Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[Darandio]

I don't know the whole argument, no; I'm aware there was discontent over it. Obviously we all want accessibility for all, but as things stand today surely there's other old stock running around the network daily with similar access issues? There are sadly even some stations, and busy stations too, only with steep steps to the platform, but they still use them.

Indeed, but the alternative provisions weren't deemed adequate. Effectively, the offer was that because they couldn't board the Mk3 stock, they had to wait for the next train an hour or so later. Only if they could not board that one would they be offered alternative road transport. It could have been avoided by just offering the alternative transport in the first place, but some would say TPE never had any intention of running them and this was the perfect opportunity to make the decision.

It's all in here, quite a good read with viewpoints on both sides, especially from page 26-27 onwards. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-not-to-use-mk3s-on-limited-services.144501/

 

[mike57]

Post 211: Can of worms

I am cynical, TPE don't want the hassle of the mk3's, therefore propose them for the Scarborough route where the service is hourly, and apart from summer Saturdays there are no other TOC services. Expected outcry occurs. TPE let off hook, and can play the 'it's not our fault' card, a bit like the 'Ealth n safety' card that is used by jobsworths countrywide (Not thinking of railways on this one)

 

[blackfive460]

Scarborough News covered the problems a while ago (link) and Robert Goodwill MP is aware.

Mind you, the Scarborough News is preaching to the converted and such a story is hardly likely to be picked up elsewhere.
I would be absolutely gobsmacked if Robert Goodwill did anything useful over this since it's hardly likely to enhance his political career which, after all, is what he's in politics for.

 

[BeHereNow]

It appears that the new timetable is here until at least May 2019

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2018/469774201-2018-07-09.html

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Following on from posts 203-4-5:

Would turning back Scarborough services from the NW at York and running York Scarborough as a shuttle need extra units, as there are usually 2 units on the branch anyway as far as I can tell. At York using platform 2 would mean the the shuttle wouldn't be affected by 'congestion' at York.

The potential York to Scarborough shuttle - I've mentioned earlier in the thread that you'd only need two units on the branch all day with the option of a third unit as a hot spare. I've also mentioned that for crewing you'd only require a crew of eight who would work either 5-2 or 2-11 which is also including cover. On average it takes 47 minutes to travel between York and Scarborough so there's plenty of time (10 to 15 minutes) to do a quick clean at either end and to get the unit back out in service on time.

All that the line would require would be for the lines timetable to be revised so that the two units on the line pass each other outside of Malton (e.g. they are timed to pass each other at Old Malton) rather than clogging the single platform up at Malton with the daft three minute headway.

One thing that I didn't mention was that TPE could get DRS to run the line by using DRS's rolling stock, thus freeing up the 185's. Either way the only solution would be to simply run the York to Scarborough section as a shuttle. If it can be done on the Cornish branchlines then the same can be done here.

TPE have the locos and Mk3s but chose not to use them. I can see the problems on the Scarborough service, but why not use them on the core route Manchester York, where at worst disabled passengers would have faced a 15 min wait at worst. What will happen when Liverpool reopens, things will get even worse.

I am gathering 3 weeks worth of data before firing letters off (just got first weeks worth). Facts get more attention than general service is rubbish type comments. I plan to copy in local radio and newspapers.

You want to get it to the various community radio stations too so it makes a bigger impact, you'd also want to get it in a few other regional papers too other than the Yorkshire Post so that others elsewhere (e.g. Devon, Wiltshire, Sussex) can show their discord with TPE for ruining plans for those wishing to have a day trip to Yorkshire's premier seaside resort.

 

[DarloRich]

you'd also want to get it in a few other regional papers too other than the Yorkshire Post so that others elsewhere (e.g. Devon, Wiltshire, Sussex) can show their discord with TPE for ruining plans for those wishing to have a day trip to Yorkshire's premier seaside resort.

I am not sure Devon's premier free paper is going to publish a story about trains in Yorkshire! Northern Echo, Yorkshire Post, Evening Gazette, Chronical etc might be interested. Western Daily Press. Doubtful.

 

[BurtonM]

is it just a company that has no interest at all in looking after its customers (not understandable but equally reprehensible)?

This, definitely this in my experience. Company's terrible on every level and rotten to the core, only cares about money. Buses are no better.

 

[matacaster]

How about a steam service from York - Scarborough and return say twice a day. Perhaps that would free up some 185's and provide greater capacity with 6 - 8 coach trains during summer - surely this would be very popular too.

Questions

a) would it work?
b) where would steam loco be able to get coal and water replenished?
c) are there passed drivers available with route knowledge?
d) is there a turntable available now at Scarborough or has it been removed?
e) any other impediments?

 

[cactustwirly]

The potential York to Scarborough shuttle - I've mentioned earlier in the thread that you'd only need two units on the branch all day with the option of a third unit as a hot spare. I've also mentioned that for crewing you'd only require a crew of eight who would work either 5-2 or 2-11 which is also including cover. On average it takes 47 minutes to travel between York and Scarborough so there's plenty of time (10 to 15 minutes) to do a quick clean at either end and to get the unit back out in service on time.

All that the line would require would be for the lines timetable to be revised so that the two units on the line pass each other outside of Malton (e.g. they are timed to pass each other at Old Malton) rather than clogging the single platform up at Malton with the daft three minute headway.

One thing that I didn't mention was that TPE could get DRS to run the line by using DRS's rolling stock, thus freeing up the 185's. Either way the only solution would be to simply run the York to Scarborough section as a shuttle. If it can be done on the Cornish branchlines then the same can be done here.




You want to get it to the various community radio stations too so it makes a bigger impact, you'd also want to get it in a few other regional papers too other than the Yorkshire Post so that others elsewhere (e.g. Devon, Wiltshire, Sussex) can show their discord with TPE for ruining plans for those wishing to have a day trip to Yorkshire's premier seaside resort.

Why does anyone in Devon/Wilts/Sussex give a damn about the train service in Scarborough.
I can understand national news, but local news outside Yorkshire??

 

[greyman42]

How about a steam service from York - Scarborough and return say twice a day. Perhaps that would free up some 185's and provide greater capacity with 6 - 8 coach trains during summer - surely this would be very popular too.

Questions

a) would it work?
b) where would steam loco be able to get coal and water replenished?
c) are there passed drivers available with route knowledge?
d) is there a turntable available now at Scarborough or has it been removed?
e) any other impediments?

There is the problem of the fire risk.

 

[AndrewE]

How about a steam service from York - Scarborough and return say twice a day. Perhaps that would free up some 185's and provide greater capacity with 6 - 8 coach trains during summer - surely this would be very popular too.

Questions

a) would it work?
b) where would steam loco be able to get coal and water replenished?
c) are there passed drivers available with route knowledge?
d) is there a turntable available now at Scarborough or has it been removed?
e) any other impediments?

More to the point, is the area wet (or green) enough for anyone to dare running steam trains at the moment? or are you going to double the footplate and loco-hire costs by running with a diesel in the consist to do all the work?

 

[daikilo]

More to the point, is the area wet (or green) enough for anyone to dare running steam trains at the moment? or are you going to double the footplate and loco-hire costs by running with a diesel in the consist to do all the work?

Better ask the North York Moors Railway how they do it!

 

[30907]

Better ask the North York Moors Railway how they do it!

By not exceeding 25mph?

 

[sheff1]

Why does anyone in Devon/Wilts/Sussex give a damn about the train service in Scarborough.
I can understand national news, but local news outside Yorkshire??

BBC seem to think people in Yorkshire should give a damn about train services in Sussex as the problems there have been all over the national news.

 

[Boysteve]

Credit where it's due, all trains made Scarborough yesterday. Also, whilst three evening services had delays of 15-20 minutes all trains before 6pm were on time too, some slightly early!

 

[Greybeard33]

Credit where it's due, all trains made Scarborough yesterday. Also, whilst three evening services had delays of 15-20 minutes all trains before 6pm were on time too, some slightly early!

The overall PPM for the North Trans Pennine route on 10 July was only 68.8%, with 11.3% of services cancelled or very late. http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/TP/97

So not much credit due.

 

[daikilo]

The overall PPM for the North Trans before destination Pennine route on 11 July was only 66.1%, with 22.9% of services cancelled or very late. http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/TP/97

So not much credit due.

If I understand the graph correctly it is PPM at destination. Given that there have been multiple turnbacks before destination on all routes this is not surprising. My impression is that the average has been worse since the timetable change, although it wasn't perfect before.

I do however get the impression that there may be a change of strategy this week with intermediate stops being missed to protect final destinations, albeit a few minutes late, and consequent late return starts.

 

[Greybeard33]

If I understand the graph correctly it is PPM at destination. Given that there have been multiple turnbacks before destination on all routes this is not surprising. My impression is that the average has been worse since the timetable change, although it wasn't perfect before.

Not just an impression. The monthly statistics show that PPM dropped from 86% in April 2018 to 67% in June and 66.5% to date in July.

Under the old timetable many months were above 90% and the worst performance of the previous two years was 76.6% in November 2016.

 

[Ploughman]

By not exceeding 25mph?

By top and tailing with a diesel just like on Network.

 

[mike57]

Things have been better this week, will hopefully be on 17:31 out of Man Vic if Northern get me there on time I will be interested to see how that runs as it's a prime candidate for late running and turning short at Malton. I wonder what they are doing differently, it was like someone flicked a switch on Monday.

 

[Darandio]

By top and tailing with a diesel just like on Network.

So not a fanciful twice a day steam service like was suggested?

 

[daikilo]

Things have been better this week, will hopefully be on 17:31 out of Man Vic if Northern get me there on time I will be interested to see how that runs as it's a prime candidate for late running and turning short at Malton. I wonder what they are doing differently, it was like someone flicked a switch on Monday.

Yup, I think a change of strategy (or crew flexibility). That said, I will watch the 1731 as I think the stopper will be delayed by the preceding fast running 11 late! Will the stopper be looped or skip-stop?

 

[daikilo]

Yup, I think a change of strategy (or crew flexibility). That said, I will watch the 1731 as I think the stopper will be delayed by the preceding fast running 11 late! Will the stopper be looped or skip-stop?

Stopper seems to be running ahead of the delayed fast with minimal knock-on effect on the 1731. Unfortunately, looks like the stopper will be let out from Huddersfield in front of both the fasts, and that will cause delays ....! Why no looping at HUD?

 

[IanXC]

Given that there must be crew changes at Leeds or York on at least some services, I do find it odd that TPE do not restart services to Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Scarborough, in the way that Northern do. It saves delaying another crew, and protects the right time departure from the extremities.

That said, perhaps this vacancy is a factor in the lack of action over reactionary delay.

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[daikilo]

Given that there must be crew changes at Leeds or York on at least some services, I do find it odd that TPE do not restart services to Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Scarborough, in the way that Northern do. It saves delaying another crew, and protects the right time departure from the extremities.

That said, perhaps this vacancy is a factor in the lack of action over reactionary delay.

It really only works if there is a spare trainset to drive, preferably in a bay platform ...!

What is happening right now with the stopper and the fasts would have been handled by BR control, who is allowed to delay the stopper by looping today?

If the stopper had been looped at HUD for the delayed fast and at Dewsbury for the Scarborough, it would have been late into Leeds but at least the TPEs would have had minimlal additional delay.

 

[mike57]

Just gone through Morley, 12-15 late. Left Leeds 20L

 

[daikilo]

Now it looks like the late-running Northern stopper from MCV-YRK via Bradford may have left LDS just ahead of both the TPEs. This is madness!

 

[mike57]

Now it looks like the Northern stopper from MCV-YRK via Bradford may have left LDS just ahead of both the TPEs. This is madness!

Judging by our lack of speed out of Leeds you are right

 

[daikilo]

Now it looks like the late-running Northern stopper from MCV-YRK via Bradford may have left LDS just ahead of both the TPEs. This is madness!

And, not surprisingly, the Middlesborough has already lost 19 minutes since leaving MCV (and I expect more) and the 1731 Scarborough which left right time has lost at least 28 minutes due to congestion and is now shown as turning at Malton. I think this is a NR issue (they control the tracks, signalling etc) to resolve with Northern and TPE.

I'm not going to do this every day but from my armchair I could see the perfect storm approaching. Surely the professionals should have seen it also, and done something about it?

 

[158756]

Now it looks like the late-running Northern stopper from MCV-YRK via Bradford may have left LDS just ahead of both the TPEs. This is madness!

They're between a rock and a hard place with the stopper. It left Leeds (8 late) at 1832, there's then TPEs at 1835, 1840 and 1845 and an XC sandwiched in at 1838 (on time until Leeds). Either they further delay the already very late fasts or they create a big gap in the service at the local stations.

That stopper being 8 late - it's timetable is literally impossible - it should be at Castleton at exactly the same time as the train from Clitheroe to Rochdale, and pass it before Rochdale. Even if it were possible, splitting the stoppers at Leeds would surely be an easy win for reliability. But this timetable is fixed until next May at least now.