Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[InOban]

That's quite possible.

 

[Multivac]

Looking at the cab interior design on the dca-design website, it seems cramped and claustrophobic on the drivers side. Like sitting in cupboard.

What are the problems experienced by the ScotRail drivers as Japanese Railways have had curved windscreens on all sorts of trains for ages? A quick web search will bring up some and even a few extreme trains, to British eyes, where the entire front is curved in many planes. I offer the Nankai train, Kintetsu 50000 Shimakaze (2,800 mm wide) and the 500 Series Shinkansen as examples.

No doubt the problem will be fixed and probably with a polarizing coating on the windscreens or a pair of decent sunglasses for the driver.

 

[jopsuk]

The equivalent Japanese trains are typically 30cm wider

 

[380101]

Are 385s still running in test mode in Scotland or has that been suspended?

Driver training has been suspended due to the windscreen issue. Could be a long time before these 385s enter passenger carrying services.

 

[Macwomble]

Driver training has been suspended due to the windscreen issue. Could be a long time before these 385s enter passenger carrying services.

Ohhhh s**t! Cue all the SNP & Humza Yousuf bashers...........

 

[380101]

Ohhhh s**t! Cue all the SNP & Humza Yousuf bashers...........

to be fair to Humza Yousaf, its not really his fault. The fault lies in the manufacturer, Hitatchi, and how they have designed the cab to accomodate the gangway (required to fulfill the franchise requirement of passengers and on board catering to be able to move through the whole train). Although further delays will give political opponents another opportunity to attack the SNP over ScotRail. (note, I am not a fan of the SNP, but they are fairly blameless in regards the 385 debacle).

 

[jopsuk]

if only they'd gone 6 and 8 car fixed formations...

 

[mcmad]

They needed the interim 7 car units until Queen St is extended some time next decade.

When was the original go live date for the 385's, December 16 wasn't it? At this rate its going to be 2 years late which is a shocking state of affairs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They needed the interim 7 car units until Queen St is extended some time next decade.

When was the original go live date for the 385's, December 16 wasn't it? At this rate its going to be 2 years late which is a shocking state of affairs.

No dont think so thought it was dec 17. The electrification was late but dont think the 385s were planned from start.

 

[mcmad]

Looks like Autumn 17 was the original date as per this article, what was the original plan for the gap between the wires going live in Dec 16 and then? The 380s cascade that eventually happened?

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2016/02/11/class-385-route-introduction-plans-revealed

 

[Northhighland]

to be fair to Humza Yousaf, its not really his fault. The fault lies in the manufacturer, Hitatchi, and how they have designed the cab to accomodate the gangway (required to fulfill the franchise requirement of passengers and on board catering to be able to move through the whole train). Although further delays will give political opponents another opportunity to attack the SNP over ScotRail. (note, I am not a fan of the SNP, but they are fairly blameless in regards the 385 debacle).

You are right to a degree, however the rectification and how it is managed and progressed does become a political issue. The ultimate client is the Scottish government. if the contract is now well over a year late what have they been doing to manage the situation is a perfectly legitimate question. They make the appointments, set the strategy, they insisted on the corridor connection that seems to be causing the issue. So there are legitimate questions. Also how long does it take a company with the resources Hitachi Rail have to fix a design flaw? Seems this was noted months ago, still not got an agreed solution, no timetable for rectification. Seems reasonable to me that questions are asked of transport Scotland and ultimately the Scottish government.

 

[SC318250]

What’s the bets a couple of units get added on as compensation for late delivery, like happened with the 334 delivery (2 additional 170)

When are the next batch of diesels of lease after the first 4 go. Fair enough loosing 4 has not caused to much issues, but if the other 6x158 and more 170 units disappear in May and the 385s are not in use then I think other units will need to be brought in.

318/320 could be put on Gourock and Wemyss Bay lines to release the 380 units but that wont release that many, and 321 units could be brought in for North Berwick/Dunbar but I can see major issues with the fact driver training has been stopped

 

[SC318250]

Just seen on another thread.. another 12 x 170 due on top of the 4 already transferred due at Northern for 1st July

 

[Highland37]

You are right to a degree, however the rectification and how it is managed and progressed does become a political issue. The ultimate client is the Scottish government. if the contract is now well over a year late what have they been doing to manage the situation is a perfectly legitimate question. They make the appointments, set the strategy, they insisted on the corridor connection that seems to be causing the issue. So there are legitimate questions. Also how long does it take a company with the resources Hitachi Rail have to fix a design flaw? Seems this was noted months ago, still not got an agreed solution, no timetable for rectification. Seems reasonable to me that questions are asked of transport Scotland and ultimately the Scottish government.

Can I just be clear, you are saying that the purchaser of a service or goods should actively be involved with the manfacture and design of goods? I this case you think politicians should be involved in the design of a train and how any issues are resolved?

This is absurd. Those with the knowledge should manage the issue. The contract has been let and it is 100% the responsibility of Hitachi to deliver and to address issues. How on earth were the Scottish Government meant to address an issue on a train they had not yet received?

 

[NotATrainspott]

You are right to a degree, however the rectification and how it is managed and progressed does become a political issue. The ultimate client is the Scottish government. if the contract is now well over a year late what have they been doing to manage the situation is a perfectly legitimate question. They make the appointments, set the strategy, they insisted on the corridor connection that seems to be causing the issue. So there are legitimate questions. Also how long does it take a company with the resources Hitachi Rail have to fix a design flaw? Seems this was noted months ago, still not got an agreed solution, no timetable for rectification. Seems reasonable to me that questions are asked of transport Scotland and ultimately the Scottish government.

Transport Scotland/the Scottish Ministers are not the only ones who have a stake in this. Sumitomo Mitsui (via Caledonian Rail Leasing) aren't going to hand over (or will claw back) the hundreds of millions of pounds they have committed to Hitachi to build the trains if they're not fit for purpose. If there are serious safety concerns about the 385s, they will not be able to enter service with any operator. Even if you could force driver co-operation, I seriously doubt any insurer would want to take the risk. If death or serious injury were the result of this known problem, the pay-outs could be biblical.

 

[jopsuk]

They needed the interim 7 car units until Queen St is extended some time next decade.
.

That would have been simple, do as with the 345s and deliver the E-G sets as 7 car with the eighth cars put in storage until required.

 

[Stopper]

What will be the short term solution to this? Overcrowding on some short-formed services has been awful. This morning was some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

 

[Highland37]

Is there a short term solution to be found? No more DMUs available apparently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any Class 319s going spare?

 

[SC318250]

Pity there is no spare mark 3 coaches, and also DB hadnt kept all those 90s active, then there could have been

If only lol

 

[170401]

What will be the short term solution to this? Overcrowding on some short-formed services has been awful. This morning was some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

Someone else mentioned class 319 and 365 earlier in the thread.
Out of curiosity have these fleets ever been worked with guards or were they always DOO units?

 

[InOban]

Just seen on another thread.. another 12 x 170 due on top of the 4 already transferred due at Northern for 1st July

So come hell or high water the 385s must be got into service by then.

 

[CJSwan]

Heard yesterday (Sunday) that single 158s were running between Queen Street and Waverley... Apparently it wasn't pretty.

 

[TEW]

Someone else mentioned class 319 and 365 earlier in the thread.
Out of curiosity have these fleets ever been worked with guards or were they always DOO units?

319s had guards during their early days on Thameslink, occasional services on Southern and now on LM and Northern. 365s would have had guards when working on Southeastern routes I imagine.

 

[Northhighland]

Can I just be clear, you are saying that the purchaser of a service or goods should actively be involved with the manfacture and design of goods? I this case you think politicians should be involved in the design of a train and how any issues are resolved?

This is absurd. Those with the knowledge should manage the issue. The contract has been let and it is 100% the responsibility of Hitachi to deliver and to address issues. How on earth were the Scottish Government meant to address an issue on a train they had not yet received?

Just to be clear, no I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is they set up the contract and appointed all the advisors, they ultimately manage the contract as they are paying. I would definitely not expect them to be involved in the actual solution, but I would expect them to be managing the timescales around the rectification and ensuring appropriate pressure is applied to the contractor to get this fixed. Ultimately they run the rail network, they are first there when the photo opportunity arises, are quick to take credit for anything that goes right so they should be accountable when it goes wrong.

My point is this has been known about for months, yet units that were not built when the problem was first recognised are still being completed with this defect. We are now a year late in getting delivery and it seems a solution is still not sorted, let alone implemented. Not good enough form all parties involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heard yesterday (Sunday) that single 158s were running between Queen Street and Waverley... Apparently it wasn't pretty.

Would it perhaps make sense to reduce frequency rather than train lengths, so as to discourage travel that way? The discounted Anytime fare on the other route was a good idea, but won't cause season ticket holders or business travellers to switch.

 

[Northhighland]

Transport Scotland/the Scottish Ministers are not the only ones who have a stake in this. Sumitomo Mitsui (via Caledonian Rail Leasing) aren't going to hand over (or will claw back) the hundreds of millions of pounds they have committed to Hitachi to build the trains if they're not fit for purpose. If there are serious safety concerns about the 385s, they will not be able to enter service with any operator. Even if you could force driver co-operation, I seriously doubt any insurer would want to take the risk. If death or serious injury were the result of this known problem, the pay-outs could be biblical.

Nobody should be taking any short cuts with safety. No pressure should be applied, either the trains are safe or they are not. But why so long to get a fix? Seems that a lot of procrastination has been allowed to happen.

 

[Northhighland]

So come hell or high water the 385s must be got into service by then.

Why not use the HST's until Wabtec can get sorted out with the programme for refurbishment.

 

[route101]

Heard yesterday (Sunday) that single 158s were running between Queen Street and Waverley... Apparently it wasn't pretty.

Must be a while since that happened .

 

[route101]

Why not use the HST's until Wabtec can get sorted out with the programme for refurbishment.

Is there enough HSTs yet ?