Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[Greybeard33]

Today the 0600 to Manchester Airport yet again terminated at Picadilly even though it was only 10 late.

Today the delay to the 0600 from Scarborough seems to have been incurred mainly at Castlefield Junction. It waited 7 minutes there for the Northern 0713 Liverpool South Parkway to Oxford Road, which was 16L at the junction. In turn that had been held up behind the Northern 0723 Warrington Central to Oxford Road, which departed Warrington 11L and was 16L at the junction. This delayed departure was caused by it waiting for the EMT 0658 South Parkway to Norwich, which departed South Parkway 13L and was 16L at Warrington. The EMT ECS move which provided the stock for this service left Nottingham on time at 0343, but was 19L at Hazel Grove and arrived at South Parkway at 0707, 12L.

Had the TPE 0600 from Scarborough continued to the Airport 10L, that would have ensured a late departure of the 0847 Airport to Middlesbrough, since the scheduled turnround time is only 11 minutes. No doubt the late running of the Middlesbrough service would then have caused knock-on delays to other TPE services throughout the day. As it was, the Middlesbrough service started short at Piccadilly, already 2L, and was 5L at Victoria, but was able to recover this after Leeds.

When the Scarborough service was terminated short, the long dwell in Piccadilly P13 caused a 9 minute delay to the following 0422 Glasgow to Airport, which had been on time at Ordsall Lane. Passengers for the Airport who changed to this train from the Scarborough service at Piccadilly (same platform) will then have arrived at the Airport at 0853, 19 minutes after their scheduled arrival time, but hopefully not too late to catch their flights. The 0910 Airport to Glasgow still departed on time, since this diagram has a (relatively generous) 23 minute turnround time scheduled at the Airport.

The interactions and lack of resilience in this timetable seem to provide a demonstration of the "butterfly effect" of chaos theory, whereby supposedly the flutter of a butterfly's wings can ultimately result in a tornado on the other side of the world.

 

[sheff1]

Had the TPE 0600 from Scarborough continued to the Airport 10L, that would have ensured a late departure of the 0847 Airport to Middlesbrough, since the scheduled turnround time is only 11 minutes. No doubt the late running of the Middlesbrough service would then have caused knock-on delays to other TPE services throughout the day.

Any timetable which relies on things such as an 11 min turnround after a journey of 2 and a half hours through stations such as Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly should not be getting past the first draft.

And to think, only a few weeks ago I was given a glossy TPE leaflet at Stalybridge which stated that customers were set to benefit from "performance improvements", "new journey opportunities" and "enhanced reliability".

 

[HowardGWR]

Any timetable which relies on things such as an 11 min turnround after a journey of 2 and a half hours through stations such as Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly should not be getting past the first draft.

Very true. On a thread I have started on SN services from Victoria to Southampton, similar lengths of turnaround are being attempted and that on a journey length of two and a half hours with many junctions and a splitting / joining to boot.

I can see how it can be very profitable for the TOC, especially if they cancel and shorten at will. Alan Williams of Effingham Junction fame, has moved to Scarborough and shames this Tpex service frequently in Modern Railways. It doesn't seem to be taken any notice of though.

 

[mike57]

I was also on the 06:00 out of Scarborough this morning. Man Pic turnaround was announced before the delays at Castlefield, shortly after leaving Huddersfield as I remember. The reason given was an animal on the line to the airport, but I'm not sure if I believe that. And at that point train was almost on time. I had hopes of making the 08:28 to Preston, as it a platform 13-14 change. However the 08:28 was cancelled and I got the 08:30 via Bolton which ended up 15 minutes late.

Now waiting at Man Vic for the 18:30 home to Scarborough, I wonder what the chances are of it getting me there...

In terms of percentage of cancelled trains per day Scarborough must be up there with the worst of them

 

[Kieran1990]

Now waiting at Man Vic for the 18:30 home to Scarborough, I wonder what the chances are of it getting me there.

I’m on the one the hour before (17:31) should get into Leeds around 8/11L. It’ll probs be turned at Malton- this is a prime one for it. we are right up the crack of all shacks since Greenhill. Looked promising when I left work at 5:10 as I always check the 17:16 off Pic. The stopper lost 4mins between Guide-Stalybridge and the Class 185s Just aren’t cut out for stop start.

The 18:30 fairs better in my experience- good luck ✌️

 

[mike57]

I usually get the 17:30 but the 16:24 Preston to Manchester was cancelled so a hours delay repay, on an anytime return. Thing is the money is far less attractive at the end of a long day...

 

[mike57]

And to make the point about falling passenger numbers I am in carriage A at the front and leaving Manchester there are 4 people including myself. B and C have a few more but there are loads of empty seats, I doubt it's more than 25% full.

 

[daikilo]

I’m on the one the hour before (17:31) should get into Leeds around 8/11L. It’ll probs be turned at Malton- this is a prime one for it. we are right up the crack of all shacks since Greenhill. Looked promising when I left work at 5:10 as I always check the 17:16 off Pic. The stopper lost 4mins between Guide-Stalybridge and the Class 185s Just aren’t cut out for stop start.

The 18:30 fairs better in my experience- good luck ✌️

You may be lucky, NRE is still showing Scarborough as destination 7L. I agree that if 185s no good on stoppers then need something more suitable, a Pacer or 2? Note: delay to your train is showing on NRE as a late running train ahead of you ...

 

[158756]

I’m on the one the hour before (17:31) should get into Leeds around 8/11L. It’ll probs be turned at Malton- this is a prime one for it. we are right up the crack of all shacks since Greenhill. Looked promising when I left work at 5:10 as I always check the 17:16 off Pic. The stopper lost 4mins between Guide-Stalybridge and the Class 185s Just aren’t cut out for stop start.

The 18:30 fairs better in my experience- good luck ✌️

The delay between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge might be due to waiting for the 1515 from Newcastle, running slightly late all the way having arrived late 5 minutes late on the previous journey with an 11 minute turnaround.

 

[Kieran1990]

You may be lucky, NRE is still showing Scarborough as destination 7L. I agree that if 185s no good on stoppers then need something more suitable, a Pacer or 2? Note: delay to your train is showing on NRE as a late running train ahead of you ...

Haha I’d love to see a Class 142 decked out in TPE Livery.
Here’s an idea- why not a three way shuffle. Class 185’s (small pool) take over Manchester-Lakes, move Class 195s to Harrogate Loop and a small pool of Northerns Class 170 to all shacks?
But seriously the Class 185s aren’t cut out for the stop start.

Only 7L- it could make it Scarbados then!

 

[northernchris]

Today the delay to the 0600 from Scarborough seems to have been incurred mainly at Castlefield Junction. It waited 7 minutes there for the Northern 0713 Liverpool South Parkway to Oxford Road, which was 16L at the junction. In turn that had been held up behind the Northern 0723 Warrington Central to Oxford Road, which departed Warrington 11L and was 16L at the junction. This delayed departure was caused by it waiting for the EMT 0658 South Parkway to Norwich, which departed South Parkway 13L and was 16L at Warrington. The EMT ECS move which provided the stock for this service left Nottingham on time at 0343, but was 19L at Hazel Grove and arrived at South Parkway at 0707, 12L.

This is a perfect example of how ridiculously tight the entire schedule is any why TPE shouldn't have got their timetable signed off with just 11 minute turnarounds

 

[Greybeard33]

Haha I’d love to see a Class 142 decked out in TPE Livery.
Here’s an idea- why not a three way shuffle. Class 185’s (small pool) take over Manchester-Lakes, move Class 195s to Harrogate Loop and a small pool of Northerns Class 170 to all shacks?
But seriously the Class 185s aren’t cut out for the stop start.

Is it really correct that 185s are slower than Sprinters or Pacers on stopping services? They have a higher power to weight ratio and so should have better acceleration. And the wide double doors, like those of the 150, should enable shorter platform dwell times than the end doors on the 153/155/156/158/14x.

Might the issue rather be that the timings for the skip-stoppers in the new timetable are over-optimistic?

 

[nr758123]

Not seen any indication that the skip-stoppers are unable to keep to timings between Huddersfield and Stalybridge. They are usually late before they get anywhere near here.

The biggest problem appears to be the seven minute turnaround at Piccadilly for the Hull trains. Often this results in these trains being terminated short at Stalybridge, with passengers being left to work out for themselves how to get to Manchester City Centre (that being made worse by Northern's emergency timetable thinning out the Stalybridge-Victoria trains). In the opposite direction, it's a lottery (not a "lottery win" as someone idiotically described the post May 20th service in a different thread) as to whether the train starts at Piccadilly, and whether the next train out of Piccadilly connects with anything onward to Mossley & Slaithwaite.

A couple of occasions in the past two weeks when trains have apparently forgotten to stop at Mossley and Greenfield.

TPE seem unable to understand that there's an impact on passengers that they need to mitigate - when it takes two hours or more to get from Manchester to Mossley there's something not quite right - and in six weeks and counting of utter chaos they have not once bothered to communicate with passengers that they realise there's a problem that they need to fix, still less what they will do to fix it and when.

If TPE wanted to destroy their credibility with their new passengers, it's hard to see what they would have done differently.

 

[B&I]

TPE seem unable to understand that there's an impact on passengers that they need to mitigate - when it takes two hours or more to get from Manchester to Mossley there's something not quite right - and in six weeks and counting of utter chaos they have not once bothered to communicate with passengers that they realise there's a problem that they need to fix, still less what they will do to fix it and when.

If TPE wanted to destroy their credibility with their new passengers, it's hard to see what they would have done differently.

Precisely. It is basic psychology that people find delays and disruptions much easier to deal with if they know the extent of them, what is causing them, and whether anything can be done about them (even if thr answer to the last question is 'no'). However, TPE seem afflicted by the culture of denial in which modern corporate Britain is cloaked

 

[daikilo]

Precisely. It is vasic psychology that people find delays and disruptions much easier to deal with if they know the extent of them, what is causing them, and whether anything can be done about them (even if thr answer to the last question is 'no'). However, TPE seem afflicted by the culture of denial in which modern corporate Britain is cloaked

There is a big difference between "denial" and "not communicating". In this case, "denial" makes no sense as anyone can see that some trains aren't running at all whilst are delayed. However, "not communicating" can easily be seen as not caring, and for a new TOC to do that is a very poor start, whether they know what to communicate or not.

 

[Foxcover]

Did the senior management team change significantly at TPE with the new franchise ... I remember reading at the time there would be lot of retained experience and continuity, Leo Goodwin remaining etc?

 

[daikilo]

Did the senior management team change significantly at TPE with the new franchise ... I remember reading at the time there would be lot of retained experience and continuity, Leo Goodwin remaining etc?

I was thinking of the stoppers that they took-over from Northern.

 

[SSp]

I was on the 1102 from Thornaby to Manc Airport, mostly on time until a crawl into and out of York which left us stuck behind the Selby to Leeds stopper. Arrived into a rammed platform 16 at Leeds about twenty minutes late - glad I was getting off there! Just about made the northern 1251 direct to Preston.

 

[B&I]

There is a big difference between "denial" and "not communicating". In this case, "denial" makes no sense as anyone can see that some trains aren't running at all whilst are delayed. However, "not communicating" can easily be seen as not caring, and for a new TOC to do that is a very poor start, whether they know what to communicate or not.

Ok, 'clamming up' may be a better description of their communication strategy, but this suggests to me that they're in denial about the extent of their problems

 

[FQTV]

Ok, 'clamming up' may be a better description of their communication strategy, but this suggests to me that they're in denial about the extent of their problems

Why stick their corporate head above the parapet, when the parapet already has Newtork Rail’s, the DfT’s, TfN’s, Northern’s and Uncle Tom Cobbley’s heads fighting to hide behind themselves up there?

From a PR point of view, I think that they’re handling it spectacularly well; they know that the fragmented railway has been almost engineered to obscure accountability, and behind the scenes they may well be lobbying hard to renegotiate franchise terms to their advantage, blaming everyone else for the problems.

Ordsall Chord, Deansgate and Leeds aside, why also draw attention to the fact that there may be other things wholly under their control that they could be doing to help mitigate the effects of these delay pinchpoints?

Once again, why (on occasion) have they been losing time on clear ECML runs? Why can’t they turn round a 185 in a bay at Newcastle in less than 13 minutes in extremis? There are timetabled three minute, three car MU same- driver turnarounds on the network that are achieved as a matter of course. Can anything be done to improve dispatch times at intermediate stations, if self-dispatch is too slow? Can services to Newcastle be doubled-up and the frequency dialled back to hourly for now? Can Scarborough be run as a self-contained shuttle?

I know little enough about the way things work to accept that any or all of the above may be impossible, or might have no impact at all, but the current situation means that TPE can seemingly silently go through the motions of pushing their trombone slider in and out, while all the other members of the rag tag marching band’s random cymbals, drums and trumpets bang, crash and blow on without a conductor (no pun intended), each wearing different colours and playing different arrangements of poorly copied tunes.

 

[Boysteve]

This made me smile, I wonder what the 'error' was. Rhetorical question obvs

 

[scarby]

Transpennine Express' service between Scarborough and York continues to be abysmal on a daily basis, with very few services arriving in Scarborough on time.

Today the 08.35 inbound/0846 outbound is already cancelled and once again the 0600 departure didn't make it to Manchester Airport.

Current average journey times, if one calculates that as being at the station for an on-time departure, to arrival at Scarborough or York, must be slower than they were 100 years ago.

 

[daikilo]

Transpennine Express' service between Scarborough and York continues to be abysmal on a daily basis, with very few services arriving in Scarborough on time.

Today the 08.35 inbound/0846 outbound is already cancelled and once again the 0600 departure didn't make it to Manchester Airport.

Current average journey times, if one calculates that as being at the station for an on-time departure, to arrival at Scarborough or York, must be slower than they were 100 years ago.

The 0835/0846 was turned around at Malton due late running inbound apparently caused by congestion en-route from MCV. As has been said before, the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds route now appears to be overloaded in the sense that any delay causes knock-on effects and possibly services to lose their scheduled paths. It appears to be exacerbated by crew schedules which have no slack at all. I fear this will last indefinitely unless a concerted effort is made.

 

[scarby]

Do the people who make the decision to turn trains at Malton actually grasp the effects of this? Dumping passengers to wait at Malton and thus making their arrival in Scarborough at least 60 late and leaving passengers in Scarborough with no train to catch for an hour, many of whom will have onward connections at York.

 

[markindurham]

Do the people who make the decision to turn trains at Malton actually grasp the effects of this? Dumping passengers to wait at Malton and thus making their arrival in Scarborough at least 60 late and leaving passengers in Scarborough with no train to catch for an hour, many of whom will have onward connections at York.

Probably not.

 

[daikilo]

Do the people who make the decision to turn trains at Malton actually grasp the effects of this? Dumping passengers to wait at Malton and thus making their arrival in Scarborough at least 60 late and leaving passengers in Scarborough with no train to catch for an hour, many of whom will have onward connections at York.

Given the regularity with which this is happening if the inbound train is late (and the equivalents for the Middlesborough and Newcastle services), I assume that the subject has been fully reviewed and a collective decision taken. I am guessing that decision is linked to the difficulties Northern are having. Why there are no RRBs is less clear although they would probably only be useful for Malton-Scarborough.

 

[scarby]

Surely the company can't be meeting its obligations as set out in the franchise agreement?

 

[SSp]

Surely the company can't be meeting its obligations as set out in the franchise agreement?

Well they can blame someone else can't they.

Never let a crisis go to waste

 

[Spartacus]

One of the problems is how services are meant to follow each other from Huddersfield, a Middlesbrough followed by a Leeds followed by a Scarborough.

Even if both the Leeds and Scarborough are on time, if the Middlesbrough runs a bit late it’s prone to getting stuck between the Leeds and Scarborough. Then, when the Scarborough is meant to overtake the Leeds at Dewsbury it can’t because it has the Middlesbrough in front of it which also needs to stop at Dewsbury, so it follows the Leeds and sometimes Middlesbrough all the way to Leeds, putting about 15 minutes on it. For some reason the Pic-Leeds isn’t usually ‘looped’ in platform 4 at Huddersfield for at least the Middlesbrough to pass it.

 

[northernchris]

For some reason the Pic-Leeds isn’t usually ‘looped’ in platform 4 at Huddersfield for at least the Middlesbrough to pass it.

Would this be a Network Rail decision or a TPE control decision?