviously better to just use the first photo they can find that shows a good cloud of clag out of one of the power cars.

 

[GrimShady]

I disagree. I very much like the livery, and it is entirely appropriate for the national rail operator to carry the national flag. It's hardly without precedent: Amtrak trains bear the US flag, and airlines often have their national flag represented (Virgin Atlantic being a notable example of an airline bearing the Union Flag).

I don't have a problem with the stag and westie, but I think the old Scotrail livery is very dated and really shouldn't make a comeback in that form.

Why not the old livery are the best! Nobody would suggest that the GWR livery is too old, or the deep classic look of GNER.

You may as well say Intercity Livery is dated. It was smart then and its smart now unlike the various stupid modern liverys we have that looks like they should be on a can of Pepsi.

 

[Clansman]

Why not the old livery are the best! Nobody would suggest that the GWR livery is too old, or the deep classic look of GNER.

Because Scotrail have far more important priorities than to cater for wishful nostalgic minority.

Scotrail's responsibility with the HSTs is to ensure it's fit for the purpose it acquired them for, and to utilise it as much as possible to represent a true intercity network for Scotland, with its own new identity. Why on earth should they give a damn about the IC livery?

Nobody suggested the GWR and GNER liveries were old because they weren't 100% replicated and reused 20 years after being replaced. The IC livery however, has.

I don't want to sound brutal here but for the sake of reality, it's time to live in it. A tribute livery is fair enough as a one-off for a limited time, but to make it permanent again just defeats the purpose of creating a brand new identity for the routes they are going to serve up here

 

[jopsuk]

They could have at least used a more up-to-date image of a GWR train, it must be getting onto 10 years since they last used that livery!

I think First were pretty quick in adding the gold stripe to the initial livery? They took over in December 1998, not sure when the last stock was modified but I'd have thought it would have been within months. That photo is probably old enough to buy booze. Looking at how clean the train is, I'd guess at it being around launch though, so more like 20 years old.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think First were pretty quick in adding the gold stripe to the initial livery? They took over in December 1998, not sure when the last stock was modified but I'd have thought it would have been within months. That photo is probably old enough to buy booze. Looking at how clean the train is, I'd guess at it being around launch though, so more like 20 years old.

Yes, the utterly hideous "flying fag packet" livery was very quick to appear.

 

[cjmillsnun]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03150/car_police_3150074a.jpg

...and Cortes is wrong on the Rovers as well. If he's referring to the SD1 - launched in 1976, so a precise contemporary of the HST - the police only ever used the V8 3500. Very fast and capable, if badly built by British Leyland. They even bear a passing resemblence to the HST...

I beg to differ. Traffic divisions used the 3500, and latterly the Vitesse. In the Met and in West Yorkshire, Panda cars were 2600s. The Police SD1s were generally more reliable than the consumer ones, 1. Because they were maintained by Police garages rather than the awful BL Dealers, and 2. Because they were the ultimate in poverty spec, having wind up windows, and no central locking, therefore little to go wrong with the SD1's achilles heel, the electrics. This was reversed in later cars, as the Met in particular bought up the stock of unsold cars in 1986 at the launch of the Rover 800 (itself a well liked car amongst the various constabularies!) meaning they had cars with Electric Windows and other gizmos.

 

[GrimShady]

Because Scotrail have far more important priorities than to cater for wishful nostalgic minority.

Scotrail's responsibility with the HSTs is to ensure it's fit for the purpose it acquired them for, and to utilise it as much as possible to represent a true intercity network for Scotland, with its own new identity. Why on earth should they give a damn about the IC livery?

Nobody suggested the GWR and GNER liveries were old because they weren't 100% replicated and reused 20 years after being replaced. The IC livery however, has.

I don't want to sound brutal here but for the sake of reality, it's time to live in it. A tribute livery is fair enough as a one-off for a limited time, but to make it permanent again just defeats the purpose of creating a brand new identity for the routes they are going to serve up here

Hardly wishful nostalgia, one could have said that about wishing for GWR green to be reused again. It was our first national livery so there's no harm in using it again. The saltire livery is no different to the boring BR Blue/Grey era, seen as we're discussing a proposed livery then anything's up for discussion.

 

[Clansman]

Hardly wishful nostalgia, one could have said that about wishing for GWR green to be reused again. It was our first national livery so there's no harm in using it again. The saltire livery is no different to the boring BR Blue/Grey era. Seen as we're discussing a proposed livery then anything's up for discussion.

Each to their own.

As the HSTs will be given their own livery, it's clear that Scotrail are keen to give them their own identity in Scotland. Reinstating the IC livery defeats that purpose. Of course, there's no harm in it at all, but if you're wanting to create your own brand, it's just contradictory and emphasises their age - it'd only be a matter of time before the Record came knocking again!

 

[47271]

I beg to differ. Traffic divisions used the 3500, and latterly the Vitesse. In the Met and in West Yorkshire, Panda cars were 2600s. The Police SD1s were generally more reliable than the consumer ones, 1. Because they were maintained by Police garages rather than the awful BL Dealers, and 2. Because they were the ultimate in poverty spec, having wind up windows, and no central locking, therefore little to go wrong with the SD1's achilles heel, the electrics. This was reversed in later cars, as the Met in particular bought up the stock of unsold cars in 1986 at the launch of the Rover 800 (itself a well liked car amongst the various constabularies!) meaning they had cars with Electric Windows and other gizmos.

Interesting about the straight sixes getting used by the police, I'd never heard of that before. It was a rickety engine compared with the V8, so that no doubt brought its own maintenance challenges under heavy use.

He's still wrong on the 2000 though, which is where I started... [emoji38]

 

[Starmill]

700 Series Shinkansen
N700 Series Shinkansen
800 Series Shinkansen
E4 Series Shinkansen
E5 Series Shinkansen
E7 Series Shinkansen
W7 Series Shinkansen
E6 Series Shinkansen
H5 Series Shinkansen


That's just the ones in service.

Thanks for the paperweight. Now, if we could get back to Mark 3s...

 

[Highland37]

It might be the wrong place to ask (feel free to delete this) but is there any detail on the new timetable to Inverness to be operated by the HSTs?

 

[Clansman]

It might be the wrong place to ask (feel free to delete this) but is there any detail on the new timetable to Inverness to be operated by the HSTs?

Nothing major, just a basic outline of the patterns throughout the day.

*Hourly service to Perth, alternating at Edinburgh and Glasgow to create a 2 hourly service between the two.

*Regular extensions of Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen services to Inverness. And vice versa with Inverness to Aberdeen services.

Scotrail are also looking to introduce a seven-day working week timetable as well - so Southbound services from Inverness will drastically increase both in the form of HSTs and local DMU services.

 

[ld0595]

Source:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/new-scotrail-trains-english-hand-10188448



I'm guessing it must be a slow news day at Record HQ. For how long has this information been in the public domain?

Looks like Railengineer responded to the Daily Record accusations. Source

A reporter from the Scottish Sunday Mail called me last week. He had seen my recent Rail Engineer feature on ScotRail’s ‘new’ HST and wanted my comments for a piece he wished to write about these trains.

Transport Scotland had undertaken a consultation exercise to find out what the Scots wanted from their trains, to which the answer, for those travelling to Aberdeen and Inverness, was an East Coast HST, the requirement for an ‘HST equivalent’ had been written into the ScotRail franchise specification to which franchise winner, Abellio, responded with a commitment to provide HSTs. The work being done to provide refurbished HSTs is impressive.

When I researched my feature, I had been impressed so, when speaking to the reporter, I waxed lyrical about the benefits of these refurbished trains and explained why their age was not an issue, which he seemed to accept. He sent me an email to confirm that my positive quotes had been correctly recorded, and I was left thinking that his piece would be an upbeat item about these refurbished trains.

How wrong could I be? ‘Laughing stock – ScotRail order 40-year old InterCity 125s’ was the headline for the article. Yet two-thirds of the article consisted on my faithfully recorded positive quotes with further comment from ScotRail and Transport Scotland explaining the benefits of these trains.

The only negative comment was from Manuel Cortes, leader of the Transport Salaried Staffs Association, whose quote ‘You wouldn’t expect the police to drive a Rover 2000 and call it high powered today’ was featured in bold type.

Whilst it is perhaps a regrettable truth that such knocking copy sells newspapers, Manuel Cortes’ comments are disappointing. It is true that the rail industry is not perfect and it is right for Unions to highlight issues. However, rubbishing a good news project on which some of his members will be working doesn’t help the industry.

ScotRail’s ‘new’ HSTs will provide 40 per cent more seats on their intercity routes, which will no doubt soon be filled. Abellio is giving Scotland’s train passengers what they want. What’s not to like?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Who bluddy cares how old they are really!!!As long as they sort the bike storage thing and perhaps spare a thought for the many non tourists who will use these trains and are more interested in a decent seat than a view then theyl be fine. I still stick to my guns that they should be longer and that they are doing what all guises of scotrail have done since the year dot and provided too few seats/to little space but no, by and large these will be good and lets face it, anything, even possibly a pacer is better than the dismol 170 with again too few seats and all the tractive effort of a Highland Kirk Mouse moving a piano!

 

[ld0595]

even possibly a pacer is better than the dismol 170

Bold claim! Although I along with many others will not be too sorry to see the 170s go once they are replaced. The sooner the better.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And until that happy day, its hello VTEC/XC/Sleaper/Citylink/megabus/Nat X/hitching a ride in a white van for journeys from the Central belt to Aberdeen/the Highlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, if Scotland doesn't want them, I'm sure there are plenty of places in England they could go, and we could send Scotland some cast-off 150s or something

They really do look very good. And if they're successful, in 10-15 years they may be a step to something better still - something like the CAF TPE Mk5b stock or similar.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The new timetables and the offer of propper catering and other improvements will be very popular with everyone and so the future planning will need to be on a similar or even grander scale. I would hope that the MK5s find a 2nd home post Transpenine up north and if they are a success when new then TS would be wide to order some now for a phased introduction in the 2020s, particularly as I still do not believe that the HSTs will be delivered on time and given the speed at which TPE's are being built any delay in the delivery of the HST firstly to works and ultimatly into service will be the point where the questionof new LHCS vs refitted HSt's gets asked

 

[cf111]

Never, ever trust a tabloid journalist, especially those who work for the Record or the Sun.

 

[route:oxford]

Never, ever trust a tabloid journalist, especially those who work for the Record or the Sun.

And yet the public has to rely on them to expose wrong doing.

Hopefully one of them will take a look at the nonsense of trying to buy a ticket to Edinburgh Airport from the Central Belt.

A colleague has already received token compensation from Scotrail as an apology for their website being incapable of selling the correct ticket (after they initially advised there wasn't a problem).

Then there are the bizarre ticket charges where it is cheaper to buy a ticket from Perth to Edinburgh Airport than it is to buy one from Gleneagles - yet it's the same service...

Not just that, but whilst Fifers only have to pay a supplement of £4 (£16.50/EDA versus £12.50/EGY)to take them to Edinburgh Airport, passengers from Glasgow have to pay a supplement of £5.90 (£18.50/EDA versus £12.60/EDP) for their single tram journey - when the wak-up fare for a tram single is just £5.50.

 

[Blindtraveler]

How much of that is just Edinburgh Trams/TFE proffitearing though I wonder? Although the website thing lies firmly at Scotrails door

without going off topic I just wish some newspaper would print the facts as they are which in a nutshell is that Scotrails new trains will by and large be a vast improvement and passengers wanting to comment on the reduced bike storage or the randemly large numbers of tables should feed their thoughts back before the first oene goes into the works.

 

[InOban]

Many posters seem confused as to responsibility of Transport Scotland and Abellio Scotrail. Unlike the TOCs in England, it is my understanding that the trains, whether new or refurbished, are entirely decided upon by TS. The Saltire livery, the two bicycle spaces, the First class space, all TS.

If TS were to agree that 2bike spaces is inadequate on, say, the trains to the Highlands, then they can ask for them to be increased. However Abellio would require to be compensated for loss of income from the seats removed. Of course in their homeland, Abellio charge for bikes (hence the popularity of bike hire schemes), and if cyclists were prepared to pay for their bike, then things might be different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If TS were to agree that 2bike spaces is inadequate on, say, the trains to the Highlands, then they can ask for them to be increased. However Abellio would require to be compensated for loss of income from the seats removed. Of course in their homeland, Abellio charge for bikes (hence the popularity of bike hire schemes), and if cyclists were prepared to pay for their bike, then things might be different.

If they asked cyclists, they might find they *are* prepared to pay. But they don't want that really, as a payment creates a contract and expectations will be higher.

Same with seat reservations.