Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Southsider]

Many other units have curved windscreens? Apparently this issue even happened on the HSTs when the manufacturer was changed to a cheaper manufacturer. Wonder if that could be an issue?

Yes, a bit surprising the glass manufacturers haven’t come up with something. They must encounter this sort of thing quite frequently. I’m sure they are heavily involved and working on it.

 

[mde]

It would be better than nothing

It'd be a liability waiting to happen if they suddenly introduced more inaccessible coaches - of course, it could be argued that they are temporary, but, that's not likely to be a satisfactory answer for the Disabled Persons Organisations / disabled people themselves since it could be interpreted as an intentional breach of the Equality Act.

Of course, if suitable stock was available, even if it wasn't up to the latest RVAR/PRM-TSI standard it'd be more acceptable. You could of course adapt some of the LHCS to meet the minimum standard, but, the cost would likely be prohibitive.

 

[47802]

It'd be a liability waiting to happen if they suddenly introduced more inaccessible coaches - of course, it could be argued that they are temporary, but, that's not likely to be a satisfactory answer for the Disabled Persons Organisations / disabled people themselves since it could be interpreted as an intentional breach of the Equality Act.

Of course, if suitable stock was available, even if it wasn't up to the latest RVAR/PRM-TSI standard it'd be more acceptable. You could of course adapt some of the LHCS to meet the minimum standard, but, the cost would likely be prohibitive.

I would say there is Zero chance of Loco Hauled stock on the E&G, and if any were to be used it would be on other routes in the context of freeing up units for the E&G

 

[47802]

Yes, a bit surprising the glass manufacturers haven’t come up with something. They must encounter this sort of thing quite frequently. I’m sure they are heavily involved and working on it.

Really, no I'm sure they are all just sat around twiddling their thumbs.

 

[Northhighland]

Really, no I'm sure they are all just sat around twiddling their thumbs.

No i am sure there are hordes of extremely smart staff throughout he supply chain beavering away night and day to solve the problem or problems as it now seems to be. Just a pity the whole thing didn't start earlier since we are already a year late.

 

[Southsider]

Really, no I'm sure they are all just sat around twiddling their thumbs.

Perhaps you’re right

 

[InOban]

One problem must be that in any modern vehicle the glass is part of the structural integrity of the vehicle, not something just filling in a hole in the bodywork.

 

[Rob F]

One problem must be that in any modern vehicle the glass is part of the structural integrity of the vehicle, not something just filling in a hole in the bodywork.

So we can't just take the glass out and issues the drivers with warm coats and goggles?


Rob

 

[InOban]

Something like that.

 

[43096]

Apparently this issue even happened on the HSTs when the manufacturer was changed to a cheaper manufacturer.

Would you care to quote a source for that or is it another case where “apparently” = a rumour I heard on the platform end/in the mess room?

 

[dilbertphil]

I for one am not surprised at Scotrails woes. With Alex Hynes at the helm a total cock up was inevitable. My experience of him is that actually running a decent train service is a long way down his list of priorities.

 

[SC318250]

For DOO, for 318/320 or those units that dont have cameras fitted like 334/380.
Do mirrors etc need to be fitted at all platforms or only ones that are not straight?

My thinking was would it be cheaper and quicker to put 380 on to E&G and move some 334 units to Ayrshire (retraining/refreshing training) and bring in some 321 units for some North Clyde/Argyle line that could then free up 318/320 for Airdrie to Bathgate
If all platforms require mirrors, then only from Drumgelloch to Edinburgh Park would probably require this

 

[170401]

If all platforms require mirrors, then only from Drumgelloch to Edinburgh Park would probably require this

Pretty sure all new schemes must have In cab CCTV for DOO operation now, which is why 334s were drafted onto this route in the first place.

 

[43096]

I for one am not surprised at Scotrails woes. With Alex Hynes at the helm a total cock up was inevitable. My experience of him is that actually running a decent train service is a long way down his list of priorities.

In what way is the Class 385 situation down to ScotRail?

 

[hexagon789]

I would say there is Zero chance of Loco Hauled stock on the E&G

No Shove Duffs then, I'm disappointed

 

[Strathclyder]

I for one am not surprised at Scotrails woes. With Alex Hynes at the helm a total cock up was inevitable. My experience of him is that actually running a decent train service is a long way down his list of priorities.

An EMU with such a glaring design flaw with it's cab is hardly Alex Hynes' (or for that matter, ScotRail's) fault. The blame should & will be laid largely at Hitachi's door for designing, approving and building it with said flaw in the first place. One sincerely hopes that they don't stand to profit from this contract in light of such a botched design and the associated costs of rectifying it.

 

[hexagon789]

An EMU with such a glaring design flaw with it's cab is hardly Alex Hynes' (or for that matter, ScotRail's) fault. The blame should & will be laid largely at Hitachi's door for designing, approving and building it with said flaw in the first place. One sincerely hopes that they don't stand to profit from this contract in light of such a botched design and the associated costs of rectifying it.

I blame Hitachi for it, certainly I keep wondering how the windscreen issues were not discovered and sorted during intial/earlier testing.

I suppose that we are likely to be stuck with short-formed E-G services until the issue is resolved.

 

[ScottDarg]

Latest rumour posted to scot-rail.co.uk regarding this:

Latest rumour has it that there is a delay of up-to between 12 - 18 months. (Cab to be moved back a few inches and nose cone fitted?) if that makes sense to anyone...

 

[Highland37]

What's the source of the rumour? I am not doubting it, just trying to develop a fuller picture.

 

[ScottDarg]

What's the source of the rumour? I am not doubting it, just trying to develop a fuller picture.

I'm not sure how credible the user that posted it is or where they'd have heard it (which is why I put the emphasis on rumour).

 

[Highland37]

I'm not sure how credible the user that posted it is or where they'd have heard it (which is why I put the emphasis on rumour).

Thanks. Time will tell I guess.

 

[themiller]

I for one am not surprised at Scotrails woes. With Alex Hynes at the helm a total cock up was inevitable. My experience of him is that actually running a decent train service is a long way down his list of priorities.

Alex Hynes hasn't been in position for it to have been his fault even if it had been his role to approve such details. Surely SR drivers and unions have been involved in the project as well as the owning ROSCO's engineers. Even if all that went OK, it's only when trains are out on their intended routes that the final problems are apparent - witness the IET trains on the GWML causing problems whilst 387s were running OK from day 1. The 385s are a new variation of a design proved on a different line so these things are to be expected. That's what commissioning is for!

 

[scotraildriver]

If I posted every rumour that is going around about 385's and HST's this thread would be around 300 pages long. The only absolute truth at the moment is that this is a total mess and everyone involved is working mighty hard to resolve it and get these trains into service. This is the biggest project in Scotrail for a generation and everyone wants it to work, not least the passengers. It WILL be resolved and hopefully sooner rather than later. Just because every little detail isn't being reported to this forum doesn't mean nothing is happening.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well well. I have just caught up reading pages and pages of stuff. I cannot recall reading anything about the seats. what is wrong with you all .

What occurs to me and I have not recalled seeing it mentioned before but it is (too ?) simple.

Do not release any/some of the 170s and 158s that are due to leave Scotland. OK OK this screws up the rest of Britain's plans but they are on thin ice already. Lets pull together chaps. After all, in the big picture (ie the UK) there is not going to be a sudden cull of trains. Even the cull of non-compliant stuff (pacers etc) in December 2020 can be put off. All that happens is that improvemenmnts are delayed rather than loads of people losing what little service they had - anywhere in the United Kingdom.

The only reason to panic is if people want to save face and blame others who themselves want to cover their backsides by counter blaming first.

Bad (brown) things happens, lets get on with coping. As for those saying the problems should have been foreseen well of course that is so. But then why do we insist on testing everything after it has been so carefully designed. It is because, in reality, the unexpected happens.

BUT if it is going to take an age to sort out the driver visibility problem then apart from the simple/initial fix of not changing anything - yet. The next step is to ask how long do we (well not me as I am from the dirty sweaty capital down South) have to cope. I trust that the people in charge are busy doing that instead of fighting. So if it will be a long time then get hold of the 365s for E&G and get on with training the people who have to drive, despatch and maintain them. Quicker option and possibly an initial solution is to grab as many 315s, 317s and 321s as possible/feasible and use these to cascade the 380s towards E&G.

It is ironic that the UK is awash with surplus electric trains and short of diesel trains. Anyone from the UK who is at all worried about the environment should be happy about that. But in one part of the UK where the electrification has gone LESS unsuccessfully they are short of electric trains .

 

[Peter Sarf]

Regarding the 385s themselves. While perusing this thread I looked at the very first picture in post number one and I must say the window at the front seems larger than I remember/expected. Perhaps something has changed or does it look different with glass and a thumping great seal added ?.

 

[td97]

Do not release any/some of the 170s and 158s that are due to leave Scotland. OK OK this screws up the rest of Britain's plans but they are on thin ice already. Lets pull together chaps. After all, in the big picture (ie the UK) there is not going to be a sudden cull of trains. Even the cull of non-compliant stuff (pacers etc) in December 2020 can be put off. All that happens is that improvemenmnts are delayed rather than loads of people losing what little service they had - anywhere in the United Kingdom.

Scotrail cannot simply keep the 170/158's because they don't have enough rolling stock. Northern have a contractual agreement with the ROSCO to receive said trains on a contracted date. Scotrail would be in breach of contract by refusing to release them.
The only arrangement that could be arranged is for Northern to sub-lease the trains back to Scotrail, but that's unlikely given they already don't have enough stock to go ahead with their May timetable changes, owing to electrification delays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I for one am not surprised at Scotrails woes. With Alex Hynes at the helm a total cock up was inevitable. My experience of him is that actually running a decent train service is a long way down his list of priorities.

I am no fan at all of Hynes and have criticised a number of issues with his approach to running the previous Northern franchise in this forum on a number of occasions. However, this issue is Hitachi's fault and nobody else's. They agreed a contract to build EMUs in good faith, and the EMUs they built are faulty.

 

[433N]

If the rumour of 12-18 months is true, I certainly hope that there will be some substitute traction despite the associated problems.

Whilst I recognise that this is not the fault of SG, the effect of a deteriorating service, which was already recognised as inadequate, will merely drive (sic) people to the roads and expose the inadequacy in investment there over the past decade or two ; particularly in the area of the Edinburgh by-pass which IIRC has 3 of the 10 worst hotspots for congestion in the UK.

So basically I do think that this is everybody's problem : Hitachi , Abelio, ScotRail and SG.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I personally think that I've if the design wasn't changed to include a gangway then they potentially might have been in service by now.

It's all fine and well putting the blame solely on Hitachi for the faults, but whoever wanted a gangway included whether that be the Scottish Government or TS, surely have to take a proportion of the blame for changing the designs.

 

[mde]

I would say there is Zero chance of Loco Hauled stock on the E&G, and if any were to be used it would be on other routes in the context of freeing up units for the E&G

Indeed. Mind you, it could be sold as an upgrade to the Inverclyde users allowing for a release of more 380s… some of them really like to complain about being stuck with 314s.