Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[mike57]

Cancelled to Scarborough turning at Malton what a suprise

 

[northernchris]

They're between a rock and a hard place with the stopper. It left Leeds (8 late) at 1832, there's then TPEs at 1835, 1840 and 1845 and an XC sandwiched in at 1838 (on time until Leeds). Either they further delay the already very late fasts or they create a big gap in the service at the local stations.

That stopper being 8 late - it's timetable is literally impossible - it should be at Castleton at exactly the same time as the train from Clitheroe to Rochdale, and pass it before Rochdale. Even if it were possible, splitting the stoppers at Leeds would surely be an easy win for reliability. But this timetable is fixed until next May at least now.

And the Clitheroe-Rochdale isn't helped by a freight which seems to pathed through Salford just ahead of it, which tends to cause the initial delay. The stopper is actually a Class 1 so should have equal priority out of Leeds (apart from the one TPE each hour which is a class 9) and I don't think its right for the passengers for local stations to be routinely held up for a succession of late TPE services.

I did however notice at Leeds the 1753 TPE stopper to Piccadilly was showing as delayed on the boards, with it only calling at Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Piccadilly so it does seem like there is a change of strategy

 

[daikilo]

I guess the Northern stopper then works the 1915 stopper to Brighouse. I agree that if the inbound had been held at LDS to let the TPEs past then it would have been late into YRK and possibly late for this departure, and may then have delayed other TPEs, but, someone needs to manage multiple TPE fasts and Northern stoppers along these 'tubes'.

 

[Kieran1990]

Stopper seems to be running ahead of the delayed fast with minimal knock-on effect on the 1731. Unfortunately, looks like the stopper will be let out from Huddersfield in front of both the fasts, and that will cause delays ....! Why no looping at HUD?

Sadly during the peaks- Northern occupy platform 4 at Hudds. Would have made more sense tonight if NR singnallers had the stopper looped at Diggle, let the late Middlesbrough pass then processed to Dewsbury where the Scarborough could loop. I was on the 17:31. We were only 4/5L at Huddersfield. Took a good 30/35 mins then reach leeds as we didn’t loop anything at Dewsbury

 

[daikilo]

Sadly during the peaks- Northern occupy platform 4 at Hudds. Would have made more sense tonight if NR singnallers had the stopper looped at Diggle, let the late Middlesbrough pass then processed to Dewsbury where the Scarborough could loop. I was on the 17:31. We were only 4/5L at Huddersfield. Took a good 30/35 mins then reach leeds as we didn’t loop anything at Dewsbury

Exactly, I cannot believe we would have let what did happen do so when I was BR. What Northern was on 4 at HUD as nothing shown, and why?

I wonder if Northern has been given a priority given they have been hit by (NR) timetable issues.

Interestingly, the return off Malton, which is on time, is stating on NRE that it is delayed by a broken down train earlier in the day. This is misleading, it was on time departing MCV on the inbound.

 

[northernchris]

Interestingly, the return off Malton, which is on time, is stating on NRE that it is delayed by a broken down train earlier in the day. This is misleading, it was on time departing MCV on the inbound.

Unless the broken down train earlier was the initial cause of the delay which caused the Scarborough service to get caught in the congestion

 

[158756]

Exactly, I cannot believe we would have let what did happen do so when I was BR. What Northern was on 4 at HUD as nothing shown, and why?

It looks like the stock for the 1813 to Piccadilly was on Platform 4, presumably arriving from Manchester at 1746.

The trouble with all this talk of looping or holding the stoppers is that there aren't any big gaps - once you stop for one TPE there's another and another, by which time the service is either cancelled if in a station or passengers detraining at Diggle or Mirfield or somewhere.

 

[daikilo]

It looks like the stock for the 1813 to Piccadilly was on Platform 4, presumably arriving from Manchester at 1746.

The trouble with all this talk of looping or holding the stoppers is that there aren't any big gaps - once you stop for one TPE there's another and another, by which time the service is either cancelled if in a station or passengers detraining at Diggle or Mirfield or somewhere.

No, the signaller can loop for one train only if he wishes/is instructed to by control. What happened today was partially avoidable.

 

[nr758123]

I did however notice at Leeds the 1753 TPE stopper to Piccadilly was showing as delayed on the boards, with it only calling at Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Piccadilly so it does seem like there is a change of strategy

I can assure you that inconveniencing passengers at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield and Mossley so that their hourly service turns into every two hours or even every three hours doesn't represent a change of strategy. It represents a continuation of the fiasco of the past seven weeks.

 

[mike57]

Unless the broken down train earlier was the initial cause of the delay which caused the Scarborough service to get caught in the congestion

We actually started to loose time around Ashton under Lyne on the 17:31.

What make me sad is that we have gone from something that worked most of the time to something that isn't working. Others have said that we are stuck with this mess until next May, if that is the case then there won't be much to worry about as passengers will have deserted. Then they can go back to 4 fast and one stopper per hour based on falling passenger numbers.

Ignore what others have said, I travel once or twice per week between Seamer and Manchester and the trains are less busy and have got progressively so since May, we can wait for figures, but I see it when ever I travel. As an estimate 20%, maybe more on some services.

 

[scarby]

We actually started to loose time around Ashton under Lyne on the 17:31.

What make me sad is that we have gone from something that worked most of the time to something that isn't working. Others have said that we are stuck with this mess until next May, if that is the case then there won't be much to worry about as passengers will have deserted.

For the first time in my life, I have no faith at all in the service or any desire to use it. If it’s a lottery as to whether the train will run, reach its destination or make onward connections, what’s the point?

If it’s like this now, how will things be in December, with freezing weather and winter storms, and when the network is under maximum strain with work, business, college, Christmas shopping passengers all at their highest?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Why does anyone in Devon/Wilts/Sussex give a damn about the train service in Scarborough.
I can understand national news, but local news outside Yorkshire??

The reason why I suggested regional papes outside of Yorkshire is because, in my view, its one step away from going to the national papers. You also do get people from the south and the west going holiday in Yorkshire and if they're going by train they'd at least want to know if they can still get to Scarborough or not.

In effect, you try and cover as many angles as possible, so that everyone knows that TPE have failed the Scarborough route with its constant turnbacks at Malton.

 

[cactustwirly]

The reason why I suggested regional papes outside of Yorkshire is because, in my view, its one step away from going to the national papers. You also do get people from the south and the west going holiday in Yorkshire and if they're going by train they'd at least want to know if they can still get to Scarborough or not.

In effect, you try and cover as many angles as possible, so that everyone knows that TPE have failed the Scarborough route with its constant turnbacks at Malton.

I seriously doubt that there are hoards of people traveling from the SW to Scarborough!
Most people would surely travel to Devon/Cornwall instead?
If there were people traveling most would go via car, as the train journey is very long

 

[AndrewE]

I seriously doubt that there are hoards of people traveling from the SW to Scarborough!
Most people would surely travel to Devon/Cornwall instead?
If there were people traveling most would go via car, as the train journey is very long

The car journey might be equally long, and even more tedious! In fact the journey might be so long that if the train is anything like competitive with the car it might be preferred... I have travelled with people who chose the train for Bridgwater to Leeds!

 

[daikilo]

For the first time in my life, I have no faith at all in the service or any desire to use it. If it’s a lottery as to whether the train will run, reach its destination or make onward connections, what’s the point?
PIC

For the first time in my life, I have no faith at all in the service or any desire to use it. If it’s a lottery as to whether the train will run, reach its destination or make onward connections, what’s the point?

If it’s like this now, how will things be in December, with freezing weather and winter storms, and when the network is under maximum strain with work, business, college, Christmas shopping passengers all at their highest?

Whilst today has not been perfect due technical issues, and provided the 1700 PIC stopper doesn't lose any more time, and with the Newcastle ahead of it and the 1717 PIC stopper ~on time, the 1731 should be OK if it passes the 1717 stopper at Dewsbury as planned.

 

[daikilo]

Whilst today has not been perfect due technical issues, and provided the 1700 PIC stopper doesn't lose any more time, and with the Newcastle ahead of it and the 1717 PIC stopper ~on time, the 1731 should be OK if it passes the 1717 stopper at Dewsbury as planned.

Looks like it did so should get to Scarborough. That said Scarby, I can understand your concerns, and I can't see an easy solution apart from adding crews and possibly a unit.

 

[mike57]

The car journey might be equally long, and even more tedious! In fact the journey might be so long that if the train is anything like competitive with the car it might be preferred... I have travelled with people who chose the train for Bridgwater to Leeds!

I have to travel from home to Dorchester a couple times a year, trust me its a long haul however you do it. If you use the car or train via London its 7 hours either way. The drive is miserable, Google claims 6 hours but its always taken me around 7, and thats with a fairly heavy right foot, there is plenty of potential for delays, Taking the train via London is tiring, Kings Cross > Waterloo is a pain. The easiest way is actually the longest time wise which is Seamer > York > Basingstoke/Southampton > Dorchester, which takes around 8 hours. We really have missed the boat in this country with respect to high speed rail, I can get from Paris to Barcelona in around 6.5 hours and thats around twice the distance.
Im travelling for work so cost is not my first consideration, at least on the York Basingstoke leg I can get some work done. If I was travelling at my own cost splitting the ticket can save quite a bit of money, otherwise an anytime ticket is about £180.

 

[mike57]

A good start to Friday (not) 7:43 from Seamer cancelled reason given is broken train, if that's the truth then lack of spare units doesn't bode well for when Liverpool reopens.

Looks like 2 on the trot cancelled from Seamer and Scarborough as 8:08 to Scarborough was showing cancelled at Malton no alternative transport appears to be provided, that means nothing from 6:47 to 9:46 at Seamer going West if that is the case

 

[daikilo]

A good start to Friday (not) 7:43 from Seamer cancelled reason given is broken train, if that's the truth then lack of spare units doesn't bode well for when Liverpool reopens.

Looks like 2 on the trot cancelled from Seamer and Scarborough as 8:08 to Scarborough was showing cancelled at Malton no alternative transport appears to be provided, that means nothing from 6:47 to 9:46 at Seamer going West if that is the case

It looks like the 8:46 off Scarborough is running albeit 12 late.

 

[scarby]

A good start to Friday (not) 7:43 from Seamer cancelled reason given is broken train, if that's the truth then lack of spare units doesn't bode well for when Liverpool reopens.

Sums up Transpennine Express' hopeless service. Basically if one wants to go from Scarborough to anywhere with a plan to be there in good time in the morning, one now has to take the 0600 or 0642 trains which are stabled overnight, as with any other service there is the risk of a cancellation and starting the journey 60 minutes late or more.

They can't even manage to get the first inbound service of the day, starting at York, to run. Truly pathetic.

 

[mike57]

13:08 at Malton was already 17L at Church Fenton so I am on the Coastliner, might make the 13:30 at Seamer home, I doubt 13:08 will even make it to Scarborough

 

[158756]

13:08 at Malton was already 17L at Church Fenton so I am on the Coastliner, might make the 13:30 at Seamer home, I doubt 13:08 will even make it to Scarborough

It did make it, 16 late, consequently departing 6 minutes late back to Manchester, somehow reaching Manchester only 8 minutes down.

 

[yorkguy]

Good feature on Look North tonight focusing on a Malton to Leeds commuter who has been late home every night since the timetable change, including tonight when he was on the 18.08 into Malton which was 30 minutes late

 

[AndrewE]

Good feature on Look North tonight focusing on a Malton to Leeds commuter who has been late home every night since the timetable change, including tonight when he was on the 18.08 into Malton which was 30 minutes late

Good, maybe my complaint about BBC reporting has had some effect... I'll look for it online. Did they mention TPE, or is it still all a "Northern" problem?

 

[yorkguy]

No it was exclusively about the TPE Scarborough service. They also found a TPE spokeswoman. Worth a watch.

 

[mike57]

Good feature on Look North tonight focusing on a Malton to Leeds commuter who has been late home every night since the timetable change, including tonight when he was on the 18.08 into Malton which was 30 minutes late

And he wont have been affected by the turning around at Malton, which has been an average of 2 trains a day since the change. Ill look for it.

I notice they didn't turn that one, no doubt they were aware of the Look North spotlight

 

[mike57]

I had planned on writing to the local MP's once I have gathered my evidence, but I wonder if this might be a better forum for me to present my concerns (BTW before I pull all my info together I want to wait for Liverpool services to restart as I reckon things will then get worse, so capture 1st week):

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...hanges-17-19/commons-written-submission-form/

Would anyone else on here be interested in submitting, or jumping on the back of mine? If so PM me. Using the data I have gathered I plan to argue that the majority of the delays are caused by Express trains being held up by stopping trains, rather than 'operational incidents' which tend to result in a delay at one point in the journey, and which seem to me to be at about the same level as previous years. Obviously the stopper in front problem is due the timetable change.

I will also highlight missed connections at Seamer, which affects me directly, which coupled with Northerns failure to deliver the hourly services causes inconvenience and delay, as well as the ridiculous timetabling at Malton with 3 mins between trains, and the shortening of turnaround times at Scarborough which results in greater likelyhood of turning around at Malton, and/or knock on effect to services out of Scarborough.

In other word highlight the obvious to everyone facts that the new timetable was doomed to fail.

 

[AndrewE]

No it was exclusively about the TPE Scarborough service. They also found a TPE spokeswoman. Worth a watch.

Pity they focussed on Malton then...
This is most of what I sent to the Beeb about the Today radio programme, fao their "transport" correspondant:

From previous experience I have found that specific (helpful) comments about your reporting get no attention, so I am making this into a complaint about the accuracy and quality of the coverage.

I am amazed that you included TransPennine Express in the list of franchises not affected in the current timetable debacle. They are an integral part of the problem across the north. You could try reading this: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transpennine-express-north-route-new-timetable.164702/ I know that the Network rail press release included the franchise in the "no changes in October" category, but that will not be true.

/snip/

Scarborough has almost lost its through services as a consequence of the delays (when trains are turned back at Malton) meaning passengers leaving the town are put on buses and miss their planned trains forward - which is currently a matter of serious concern locally (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scarborough-tpex-reliability.165578/)

 

[yorkguy]

I got a response from Kevin Hollinrake, Malton MP, who said he’d asked the Secretary of State to intervene. Content of his letter indicated he was aware of Scarborough services turning at Malton as well as punctuality. David Dunning, news reporter at Minster FM is also running with it

 

[northernchris]

If it’s like this now, how will things be in December, with freezing weather and winter storms, and when the network is under maximum strain with work, business, college, Christmas shopping passengers all at their highest?

This is a concern, as performance always drops around October time and doesn't usually recover until January.

I can assure you that inconveniencing passengers at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield and Mossley so that their hourly service turns into every two hours or even every three hours doesn't represent a change of strategy. It represents a continuation of the fiasco of the past seven weeks.

Indeed, First have clearly messed up (as usual!). Although from past experience when the Leeds-Piccadilly stopper has been delayed it has turned short so I suppose with the new way there's a chance the return journey will run as scheduled.