Running trains is complicated and there is no simple solution

[DJL]

I always forget that - and I use them every day! (from SMY not ORP - but same diff.)

But still it must complicate things because the SE side of the operation has to time well with the FCC side...

 

[Bald Rick]

But still it must complicate things because the SE side of the operation has to time well with the FCC side...

A walk in the park compared to the 2018 Thameslink timetable!!

 

[DJL]

A walk in the park compared to the 2018 Thameslink timetable!!

I dread to think how the core is going to cope with 32tph when it struggles already.

Ok the 319s are old but It was pointed out recently that new trains tend to have teething troubles.
One breakdown in the core and everything is late for hours.

Let's just hope the new operators don't use the current solution of "chuck everyone off and turn the rain around early and/or skip busy stops" in the peak direction.
( A great way to get the train back on time but terrible customer service! )

</rant>

 

[Bald Rick]

Only 24tph but the effect will be much the same.

 

[DJL]

Only 24tph but the effect will be much the same.

hmm, thought I'd read 32 somewhere. Guess not

 

[LBSCR Times]

Let's just hope the new operators don't use the current solution of "chuck everyone off and turn the rain around early and/or skip busy stops" in the peak direction.
( A great way to get the train back on time but terrible customer service! )

</rant>

If it is Southern (or their equivalent), then they are a lot worse for doing this than FCC are at present.......

 

[swt_passenger]

hmm, thought I'd read 32 somewhere. Guess not

No you have read a higher figure somewhere, it's the design capability, although it is 30 tph (that is shown as a 2 minute headway in the Thameslink 'train control spec' - part of the ITT information). It's to allow for short periods of higher capacity during perturbation recovery. Basically it is the built in margin to allow a reliable normal service at 24 tph:

Normal operation, the headway of 2½ minutes comprises 75 seconds platform reoccupation, 45 seconds dwell time and 30 seconds of operating margin.

During service recovery, for short periods of time, a headway of 2 minutes is required, comprising 75 seconds platform reoccupation, 45 seconds dwell time and no operating margin

 

[DJL]

No you have read a higher figure somewhere, it's the design capability, although it is 30 tph (that is shown as a 2 minute headway in the Thameslink 'train control spec' - part of the ITT information). It's to allow for short periods of higher capacity during perturbation recovery. Basically it is the built in margin to allow a reliable normal service at 24 tph:

ahh, of course - so basically at 10% (ish) margin to help recovery.
Makes sense really

 

[BW]

Worse is when you get ones like #Wool or #Healing or even #University.

#NewBarnet - a mixture of ECML updates and people's haircuts.

 

[infobleep]

Even if you could simply restart the trainset after a problem has cleared, and drop straight into the next iteration of a regular pattern (which probably wouldn't be much easier than trying to pick up appropriate workings on an irregular service anyway), you'd still have the significant problem of drivers and guards (who might be due a PNB, or need to get back to somewhere else, or were booked to be relieved at X whilst the diagram that they've dropped onto works through so there's no-one to relieve) and trains (which aren't such a problem in the short term, but need to end up in the right place by the end of the day for fuelling, maintenance etc.) all being in the wrong place. Plus, an 'irregular' service is often necessary in the peaks, even where it follows a standard pattern for the rest of the day, to make best use of the capacity available, make additional calls and so on.

Or in some cases removing calls because the intrastruture can't cope with the capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Planners dont set out to make services too complex at all.....they are simply reacting to the needs of the whole network which has multi stakeholders with different aspirations. A big hurdle to overcome is the fact that most routes carry mixed traffic ( High Speed , Suburban and Freight ).

There is a general idea at higher levels of management that we should be looking to run fewer but longer trains......this has some merit in my opinion

At which point they can close down Clapham Junction completely unless they decide it is worth investing in longer platforms at the station, at great expense of course.

Yes I know they are lengthening platform 17 so clearly they do think it's worth investing in it, at great expense no doubt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another example of why it's complicated.

Damian H ‏@madian11 45m
@SW_Trains Why cancel Waterloo to Portsmouth trains that tie up with the IOW ferry. Now 45 min wait at Portsmouth.Why not 46 min past train?
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South West Trains ‏@SW_Trains 22m
@madian11 I am sorry about this. We have a major landslip that is causing severe disruption
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4:11 AM - 27 Dec 13 · Details

There are just so many things planners have to think of when arranging services. They can't always think of everything. There again if they did do what the person suggested, that might not even tie in with staffing patterns or any other number of things, so they may have actually thought of it and dismissed it as unworkable.

 

[island]

No you have read a higher figure somewhere, it's the design capability, although it is 30 tph (that is shown as a 2 minute headway in the Thameslink 'train control spec' - part of the ITT information). It's to allow for short periods of higher capacity during perturbation recovery. Basically it is the built in margin to allow a reliable normal service at 24 tph:

I challenge anyone to get a train emptied, refilled, dispatched and away within 45 seconds at London Bridge in the peak

 

[34D]

On the London Overground East London Line we regularly do this during severe disruption. All trains sent back in to the depot and we pick up next working past New Cross Gate or Surrey Quays. Usually means we can get the service back to normal in about an hour.

By next, do you mean the next service that unit/driver were due to operate?

 

[Bald Rick]

I challenge anyone to get a train emptied, refilled, dispatched and away within 45 seconds at London Bridge in the peak

Challenge accepted. For TL core services only from 2018.

(in any event, London Bridge Thameslink services will have a 90 sec dwell time).

 

[A-driver]

Challenge accepted. For TL core services only from 2018.



(in any event, London Bridge Thameslink services will have a 90 sec dwell time).

I'll hold you to that as I see no way that the TL core will run close to time after it is fully opened. Just getting the trains as far as the core on time will be an achievement but loading and unloading passengers at central stations seems fantasy land!

 

[infobleep]

Having you to traveled on tube trains I know what it's like. Train arrives slightly late and everyone gets on. Takes longer which delays it and in turn delays the ones behind.

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[Bald Rick]

I'll hold you to that as I see no way that the TL core will run close to time after it is fully opened. Just getting the trains as far as the core on time will be an achievement but loading and unloading passengers at central stations seems fantasy land!

When you see inside the train, you will get an idea of how it will work. But you are right, the challenge is getting them to the core on time.

 

[jon0844]

What gets me with the tube trains is when there's another one in 1 minute, and another in 2... Why struggle to get on when the next one (or one after) may be much quieter and give a more comfortable ride? Especially true if there was a gap in service before and the crowding was due to that.

But, for the TV core, not every next train will stop at the same places so people won't want to wait. They'll take as long as possible to board and hold the doors as necessary. I can almost guarantee chaos in the peaks or during special events with more numbers than normal.

 

[A-driver]

When you see inside the train, you will get an idea of how it will work. But you are right, the challenge is getting them to the core on time.

I have already seen photos of mock ups etc and know that ideas are planned to spread the passengers out but am still very doubtful it is as simple as wider doors, larger vestibules and aisles and electric signs telling people there is space in coaches 7&8. If people want the front coach to be near the station exit when they alight they will ignore all that and stand in the front coach. Technology and bigger doors can't change habits. Even now drivers make announcements to speed up boarding by pointing out that no one is using the half empty back coaches
and It falls on deaf ears. I'm pretty sure the core will be similar and lead to longer than planned dwell times.

 

[DJL]

Blackfriars currently is actually a pretty quiet station by central London standards. And still they are already struggling

 

[edwin_m]

Having you to traveled on tube trains I know what it's like. Train arrives slightly late and everyone gets on. Takes longer which delays it and in turn delays the ones behind.

The controller should then intervene and instruct the relevant trains to hold back until the even interval is restored. This is known as regulation. It will be interesting to see whether this is applied on Thameslink, where trains have to hit their timetables slots on the outer routes. Unlike the Tube where it doesn't matter much if the whole service shifts back by a few minutes.

 

[455driver]

They wont be able to hold trains back because they will have their allocated slot on the Mainlines at either end, the tube is easy because all trains go to the same place, that wont be the case on Thameslink 2000, the timetable might work on a computer where the crowds will all be spaced out on the platforms and trains which simply wont be the case in the real world.

I am with A Driver on this and the timetable will very quickly be altered to increase the dwell times in the core because this 45 second stuff is dreamworks quality stuff.

 

[DJL]

If they alter the timetable to increase dwell time doesn't that mean a lower frequency of trains?

Perhaps what they'll actually end up doing is employ lot's of staff to either a) push people onto the train (I've seen a video of this somewhere - think it was in Japan?) or b) shout at people to move down the platform.

I actually think it should be against the rules to block deliberately the doors.

My sister was on a train recently which was stuck at London Bridge for over 5 mins (I think it was closer to 10) and she said it was all down to one man who was blocking the doors and refused to leave the train when it was quite clear he wasn't going to be getting on!

 

[A-driver]

If they alter the timetable to increase dwell time doesn't that mean a lower frequency of trains?



Perhaps what they'll actually end up doing is employ lot's of staff to either a) push people onto the train (I've seen a video of this somewhere - think it was in Japan?) or b) shout at people to move down the platform.



I actually think it should be against the rules to block deliberately the doors.



My sister was on a train recently which was stuck at London Bridge for over 5 mins (I think it was closer to 10) and she said it was all down to one man who was blocking the doors and refused to leave the train when it was quite clear he wasn't going to be getting on!

Pushing may work. Electric cattle prods may be better but shouting at people and making announcements most certainly does not have any effect whatsoever.

 

[Bald Rick]

The planned dwells are 60 seconds in the core, 90 seconds at London Bridge under normal operation.

45 seconds will only be used in times of disruption.

If you time the dwells today (and I have, repeatedly, for 2 years), trains normally have station duties complete within 45 seconds, even in the peak. The exception is St Pancras where it is sometimes, but by no means always, around a minute in the peak, often due to luggage (and people) left in doorways slowing the alighting / boarding process at one or two sets of doors. The other exception is wherever a Class 377 changes power, which is never less than 75 seconds, and often up to 120. That won't be a problem with the new trains.

I have regulalrly timed dwells under 20 seconds in the peak when trains are running slightly late; there is no reason to believe this will be any worse in 2018 with high capacity trains, big doorways, better CIS and more staff on the platforms 'offering advice' at a decent volume.

 

[The Planner]

Platform staff do make a significant difference to dwell times. If the operation is slick then dwells do come down.

 

[A-driver]

The planned dwells are 60 seconds in the core, 90 seconds at London Bridge under normal operation.

45 seconds will only be used in times of disruption.

If you time the dwells today (and I have, repeatedly, for 2 years), trains normally have station duties complete within 45 seconds, even in the peak. The exception is St Pancras where it is sometimes, but by no means always, around a minute in the peak, often due to luggage (and people) left in doorways slowing the alighting / boarding process at one or two sets of doors. The other exception is wherever a Class 377 changes power, which is never less than 75 seconds, and often up to 120. That won't be a problem with the new trains.

I have regulalrly timed dwells under 20 seconds in the peak when trains are running slightly late; there is no reason to believe this will be any worse in 2018 with high capacity trains, big doorways, better CIS and more staff on the platforms 'offering advice' at a decent volume.

I'm not trying to argue or be a pessimist saying "it won't work" as I'm sure things will be put in place to help but I'd add to what you say above that at the moment the north bound platforms have a train all stations to St. Albans and then a train fast to St. Albans then all stations to Bedford. That means people on the platforms are there for 1 of 2 trains, pretty much the same southbound give or take. Add in northbound trains to St. Albans, Bedford, peterbourgh, Cambridge and welwyn you get far more people crowding platforms, standing up against the train to be first on the next one and restricting the flow of people, blocking up the escalators causing congestion getting off the platform etc and those dwell times increase. Plus add minor disruption (I know railways don't plan for disruption but let's face it, it happens and the more they play about with it the worse the east coast mainline will get) all you need is slight confusion over where a train is stopping or a single DOO monitor failing in the cab resulting on degraded dispatch (very, very difficult we the new cab design) or a train taking too long to switch voltages at Farringdon and there are major problems.

I am only saying this being that I witness daily what happens at places like hitchin, Finsbury park and kings cross daily with minimal delays causing havoc in the rush hour, and the. Imagine how that will go in the core.

 

[infobleep]

They wont be able to hold trains back because they will have their allocated slot on the Mainlines at either end, the tube is easy because all trains go to the same place, that wont be the case on Thameslink 2000, the timetable might work on a computer where the crowds will all be spaced out on the platforms and trains which simply wont be the case in the real world.

I am with A Driver on this and the timetable will very quickly be altered to increase the dwell times in the core because this 45 second stuff is dreamworks quality stuff.

They don't all go to the same place on the outskirts. For example Harrow and Wealdstone only has trains every 10 minutes. A few minutes delay means a few minutes delay to the return journey and it could soon mount up.

As for going down the platform. If you are one busy end, you're not going to have time to get to the other end before the train leaves.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The planned dwells are 60 seconds in the core, 90 seconds at London Bridge under normal operation.

45 seconds will only be used in times of disruption.

If you time the dwells today (and I have, repeatedly, for 2 years), trains normally have station duties complete within 45 seconds, even in the peak. The exception is St Pancras where it is sometimes, but by no means always, around a minute in the peak, often due to luggage (and people) left in doorways slowing the alighting / boarding process at one or two sets of doors. The other exception is wherever a Class 377 changes power, which is never less than 75 seconds, and often up to 120. That won't be a problem with the new trains.

I have regulalrly timed dwells under 20 seconds in the peak when trains are running slightly late; there is no reason to believe this will be any worse in 2018 with high capacity trains, big doorways, better CIS and more staff on the platforms 'offering advice' at a decent volume.

What makes it so quick? The dwell times for the 17.39 and 18.40 Surbiton to Basingstoke services are much longer than that. 2 minutes or more, although I've not timed it to be fair.

 

[DJL]

That won't be a problem with the new trains.

What makes you say that?
Do the new trains not need to switch or is it somehow quicker?

Are there more platforms at voltage switchover points? I thought it was 2 platforms all the way through the core but I've actually never been through so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Bald Rick]

What makes you say that?
Do the new trains not need to switch or is it somehow quicker?

Are there more platforms at voltage switchover points? I thought it was 2 platforms all the way through the core but I've actually never been through so maybe I'm wrong.

377s reboot the traction system when they switch. Hence the delay. 319s are much quicker. 700s will be quicker still, and do it automatically, ie the driver doesn't have to do anything.

 

[petersi]

on the ECML side of Thameslink I do not understand how they are going to deliver the trains at the right time and order to Thameslink core. I image confusion as trains arrive out of sequence.

Area of delay
Waiting for platform at Hitchin
Welwyn Viaduct
Welwyn Garden city Slow trains waiting for Semi fast trains to pass on the Welwyn Flyover

These are things that happen several times a day.


This is just going to extend dwell times in the core probably more at Black Fryers and London bridge than other stations. Also means the communication to customers needs to be Very good