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Running trains is complicated and there is no simple solution

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swt_passenger

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...700s will be quicker still, and do it automatically, ie the driver doesn't have to do anything.

They'll also be able to do it while moving, according to the various train and infrastructure technical specs online.

So what happens now is of little or no relevance to the final procedure at all.
 
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DJL

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Perhaps the 377s were not originally intended to be switching quite as often as they do!

Ironic that the older 319s are actually better in this regard.

I wonder why they didn't extend the wires and/or 3rd rail out of the core to somewhere with more space to reduce the effect of the switchover delay.

It's not particularly far to Elephant & Castle, for example, and here increased dwell times are less of an issue due to having 4 platforms instead of 2, and not all the trains go there.
It would also mean a train which fails to switch to AC can trundle in to platform 3/4 at Blackfriars instead of squeezing in to a tiny siding


Perhaps they decided that since the new trains will "solve" the issue moving the switchover point would be needlessly expensive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They'll also be able to do it while moving

Now that sounds more like it!

So what happens now is of little or no relevance to the final procedure at all.

As I suspected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
on the ECML side of Thameslink I do not understand how they are going to deliver the trains at the right time and order to Thameslink core. I image confusion as trains arrive out of sequence.

Trains often arrive out of order at Blackfriars now.
In the southbound direction the display board often sees to get confused about which of 2 trains will arrive in the next 1-2 mins, which odd given that once in the core they can't change order!
 

swt_passenger

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I wonder why they didn't extend the wires and/or 3rd rail out of the core to somewhere with more space to reduce the effect of the switchover delay.

It was to avoid having to AC immunise the DC lines and their signalling that cross underneath the Thameslink route heading to/from Waterloo East. It was explained in one of the early Thameslink 2000 papers. (I think subsequently it also meant the physical design of Blackfriars station's new roof would be simpler all round.)

Even if it were less electrically or technically challenging, once you get past the core section southbound you have two routes, so you'd have to double the amount of hardware at the very least.

There is a highly complex set of contactors and switchgear (at Ludgate Cellars - between Blackfriars and City T/L) that controls the trackside aspects of the AC/DC changeover system - that system would have to be doubled up to cover two areas. The up and down track sections between City and Farringdon stations inclusive have both AC and DC power supplies, and the earth and traction return systems are switchable between AC and DC modes - this can happen progressively as a train moves between the two stations, there isn't an existing system of such complexity anywhere, as far as I am aware.
 

DJL

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It was to avoid having to AC immunise the DC lines and their signalling that cross underneath the Thameslink route heading to/from Waterloo East. It was explained in one of the early Thameslink 2000 papers. (I think subsequently it also meant the physical design of Blackfriars station's new roof would be simpler all round.)

Even if it were less electrically or technically challenging, once you get past the core section southbound you have two routes, so you'd have to double the amount of hardware at the very least.

There is a highly complex set of contactors and switchgear (at Ludgate Cellars - between Blackfriars and City T/L) that controls the trackside aspects of the AC/DC changeover system - that system would have to be doubled up to cover two areas. The up and down track sections between City and Farringdon stations inclusive have both AC and DC power supplies, and the earth and traction return systems are switchable between AC and DC modes - this can happen progressively as a train moves between the two stations, there isn't an existing system of such complexity anywhere, as far as I am aware.

Makes sense.

I presume there is an equally good reason why the 3rd rail couldn't be extended northwards
 

Bald Rick

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Makes sense.

I presume there is an equally good reason why the 3rd rail couldn't be extended northwards

The same reason as not extending the wires south, it would mean installing another set of contractor kit or some other method of switching the earthing. Even where it is now, with all the protection kit in, is a pain; the return current from trains on DC is constantly trying to get to the AC section (the DC substation is between Blackfriars and City TL) This burns out the insulated block joints in the rails at Blackfriars every 6 months or so.

Also, for those of us who have managed both third rail and OLE railways, the former is a right royal pain in the derrière across the business, from staff safety to track maintenance to signal engineering complications to quantity of distribution kit etc etc.
 

DJL

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The same reason as not extending the wires south, it would mean installing another set of contractor kit or some other method of switching the earthing. Even where it is now, with all the protection kit in, is a pain; the return current from trains on DC is constantly trying to get to the AC section (the DC substation is between Blackfriars and City TL) This burns out the insulated block joints in the rails at Blackfriars every 6 months or so.

Also, for those of us who have managed both third rail and OLE railways, the former is a right royal pain in the derrière across the business, from staff safety to track maintenance to signal engineering complications to quantity of distribution kit etc etc.


6 months? ouch!

It's a shame the whole thing wasn't standardised a long time ago really. I have heard that the (very) long term plan is to convert some existing 3rd rail areas to OHLE. I guess from many points of view this can't come soon enough.
But I imagine that given the above the desire would be to switch large areas from one to the other overnight rather than have lots of large overlaps. This is no small task!
 

island

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What gets me with the tube trains is when there's another one in 1 minute, and another in 2... Why struggle to get on when the next one (or one after) may be much quieter and give a more comfortable ride? Especially true if there was a gap in service before and the crowding was due to that.

But, for the TV core, not every next train will stop at the same places so people won't want to wait. They'll take as long as possible to board and hold the doors as necessary. I can almost guarantee chaos in the peaks or during special events with more numbers than normal.

Exactly. I don't know how many of you have been at London Bridge platform 6 in the peaks, but the up Charing Cross services despite being something like 26tph are permanently delayed because everyone wants to get on the first two sets of doors, normally they crowd the doors rather than standing aside so only one person can get off at a time, and in the event the CD is given while people are still trying to get on, they just hold back the doors.

No amount of manual or automated announcements nor platform staff shouting at people has any effect whatsoever and the reason is simple: no individual wants to take a personal cost in the form of having further to walk up the platform at Charing Cross, even though if everyone did it the train would be away quicker and it would more than negate the extra walking time.

It's not like the tube even though the frequency is similar and people will just keep pushing on and shouting "can you move down please" even when the carriage (not, of course, the full train) is completely wedged.
 

ECML180

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Perhaps the type of boarding used on some rollercoasters would improve distribution, where boarding passengers are held in 'pens' across the length of the platform, such that one opens in line with a door meaning that each time a train arrives a predetermined amount of people board at each door. Each pen could be refilled between trains.
 
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