ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[dk1]

Not necessarily - a simple sliding door is, er, much simpler than a plug door.

Definatley doesn't stand up with my experience of working sliding as opposed to those fitted to 170 units. Those plug doors are unbelievably reliable.

 

[380101]

Definatley doesn't stand up with my experience of working sliding as opposed to those fitted to 170 units. Those plug doors are unbelievably reliable.

I don't doubt your experience. I've driven 380s for 5 years and never had a door problem. I think the main issue with the Mk3 bodies is that they were not all built exactly the same. I think there is issues with the location of internal crossmembers that would make it more costly to go the plug door route. If the sliding door runners are kept clear of debris then they should be reliable enough. Being electrically operated instead of air should make a difference aswell.

 

[47271]

I think the livery is okay as a bog standard contemporary style but falls into the same trap as all post BR attempts by making the power cars look too slow and upright.

The thing (the HST power car) is an acknowledged design classic in the original yellow-blue-yellow horizontal blocks as created by Kenneth Grange.

They really should have tried a version of this.

 

[edwin_m]

A sliding door generally slides into a pocket, which could be a source of problems such as corrosion and also takes up interior space and doesn't have a window (unless some kind of door-between-the-panes arrangement as on older Tube stock). Plug doors have none of these problems but the door has to move through a dogleg to insert itself into the opening. An external sliding door as on more recent Underground units would be out of gauge unless this part of the body was narrowed.

Speaking of gauge, it will be interesting to see how the "chamfer" on the corner of the Mk3 which keeps it in gauge is accommodated with a sliding door in this area. Hard to tell from the impressions posted up-thread but it looks like a uniform profile right up to the end of the coach. I was looking at the Sectional Appendix the other day and it appears the Chilternised Mk3s don't automatically retain all the route clearances they had before modification.

 

[Starmill]

A GW HST is not intended as a tourist device, though. Whilst they do indeed traverse some scenic routes, they are intended to move as many people as reasonably possible from here to there, which is ultimately the function of a train. Services passing that most scenic sea view of them all, Dawlish, are often rammed, just as the commuter services are at the London end. Half the trainload stood up and wedged into the aisles because there are half the number of seats, is not a pleasant way for anyone to travel.

Lots of nice bays of seats neatly lined up with the windows is simply neither a priority nor practical, except perhaps on charter stock. It would be lovely if we could have such sparsely loaded trains so as to make it more important, but we don't. The railway needs to carry people, and there are more and more of them turning up every year.

Well of course. But if the pressure were not on then I would expect the tourist appeal of the line to be taken into consideration. In Scotland, the pressure is not on in the way that it is on the mainline routes to London Paddington, and the tourist appeal is much greater. I think it's only right that this is considered. In future, as trains get longer and more of them can be run I would also like to see the comfort of passengers on Great Western routes looked after more. It remains to be seen if the Super Express Trains will provide it.

 

[380101]

A sliding door generally slides into a pocket, which could be a source of problems such as corrosion and also takes up interior space and doesn't have a window (unless some kind of door-between-the-panes arrangement as on older Tube stock). Plug doors have none of these problems but the door has to move through a dogleg to insert itself into the opening. An external sliding door as on more recent Underground units would be out of gauge unless this part of the body was narrowed.

Speaking of gauge, it will be interesting to see how the "chamfer" on the corner of the Mk3 which keeps it in gauge is accommodated with a sliding door in this area. Hard to tell from the impressions posted up-thread but it looks like a uniform profile right up to the end of the coach. I was looking at the Sectional Appendix the other day and it appears the Chilternised Mk3s don't automatically retain all the route clearances they had before modification.

The door will slide into a pocket within the body. There is room to do so in the vestibules. It will be curved in at the bottom as per 156 doors. It will also be set in slightly to allow for the taper at the coach ends.

 

[Starmill]

It can also have a slightly detrimental effect on the aerodynamics of the coaches if they are set in rather than having sliding plug doors.

 

[Northhighland]

Well of course. But if the pressure were not on then I would expect the tourist appeal of the line to be taken into consideration. In Scotland, the pressure is not on in the way that it is on the mainline routes to London Paddington, and the tourist appeal is much greater. I think it's only right that this is considered. In future, as trains get longer and more of them can be run I would also like to see the comfort of passengers on Great Western routes looked after more. It remains to be seen if the Super Express Trains will provide it.

Would disagree with your assertion that the "pressure is not on" Routes out of Glasgow Queen street to Inverness and Aberdeen are pretty rammed, with people standing to Perth a common occurrence. These are not "tourist routes" but intercity services used by people to do business every day of the week. Obviously the HST introduction will improve capacity to a certain extent but these trains will still be busy. The four carriage units will not add a huge amount over the 170's as one coach will be first class, I struggle to see that being a success unless imaginative ticket pricing is introduced, the existing offering is not widely used on the 170's, and they only hold 12 ish.

So I agree with others, tourist seating plans will only be for charter trains. the point of the railway is to provide a cost effective fast way of moving people about. the HST 's will help better serve Inverness and Aberdeen and introduce long overdue extra capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A sliding door generally slides into a pocket, which could be a source of problems such as corrosion and also takes up interior space and doesn't have a window (unless some kind of door-between-the-panes arrangement as on older Tube stock).

Not a problem on the Mk3 as there is a door-width space without a window (or with the bog window which can be blocked up with no real effect) anyway, as at both ends they have space for a bog and a luggage rack opposite.

(Two toilets per coach? What common sense is this! )

Speaking of gauge, it will be interesting to see how the "chamfer" on the corner of the Mk3 which keeps it in gauge is accommodated with a sliding door in this area. Hard to tell from the impressions posted up-thread but it looks like a uniform profile right up to the end of the coach. I was looking at the Sectional Appendix the other day and it appears the Chilternised Mk3s don't automatically retain all the route clearances they had before modification.

The Chiltern design is a full rebuild of the coach end to a different profile much more reminiscent of something like the Class 175/180. I think the sliding design requires less of a rebuild, hence why it's cheaper. Though I'm surprised you couldn't do a plug door of the same profile as the existing manual door - or even convert it into one.

 

[najaB]

It can also have a slightly detrimental effect on the aerodynamics of the coaches if they are set in rather than having sliding plug doors.

I believe this was discussed in the Class 800 thread - it has an effect but it's really not enough to make a noticeable difference in running costs.

Though I'm surprised you couldn't do a plug door of the same profile as the existing manual door - or even convert it into one.

I suspect the problem would be fitting the mechanism into the space available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the problem would be fitting the mechanism into the space available.

Possibly so. Possibly also the height of the old door isn't acceptable under modern standards - certainly I have to duck. The Chiltern doors are higher.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Im sure this has no doubt been asked before, but could the current doors no have just had a motor fitted and the droplight sealed shut?

 

[edwin_m]

Im sure this has no doubt been asked before, but could the current doors no have just had a motor fitted and the droplight sealed shut?

A motorised swing door would be dangerous because of the risk of striking people on the platform as it opened. I don't think the current door could be converted to sliding either, because of the way it wraps around into the coach end.

 

[najaB]

A motorised swing door would be dangerous because of the risk of striking people on the platform as it opened.

I suspect it would also present an unacceptable risk of crushing fingers as it closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A motorised swing door would be dangerous because of the risk of striking people on the platform as it opened. I don't think the current door could be converted to sliding either, because of the way it wraps around into the coach end.

Could probably be converted to plug, but would be very heavy indeed so would require a very strong mechanism.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A motorised swing door would be dangerous because of the risk of striking people on the platform as it opened. I don't think the current door could be converted to sliding either, because of the way it wraps around into the coach end.

Would the mechanism design that 442s use (the only other example of powered doors for Mk3s being the Chilternised ones) never be allowed now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the mechanism design that 442s use (the only other example of powered doors for Mk3s being the Chilternised ones) never be allowed now?

I think the doors are too narrow, being barely wider than Mk1 doors. (FWIW there are two different mechanisms used on 442s, the doors by the cabs are plug-sliding, while the end doors are swing-plug like most road coach doors which may well no longer be allowed as the upright pole rotates and the door swings quite wide of the body, though this mechanism is still the norm in the Netherlands and you can box the pole in as is done on the 158 which also uses this type of mechanism).

 

[47802]

Would the mechanism design that 442s use (the only other example of powered doors for Mk3s being the Chilternised ones) never be allowed now?

Would probably allowed but that's not a motorised swing door like what is being suggested is it!. Added to which the 442 doors are regarded as too narrow.

In any case clearly a more cost effective sliding door solution has been found so there isn't much to say really. I don't much like sliding doors as they may protrude in to seating area and you end up with narrower seats and possibly no window like 156's and 800's. But given its the toilet area on MK3's it should avoid that problem and clearly the Toilets are likely to require major mods anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, they won't cause any windows other than the unnecessary toilet window to be blocked in this implementation. Toilet windows were only really necessary in the days when carriage lighting and ventilation was unreliable. Even new homes often don't have windows in the bathroom these days, because pressure ventilation works pretty reliably.

 

[Clansman]

Anger at bike space cut on ScotRail's new long-distance trains

ScotRail is planning to halve the number of cycle spaces for passengers using intermediate stations on a new fleet of long-distance trains. Only two spaces will be provided in the trains' carriages between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Aberdeen/Inverness compared to four at present.

Only two bike spaces will be available in carriages for passengers using intermediate stations.The plans follow a proposed reduction in cycle spaces on the Glasgow-Oban line, which ScotRail is re-considering. Lothian cycle campaigners Spokes has launched a campaign against the proposed cuts to the refurbished 40-year-old InterCity 125 High Speed Trains (HST).

It said extra spaces could be created by converting some of the toilets, that are due to be left locked and unused. ScotRail previously pledged space for "at least 20 cycles" in its new long-distance trains.

It said: "The bike space promise has gradually been whittled down - and now we discover that for many journeys there will be fewer spaces even than at present. "Meanwhile some redundant toilets will be locked away, just transporting air - surely an opportunity to greatly increase bike spaces for trips between intermediate stations.

"Bike/rail capacity to the Highlands is a major concern, not just for commuting and leisure cyclists, but also for the tourist industry. "Surely the power car door could be unlocked when necessary, at least at main stations such as Perth." Spokes said ScotRail had told MSPs in 2015 to expect “at least 20 cycles” per train in the new fleet. However, it said there would now be space for just two bikes on a vertical-hanging rack, converted from a toilet in one of the coaches.

There will be space for three more in each of the luggage compartments beside the power cars at either end of the four and five-carriage trains, for end-to-end journeys, such as Edinburgh to Inverness, but these would not be accessible at intermediate stations. Scottish Labour transport spokesman Neil Bibby, who has taken a close interest in ScotRail's performance, said: "At a time when we should be promoting cycling, reducing bike spaces on these new trains would be a retrograde step.

"The public were promised action on overcrowding and more space for cyclists. "The promises that have been made to passengers should be kept." ScotRail said its plans for the six spaces in the power car storage area were under review. A spokeswoman said:

"We have to balance a number of demands when planning space in our trains and want to accommodate bikes as far as possible. "We’re exploring a number of options in advance of the HST fleet arriving in Scotland.”

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...scotrail-s-new-long-distance-trains-1-4413423

 

[47271]

I'm usually the first to ridicule Dalton and Bibby and their feeble respective attempts at transport journalism and spokespersoning, and I'm no cyclist myself, but there does seem to be a reasonable point here.

Wasn't it one of Abellio's initial big ideas for Scotrail that we were supposed to be merrily pedalling to and from every station by now as if we're all Dutch?

I'm not being serious, but have they just realised that we're Scottish and generally can't be a***d with that sort of healthy behaviour, and they've given up?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dutch on-train cycle carriage provision is not large, and the fee is quite hefty - their concept is that you ride to the station, not that you put your bike on the train. The bike-on-train feature is mainly just provided for positioning your bike where it is needed (e.g. having one at each end) and for rescue.

On train cycle carriage provision is much better in the UK than the Netherlands, and is free to boot.

 

[GusB]

I'm not being serious, but have they just realised that we're Scottish and generally can't be a***d with that sort of healthy behaviour, and they've given up?

Next they'll be trying to get us to eat fewer pies and consume more fruit... :roll:

What is the main issue preventing access to the power car spaces at intermediate stations? Is it simply that these compartments have to be kept locked and it's too time-consuming for the guard to deal with?

 

[jopsuk]

Dutch on-train cycle carriage provision is not large, and the fee is quite hefty - their concept is that you ride to the station, not that you put your bike on the train. The bike-on-train feature is mainly just provided for positioning your bike where it is needed (e.g. having one at each end) and for rescue.

On train cycle carriage provision is much better in the UK than the Netherlands, and is free to boot.

that's the difference between having about 2% of the population cycling and basically everyone cycling. They have a total ban before 0930am. The "hefy fee" is a €6 day ticket (Belgium goes for €5 single/€8 day ticket) for the bike.

Various places up the Highland Mainline are popular (and becoming more so) for leisure cyclists. On the West Highland, for Mountain Biking Corrour is quite popular- get the early train out of Glasgow, ride to Fort Wiliam and get the train back home- or take the risk, take the train all the way to Fort William and hope to catch a return at Corrour.

With the HSTs, the issue is indeed that the power car luggage stores need a member of staff to open and close them- not just for safety, but it is good for security too.

 

[Altnabreac]

It's sort of a reasonable point and not ideal by any means but the 6 bike spaces in the power cars do make up for the overall loss of spaces to a fairly large extent. A lot of the pressure on the HML is from long distance cyclists doing either LEJOG or shorter touring routes in the Highlands out of Inverness. These can all be accommodated in the Power Car provision.

For me I think if they had a slightly more flexible policy that also allowed access to the power car provision at selected key intermediate locations that would probably be enough.

Maybe just Perth, Stirling, Dundee and Aviemore. That would cover nearly all the places with high demand for bike usage and still leave the Guard free to not worry about bikes for most of the journey.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Could they not just convert a part of a carriage like they do for luggage on the xpt's?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could easily double the spaces - there are I think two disused toilets per set, only one of which is being converted to bike space.

 

[59CosG95]

It's sort of a reasonable point and not ideal by any means but the 6 bike spaces in the power cars do make up for the overall loss of spaces to a fairly large extent. A lot of the pressure on the HML is from long distance cyclists doing either LEJOG or shorter touring routes in the Highlands out of Inverness. These can all be accommodated in the Power Car provision.

For me I think if they had a slightly more flexible policy that also allowed access to the power car provision at selected key intermediate locations that would probably be enough.

Maybe just Perth, Stirling, Dundee and Aviemore. That would cover nearly all the places with high demand for bike usage and still leave the Guard free to not worry about bikes for most of the journey.

Stations that are long enough to take a 2+5 HST and on a loop (e.g. Kingussie) may also be viable places to remove bikes; if the train is being held at the station it would seem opportunistic to get bikes out in the timeframe before the oncoming train arrives in the adjacent loop.

 

[Clansman]

A simpler solution would be to develop an electronic reservation system for bikes for access both on board and at stations - so you can delegate the duties to station staff for removing/adding bikes in the power cars.

For example;

Stirling, Perth, Pitlochry, Kingussie, Aviemore, Elgin, Inverurie, Dundee, Leuchars

All of the stations above are staffed and most are key interchange points of which trains normally sit for at least 3 minutes at a time upon arrival - sufficient time in my opinion.

 

[GusB]

A simpler solution would be to develop an electronic reservation system for bikes for access both on board and at stations - so you can delegate the duties to station staff for removing/adding bikes in the power cars.

For example;

Stirling, Perth, Pitlochry, Kingussie, Aviemore, Elgin, Inverurie, Dundee, Leuchars

All of the stations above are staffed and most are key interchange points of which trains normally sit for at least 3 minutes at a time upon arrival - sufficient time in my opinion.

Stirling, Perth and Dundee maybe, but are there sufficient staff to allow this at the smaller stations?