Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[philthetube]

This makes me thing busses should be on permanent standby at Malton/Scarboro until this is sorted

 

[mike57]

Probably not.

I think they do judging by the number of Transport police looking types hanging around at Scarborough and even Malton on a regular basis these days. I am a regular user and staff have told me they don't feel safe when services are stopped short in an evening. Booze and frustration are are a volatile mix. Note what happened to Seamer station a week or so ago. Again this increase in presence is post May 20th. They are expecting trouble, therefore they know the effect its having, conclusion from this is TPE management don't care because the people making the decisions don't have to face the passengers and are not affected by it. I bet if the decision makers pay packet was affected in the way mine is when I'm an hour late (hours money lost) the problems would be solved in a week, we would probably have a dedicated York Scarborough shuttle.

 

[Kieran1990]

Would this be a Network Rail decision or a TPE control decision?

Sadly wouldn’t work during the peak->as Northern occupy plat4 with long lay overs on the peak Piccadilly extras both AM and PM

 

[mike57]

And here is something I prepared earlier, a summary of performance of arrivals into Seamer from York over the last week. Preparing it for a letter to my MP, but thought I would share it here as well.

 

[Spartacus]

Sadly wouldn’t work during the peak->as Northern occupy plat4 with long lay overs on the peak Piccadilly extras both AM and PM

I'd somehow missed that when checking, probably not looking at peak times. I reckon it'd still be better to loop the Leeds stopper all the way back at Diggle, saving the Middlesbrough and Scarborough all the delay minutes they normally accrue following it from Dewsbury, and at a guess looking at today's running only about 8 minutes into the Leeds train.

 

[Kieran1990]

Ic

I'd somehow missed that when checking, probably not looking at peak times. I reckon it'd still be better to loop the Leeds stopper all the way back at Diggle, saving the Middlesbrough and Scarborough all the delay minutes they normally accrue following it from Dewsbury, and at a guess looking at today's running only about 8 minutes into the Leeds train.

I’ve always thought looping at Diggle could work. My daily 17:31 from Victoria follows the stopper from Mosley. Loop it at Diggle would allow the Scarborough a good clear run to Leeds.
But I’m unsure if the loop is still use or not and usable for passenger services/ would NR allow it to be used?

 

[pdq]

Ic


I’ve always thought looping at Diggle could work. My daily 17:31 from Victoria follows the stopper from Mosley. Loop it at Diggle would allow the Scarborough a good clear run to Leeds.
But I’m unsure if the loop is still use or not and usable for passenger services/ would NR allow it to be used?

A few years ago (between 2010 and 14) the eastbound TPE I was on overtook another that had been put in the Diggle loop because of a fault with the brakes, so the loop was definitely usable not that long ago

 

[bengley]

The loop is still in use. I was on a train a few weeks ago which was looped for a fast service there

 

[scarby]

Another rubbish day yesterday, with numerous late running services and an evening cancellation followed by yet another delay punching a big hole in the evening departures from Scarborough - lovely for those who used the train for a day trip.

 

[Bantamzen]

Surely the company can't be meeting its obligations as set out in the franchise agreement?

I think that goes without saying. But the question is what can they do? It was the DafT that set the requirements for the mixture and number of stoppers and fasts through the core where the problem lies. Scarborough might be feeling the brunt of the problems at the moment, but that's not to say that the previous timetable was perfect, it was far from it. It has been beset with capacity and timetable issues for years, this is just the thick edge of a long standing problem. The DafT should never have tried to set the current requirements without giving them extra resources.

The North TPE needs massive investment and soon. It needs 4 tracking for a significant portion, if not all and the same is true for electrification. In the meantime TPE are going to have to find a way with their rather limited number of units to bring some relief to the timetables. That won't be easy or quick to plan or implement. My starter for ten would be to split the stoppers at Huddersfield as Northern did, this would at least reduce the impact they have on the fasts meaning more should make it through to Scarborough.

 

[BeHereNow]

Please can you explain how rolling stock provision 2 years into a contract, and the short turnarounds, are DfTs fault?

 

[B&I]

I think that goes without saying. But the question is what can they do? It was the DafT that set the requirements for the mixture and number of stoppers and fasts through the core where the problem lies. Scarborough might be feeling the brunt of the problems at the moment, but that's not to say that the previous timetable was perfect, it was far from it. It has been beset with capacity and timetable issues for years, this is just the thick edge of a long standing problem. The DafT should never have tried to set the current requirements without giving them extra resources.

The North TPE needs massive investment and soon. It needs 4 tracking for a significant portion, if not all and the same is true for electrification. In the meantime TPE are going to have to find a way with their rather limited number of units to bring some relief to the timetables. That won't be easy or quick to plan or implement. My starter for ten would be to split the stoppers at Huddersfield as Northern did, this would at least reduce the impact they have on the fasts meaning more should make it through to Scarborough.

While I agree that something radical needs to be done with the route (and I would suggest getting started on HS3 ASAP, so that fast trains can be diverted onto it and the existing line can be improved under less high pressure conditions), is there anywhere that infrastructure upgrades can be made, relatively quickly and cheaply, to remove the current logjams ?

 

[daikilo]

While I agree that aomething radical needs to be done with the route (and I would suggest getting started on HS3 ASAP, so that fast trains can be diverted onto it and the existing line can be improved under less high pressure conditions), is there anywhere that infrastructure upgrades can be made, relatively quickly and cheaply, to remove the current logjams ?

The issue is to identify the root-cause of the 'log-jam. If the stopper is late off Stalybridge or Huddersfield (in either direction) then a delay to the fast service becomes almost inevitable. However, the root-cause is that the stopper was not on time and that can be caused by delays elsewhere including crew late off an inbound service. Throwing millions-worth of hardware at the core may help, but maybe much less elsewhere can better add the robustness this service needs (and maybe benefit other services as well).

Finally, I don't know what simulation tool NR uses for schedule robustness through complex multiple-junctions, but I think they need to warn DfT that it is good up to a point, and that is probably being exceeded around Manchester and Leeds.

 

[B&I]

I know little enough about the way things work to accept that any or all of the above may be impossible, or might have no impact at all, but the current situation means that TPE can seemingly silently go through the motions of pushing their trombone slider in and out, while all the other members of the rag tag marching band’s random cymbals, drums and trumpets bang, crash and blow on without a conductor (no pun intended), each wearing different colours and playing different arrangements of poorly copied tunes.

An absolutely brilliant metaphor for the chaotic way in which we choose to run our railways

 

[B&I]

I can never understand why Scarborough is left dependent on services which cross the Pennines, when I would assume that most of the demand comes from the rest of Yorkshire, but maybe I assume wrongly. Running shuttles from York, alternating with an extension of the Blackpool-York train, always seemed to me a better way of serving it, but I suppose that would get gummed up around York and Leeds as much as the present train does

 

[B&I]

The issue is to identify the root-cause of the 'log-jam. If the stopper is late off Stalybridge or Huddersfield (in either direction) then a delay to the fast service becomes almost inevitable. However, the root-cause is that the stopper was not on time and that can be caused by delays elsewhere including crew late off an inbound service. Throwing millions-worth of hardware at the core may help, but maybe much less elsewhere can better add the robustness this service needs (and maybe benefit other services as well).

Finally, I don't know what simulation tool NR uses for schedule robustness through complex multiple-junctions, but I think they need to warn DfT that it is good up to a point, and that is probably being exceeded around Manchester and Leeds.

I appreciate that those sort of in-service difficulties play a part too, though I assumed TPE, with fewer and less complex services than Northern, might be slightly better at actually having staff where they need to be at any given time

 

[The Planner]

Finally, I don't know what simulation tool NR uses for schedule robustness through complex multiple-junctions, but I think they need to warn DfT that it is good up to a point, and that is probably being exceeded around Manchester and Leeds.

Railsys, and im not 100% certain any of this was modelled anyway, you certainly do not do it for a normal timetable change.

 

[Bantamzen]

While I agree that aomething radical needs to be done with the route (and I would suggest getting started on HS3 ASAP, so that fast trains can be diverted onto it and the existing line can be improved under less high pressure conditions), is there anywhere that infrastructure upgrades can be made, relatively quickly and cheaply, to remove the current logjams ?

I honestly don't know, there may be a few options for passing loops, speed improvements and such. But it's really tinkering around the edges. What is really need is a full on improvement, properly resourced and supported. No more cheap 'Grayling Gap" style proposals, just get on with making the North TP a truly inter city line not just a slow suburban route with a lot of intercity routes shoehorned in. Because putting it bluntly, a HS3 or new TP alignment simply is going to happen for many a decade, and probably not at all.

 

[daikilo]

Railsys, and im not 100% certain any of this was modelled anyway, you certainly do not do it for a normal timetable change.

Say Piccadilly throat round Ordsall Curve to Victoria eastern throat? I can understand that late stoppers causing delays to following TPE non-stops shouldn't need modelling .... just a bit of risk management.

 

[mike57]

While I agree that aomething radical needs to be done with the route (and I would suggest getting started on HS3 ASAP, so that fast trains can be diverted onto it and the existing line can be improved under less high pressure conditions), is there anywhere that infrastructure upgrades can be made, relatively quickly and cheaply, to remove the current logjams ?

The things which look easy (OK so there may be a good reason why not)
4 track through Crossgates, like it used to be.
Westbound loop at Diggle, looks to be plenty of space, and use eastbound one regularly.
4 track between Ravensthorpe and west of Mirfield, again looks like it used to be.

Less easy but still look doable
4 track through Dewsbury instead of 3 even if it reduces speeds slightly.
4 track through Slaithwaite, would mean moving platforms backwards, but looks to be space, with fast tracks through the middle.
Sort Marsden out and create loops if possible.

Harder
Reopen old Standedge tunnels
4 track from east of Leeds to Crossgates, looks to be room.

This would create places where stoppers can be overtaken even if running late, as a lot of the problems seem to be caused by following stoppers, rather than negotiating say Leeds.

This is based on the fact that a lot of the delays occur slowly through the York Manchester corridor rather than a one off loss of time at one point of the journey.

Given the current state of things I think passing loops would be more usefully than speed increase.

Or of course, a really simple one, go back to the old timetable, which was fairly reliable

 

[Spartacus]

An up loop at Dewsbury wouldn’t be a great deal of use due to how close it would be to the loop through Mirfield, one at Batley would be useful though, and could be quite long, starting from close to where the Birstall branch used to diverge, so that trains looped would be stood a minimal amount of time.

How long was Dewsbury 4 track? It was certainly 3 in the 60s.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Could someone tell me what the good citizens of Scarborough are doing about this? It seems to have been going on long enough now not to be just a blip. It seems from afar that nothing is happening

What about the local press, radio and TV? What about local councillors and the local council? The local Chamber of Commerce? Rail Focus? Are they aware of this chaos? If not it's about time someone told them. And someone should take the lead on coordinating action.

Maybe the police involvement at Malton with disgruntled passengers reported earlier is a hook to handle the story on?

A Twitter storm to all of these organisations and people about it could produce results and get some response from TPE which from what I've read have retreated to their bunker in PR terms.

And I notice one of our regulars here is contacting their MP. But it generally needs a good number of similar comments to galvanise any MP into action, so people should contact him in numbers.

And what about regular commuters coordinating some action to let these people and organisatons know how it affecting them and their lives? These human stories were effective in getting Northern to acknowledge there was a problem.

In addition it seems other places on many parts of the TPE network are having problems too - what about a coordinated action as the issues must be similar there to a greater or lesser extent?

It took a concerted press and social media campaign across the North involving affected parties to embarrass Northern and get them to acknowledge the cock up. What is needed here is for this to be the number one issue for the town - reliable connectivity for both local people trying to get to work and especially at this time of year, tourists coming in; it must be a potential disaster for the local economy. And that worked on the Windermere branch.

It is unfortunate that this timetable disaster was eclipsed by the problems at Northern and GTR. Time now to up the ante?

Can any of our local correspondents update us on what is going on to bring this issue to the top of the local agenda?

 

[Bantamzen]

Could someone tell me what the good citizens of Scarborough are doing about this? It seems to have been going on long enough now not to be just a blip. It seems from afar that nothing is happening

What about the local press, radio and TV? What about local councillors and the local council? The local Chamber of Commerce? Rail Focus? Are they aware of this chaos? If not it's about time someone told them. And someone should take the lead on coordinating action.

Maybe the police involvement at Malton with disgruntled passengers reported earlier is a hook to handle the story on?

A Twitter storm to all of these organisations and people about it could produce results and get some response from TPE which from what I've read have retreated to their bunker in PR terms.

And I notice one of our regulars here is contacting their MP. But it generally needs a good number of similar comments to galvanise any MP into action, so people should contact him in numbers.

And what about regular commuters coordinating some action to let these people and organisatons know how it affecting them and their lives? These human stories were effective in getting Northern to acknowledge there was a problem.

In addition it seems other places on many parts of the TPE network are having problems too - what about a coordinated action as the issues must be similar there to a greater or lesser extent?

It took a concerted press and social media campaign across the North involving affected parties to embarrass Northern and get them to acknowledge the cock up. What is needed here is for this to be the number one issue for the town - reliable connectivity for both local people trying to get to work and especially at this time of year, tourists coming in; it must be a potential disaster for the local economy. And that worked on the Windermere branch.

It is unfortunate that this timetable disaster was eclipsed by the problems at Northern and GTR. Time now to up the ante?

Can any of our local correspondents update us on what is going on to bring this issue to the top of the local agenda?

Firstly I'm not a Scarborough resident, but although I agree that the profile needs raising I ask the same question as earlier, what exactly can TPE do right now? They are attempting to run services as per the franchise agreement, but it is now very obvious that the number of varied services through the TP core is where much of the problem actually lies & that the franchise requirements are flawed. TPE don't have a raft of spare units / crews to put in an emergency York-Scarborough shuttle, there's no chance of a timetable reversal now (not that there ever was), and other operators (i.e. Northern) are probably also not in a position to help out. Its a classic rock and a hard place situation. Getting it into the media, social media will raise the profile but it doesn't necessarily mean a solution will suddenly be plucked from the air.

Now I'll admit their PR on this has been dire, the top level at least are firmly in their bunkers at the moment when they should be at least explaining to the travelling public what options they are exploring, and why it may take a while to resolve. And most certainly they should be at least leasing some semi-permanent replacement buses to shuttle between Malton and Scarborough whenever needed to at least get some passengers moving. But as the discussion in the last few posts shows, there are no quick and easy solutions available. The whole TPE / Northern timetable recasts, hand in hand with late running engineering works, delayed training, cascades etc has led to the perfect storm we see now.

 

[Senex]

Firstly I'm not a Scarborough resident, but although I agree that the profile needs raising I ask the same question as earlier, what exactly can TPE do right now? They are attempting to run services as per the franchise agreement, but it is now very obvious that the number of varied services through the TP core is where much of the problem actually lies & that the franchise requirements are flawed. TPE don't have a raft of spare units / crews to put in an emergency York-Scarborough shuttle, there's no chance of a timetable reversal now (not that there ever was), and other operators (i.e. Northern) are probably also not in a position to help out. Its a classic rock and a hard place situation. Getting it into the media, social media will raise the profile but it doesn't necessarily mean a solution will suddenly be plucked from the air.

Now I'll admit their PR on this has been dire, the top level at least are firmly in their bunkers at the moment when they should be at least explaining to the travelling public what options they are exploring, and why it may take a while to resolve. And most certainly they should be at least leasing some semi-permanent replacement buses to shuttle between Malton and Scarborough whenever needed to at least get some passengers moving. But as the discussion in the last few posts shows, there are no quick and easy solutions available. The whole TPE / Northern timetable recasts, hand in hand with late running engineering works, delayed training, cascades etc has led to the perfect storm we see now.

I watch this from York, luckily not needing to be a regular user of Scarborough service. Two aspects strike me. The first is what seems to be the relative media silence from the people and local authority of Scarborough when I would have expected them to be making their dissatisfaction with the TPE chaos very loudly know to all and sundry, and particularly to their local MPs and to the far-away and uncaring lords and masters of the DfT. Certainly it doesn't mean a solution will suddenly be plucked from the air, but it would mean that the situation was clearly on the radar just as much as the Thameslink chaos so much closer to Whitehall. Secondly, there is the total silence of TPE and the company's apparent failure to do anything to help out the passengers it is so inconveniencing. We know that TPE has no spare train-sets, but is there no rolling stock anywhere that could not be used for a simple York-Scarborough shuttle? Is TPE so terrified of saying anything that might annoy the politicians and their civil servant minions in DfT that it chooses to keep silent (an understandable if reprehensible position), or is it just a company that has no interest at all in looking after its customers (not understandable but equally reprehensible)?

 

[scarby]

We know that TPE has no spare train-sets

Yes it does, it has two spare train sets, and Transpennine Express is not meeting its obligations in the franchise agreement by not using the "2x5 coach rakes" of Mark 3 stock, specified in Schedule 1.7, "The train fleet".

Obviously this 534-page document is full of complex legal content, but it does say these will be "introduce[d] into revenue earning passenger service", and I believe Transpennine Express wiggled out of this by running them in a few ghost trains between Piccadilly and Manchester Airport after Christmas, which may get them off the hook legally, though it does also state that "The Franchisee shall maintain the composition of the Train Fleet during the Franchise Term" and that they are "available for deployment", but I suppose they may claim that to be the case.

However, this strikes me as a very disingenuous way of going about things by Transpennine Express.

 

[Darandio]

You do know about the whole argument and petitioning regarding the accessibility provision of the Mk3 stock, right?

 

[mike57]

Following on from posts 203-4-5:

Would turning back Scarborough services from the NW at York and running York Scarborough as a shuttle need extra units, as there are usually 2 units on the branch anyway as far as I can tell. At York using platform 2 would mean the the shuttle wouldn't be affected by 'congestion' at York.

TPE have the locos and Mk3s but chose not to use them. I can see the problems on the Scarborough service, but why not use them on the core route Manchester York, where at worst disabled passengers would have faced a 15 min wait at worst.

What will happen when Liverpool reopens, things will get even worse

I am gathering 3 weeks worth of data before firing letters off (just got first weeks worth). Facts get more attention than general service is rubbish type comments. I plan to copy in local radio and newspapers

 

[BeHereNow]

TPEx's latest performance report is here, and cancellation percentages can be inferred from this

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/~/media...e-performance-report-period-03-2018.pdf?la=en

 

[scarby]

You do know about the whole argument and petitioning regarding the accessibility provision of the Mk3 stock, right?

I don't know the whole argument, no; I'm aware there was discontent over it. Obviously we all want accessibility for all, but as things stand today surely there's other old stock running around the network daily with similar access issues? There are sadly even some stations, and busy stations too, only with steep steps to the platform, but they still use them.

 

[Bantamzen]

Following on from posts 203-4-5:

Would turning back Scarborough services from the NW at York and running York Scarborough as a shuttle need extra units, as there are usually 2 units on the branch anyway as far as I can tell. At York using platform 2 would mean the the shuttle wouldn't be affected by 'congestion' at York.

It might be possible, however for most of the day the westbound services leave York at xx:38, with the eastbound setting off at xx:45 meaning that a unit / crew working the core would be sat around at York for close to an hour without a major timetable change.

TPE have the locos and Mk3s but chose not to use them. I can see the problems on the Scarborough service, but why not use them on the core route Manchester York, where at worst disabled passengers would have faced a 15 min wait at worst.

#canofworms

Seriously though, the MKIII option along the core has been debated in various other threads, with members representing disabled campaign groups making it clear that this would not be acceptable in some situations. Whether or not splitting at York might resolve some of this is not known, but if some were travelling Scarborough to Liverpool there would still be a risk of anything up to an hour wait, a facet that has been made clear would not be acceptable. And to be honest this boat has now all but sailed.

What will happen when Liverpool reopens, things will get even worse

Its yet to be really tested along the Chat Moss section, so we'll have to wait and see but it is a possibility. Saying that it is entirely possible that services might still be turned at Victoria if running really late, but the main problem is through the York-Manchester core where a lot of the delays mount up.

I am gathering 3 weeks worth of data before firing letters off (just got first weeks worth). Facts get more attention than general service is rubbish type comments. I plan to copy in local radio and newspapers

A good idea, although you may want to still have a headline figure such as xx% of services late & xx% stopped at Malton to engage much of the public. It might also be prudent to pull together some data on running through the core to put alongside, highlighting where the main problem lies. Otherwise you risk a sticking plaster solution, such as Northern's decision to pull all services from Windemere and replace them throughout with RRBs!!