Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[hexagon789]

Indeed. Mind you, it could be sold as an upgrade to the Inverclyde users allowing for a release of more 380s… some of them really like to complain about being stuck with 314s.

Not me! I'd take a 314 over a 380 any day

 

[InOban]

It's a pity we don't have a mole on the inside of the factory. I see no reason for secrecy. Just as passengers on a stuck train are much less unhappy if they are kept informed as to the reason, and the likely timescale, we are entitled to kept in the loop in this case.

 

[hexagon789]

It's a pity we don't have a mole on the inside of the factory. I see no reason for secrecy. Just as passengers on a stuck train are much less unhappy if they are kept informed as to the reason, and the likely timescale, we are entitled to kept in the loop in this case.

I agree, all this speculation about temporary stock to use is not helpful to the traveller but it is good fun reading some of the suggestions on here!

 

[mde]

Not me! I'd take a 314 over a 380 any day

Let's face it, if you put some new seats (not the Fainsa specials) and a CET unit in them the average passenger who is complaining in the Daily Record would probably be happy… age is nothing but a number.

 

[hexagon789]

Let's face it, if you put some new seats (not the Fainsa specials) and a CET unit in them the average passenger who is complaining in the Daily Record would probably be happy… age is nothing but a number.

Indeed, can we do that maybe? I like the idea very much!

 

[greyman42]

This has probably been mentioned earlier, but would the spare 365s not be an ideal gap stop. Is it training the crews on them that would be the issue?

 

[hexagon789]

This has probably been mentioned earlier, but would the spare 365s not be an ideal gap stop. Is it training the crews on them that would be the issue?

It has been, it would be, and it probably is unfortunately. As I've said before on this thread, I really can't see anything other than long-term short-forming happening.

 

[gingertom]

It has been, it would be, and it probably is unfortunately. As I've said before on this thread, I really can't see anything other than long-term short-forming happening.

I would doubt very much that long-term short-forming would be acceptable, either to passengers, ScotRail or ScotGov. Passengers want a seat, ScotRail to avoid fines and ScotGov, who want to see results for funding the EGIP improvements.

 

[hexagon789]

I would doubt very much that long-term short-forming would be acceptable, either to passengers, ScotRail or ScotGov. Passengers want a seat, ScotRail to avoid fines and ScotGov, who want to see results for funding the EGIP improvements.

True, I understand your point (I can't say I like the idea of being stuck in 3-car trains in the peak for months on end), bit really what stock are ScotRail going to lease? There's too many ifs and buts with the options at hand.

 

[mark-h]

Is it training the crews on them that would be the issue?

How long does it take to train a driver on a new type of train? Is there a limit to the number of types that they are able to drive?

 

[gingertom]

True, I understand your point (I can't say I like the idea of being stuck in 3-car trains in the peak for months on end), bit really what stock are ScotRail going to lease? There's too many ifs and buts with the options at hand.

At least there are alternative options to short-forming, all of which have their pros and cons. Unless there's a quick fix to the windscreen issue then do nothing is not an option. 12-18 months has been rumoured, if this proves true then I can see 365s coming north.

 

[hexagon789]

At least there are alternative options to short-forming, all of which have their pros and cons. Unless there's a quick fix to the windscreen issue then do nothing is not an option. 12-18 months has been rumoured, if this proves true then I can see 365s coming north.

Possibly, a lot of people laughed at the idea of ScotRail using InterCity 125s and then it happened, so I'll keep an open mind. I think it's just it seems strange somehow.

 

[John R]

It's a pity we don't have a mole on the inside of the factory. I see no reason for secrecy.

We'll be told something when there is something to say. I know it's hard in these days of social media, but businesses don't have an obligation to give a day by day blow by blow account of what is going on behind the scenes. I suspect there are a lot of commercial negotiations going on, some probably quite tough, both in respect of the Hitachi contract, and any plan to bring in stock as a stop-gap. Until these negotiations are finalised, the parties involved are quite entitled to expect a degree of confidentiality. Of course the first step is to find a solution and determine how long it will take to implement, and I am sure there is a huge amount of activity in this regard, particularly at Hitachi. Do you really expect a running commentary from Hitachi or Scotrail as to how this is progressing?

 

[InOban]

Yes. He who pays the piper..., and the the users and the taxpayers are paying for Scotrail.

 

[gingertom]

We'll be told something when there is something to say. I know it's hard in these days of social media, but businesses don't have an obligation to give a day by day blow by blow account of what is going on behind the scenes. I suspect there are a lot of commercial negotiations going on, some probably quite tough, both in respect of the Hitachi contract, and any plan to bring in stock as a stop-gap. Until these negotiations are finalised, the parties involved are quite entitled to expect a degree of confidentiality. Of course the first step is to find a solution and determine how long it will take to implement, and I am sure there is a huge amount of activity in this regard, particularly at Hitachi. Do you really expect a running commentary from Hitachi or Scotrail as to how this is progressing?

No, but passengers who have been promised longer faster greener trains are having to endure short-formed diesel sets are entitled to an explanation of what's going on and when they can expect the promised improvements.

 

[InOban]

At the very least, we need to know that Hitachi have accepted full responsibility for the delay, and therefore the costs associated with that.
After all, they could argue that if the wires had been up in time, they would have discovered the issue earlier, although it should have been apparent onwhatever test track they used.

 

[Domh245]

although it should have been apparent onwhatever test track they used.

Not necessarily. It's supposedly something that only shows up in the dark, which I doubt is something that they'd have been testing at Velim, nor would it necessarily have signals situated so as to replicate the phenomenon. There are some things that only become apparent when you start running things in anger over the places you want to run them (Class 800 on the GWML comes to mind)

 

[gingertom]

At the very least, we need to know that Hitachi have accepted full responsibility for the delay, and therefore the costs associated with that.
After all, they could argue that if the wires had been up in time, they would have discovered the issue earlier, although it should have been apparent onwhatever test track they used.

I guess they drive on the other side of the road in the Czech republic so the signals would be on the right so visible through a different part of the glass and the issue didn't show?

 

[hexagon789]

I guess they drive on the other side of the road in the Czech republic so the signals would be on the right so visible through a different part of the glass and the issue didn't show?

Not necessarily, several right-have drive countries have left-hand running on their railways

 

[YorkshireBear]

Would you care to quote a source for that or is it another case where “apparently” = a rumour I heard on the platform end/in the mess room?

If we all had sources this forum would cease to exist of course.

Speaking to a colleague was all who was around back then.

 

[lammergeier]

How long does it take to train a driver on a new type of train? Is there a limit to the number of types that they are able to drive?

For a driver who currently drives electric traction it would be typically 1-3 days depending on differences to systems such as brakes, whether the driver is used to using a combined power brake controller etc. There is no limit to how many traction types someone can sign.

If the driver doesn't sign electric units then it would be a full course, typically two or maybe even three weeks.

 

[John R]

At the very least, we need to know that Hitachi have accepted full responsibility for the delay,.

Again, we might want to know, but we don't need to know. And we clearly won't be told until those commercial negotiations have concluded. And I do agree with gingertom that passengers are entitled to an explanation as to what is going on and when they can expect improvements, but one cannot expect to be told everything until there is a plan in place and the commercials have been agreed with all the relevant parties. As one example, for all we know Scotrail or Hitachi (who will probably end up paying) are having negotiations with a couple of ROSCOs to lease alternative stock. You wouldn't seriously expect this to be made public as that information (what type of stock, how many options are available) could influence the price they could get from the ROSCOs.

 

[James James]

I guess they drive on the other side of the road in the Czech republic so the signals would be on the right so visible through a different part of the glass and the issue didn't show?

UK trains drive on the left, just like road vehicles. But so do Swiss trains - trains on the left, despite road vehicles being right. Polish trains do drive on the right however, and photos suggest that the Czechs are likewise on the right.

 

[SC318250]

They were being tested between Gourock/Wemyss Bay and Langbank initially. Then hauled to Shields or Mossend, so where there were multiple signals together ie Paisley Gilmour Street approach (from Glasgow side) the 385 never operated under its own power during the initial testing.
It has probably been when they started running at night on Edinburgh to Glasgow that this became apparent, hence why there were test runs between Glasgow Central and Paisley Gilmour Street to find out what was happening

 

[InOban]

French also traditionally on the left. Not sure about the tgv lines.

 

[380101]

They were being tested between Gourock/Wemyss Bay and Langbank initially. Then hauled to Shields or Mossend, so where there were multiple signals together ie Paisley Gilmour Street approach (from Glasgow side) the 385 never operated under its own power during the initial testing.
It has probably been when they started running at night on Edinburgh to Glasgow that this became apparent, hence why there were test runs between Glasgow Central and Paisley Gilmour Street to find out what was happening

The issue is present even with single signals. For example - the signal at the end of platform 3 at Glasgow Central was viewed as multiple signals by several drivers, Ops Director, Ops Safety guy and ASLEF officials which resulted in ASLEF making a public statement about the issue (cleverly engineered by ScotRail as they knew ASLEF would go public about it). The initial testing at Gourock last year did uncover this issue but the drivers doing the testing didnt report it initially along with the nausea and sore heads they were getting from looking out the windscreens. It was DB cargoUK drivers doing the initial testing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I doubt Velim has UK-pattern signalling or normal signalling at all.
[history time] Much of the Austrian Empire's railways began with left hand runnig (influenced by the British, who designed the first one, the Nordbahn (Vienna-Bohumin-Krakow).
The Czechs and Poles (Galicia) converted to right hand running over the years after independence, but Austria itself clung on to left hand running on the domestic remains of the Nordbahn and Südbahn.
The Südbahn south of the Semmering Pass through Graz is still left handed, which runs all the way through Slovenia to Trieste, where Italy is of course left-handed.
For that matter the Leipzig-Dresden railway also began as left handed, again because of British influence. [/history time]

ROSCO-wise, the 385s are unusual in being financed by Caledonian Rail Leasing who do not operate any other stock.
So they will have no leverage over the deployment of other EMUs with the usual ROSCO suspects (Angel, Porterbrook, Eversholt).
It must be a real problem for Hitachi, in parallel with the current difficulties with IEP roll-out.
At the very least it will be impacting their cash flow.
It seems they are fallible after all, just like Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier etc.

 

[cj_1985]

Certainly can't be making them look all that good.
Kinda like Alstom in the late 90s...

I know it would make me think twice about ordering anything from Hitachi, when they've engineered this flaw

 

[hexagon789]

The Czechs and Poles (Galicia) converted to right hand running over the years after independence

I thought that was the case, but wasn't sure

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly can't be making them look all that good.
Kinda like Alstom in the late 90s...

I know it would make me think twice about ordering anything from Hitachi, when they've engineered this flaw

Indeed, it can't be good publicity for them what with this and teething troubles with the IEPs.