Royal Mail to cease using trains

[Class15]

A modern network would have a far greater route mileage electrified for which electric locos would be needed. Add to that, DB (and its predecessors) non-use of electric traction is unforgivable.

I could not agree more. This never happened under BR. Fingers crossed GBR gets control of freight at some point rather than these private companies.

 

[zwk500]

A modern network would have a far greater route mileage electrified for which electric locos would be needed. Add to that, DB (and its predecessors) non-use of electric traction is unforgivable.

The people you should be railing against are those who allowed the price of electricity to exceed the price of diesel. And that isn't DB's board.

 

[cav1975]

Sounds perfectly like Royal Mail to me

ANYTHING with more than 10 years of service - they want to get rid of it....

I'm not sure that you are right here. The vast majority of Royal Mail delivery vans (Medway towns) round here appear to be 09 or 10 plates, so about 15 years old. Very tatty and don't give you confidence in RM or their services.

 

[The_Train]

RM is all about cost cutting. It's been the same ever since it was sold off to the highest bidder and it became about lining the shareholders' pockets

 

[DBS92042]

Will probably be down to another doomed unit headed for Newport today from Ilford

Another try for 325009 tomorrow 13/11:

Realtime Trains | 4Z36 1042 Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 13/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 4Z36 1042 departure from Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 13/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Trainbike46]

A modern network would have a far greater route mileage electrified for which electric locos would be needed. Add to that, DB (and its predecessors) non-use of electric traction is unforgivable.

If you ran a commercial operation, would you use electric locomotives if doing so cost more than running diesels, purely because it's better for the environment? Especially if your customers were not prepared to pay more for AC traction so you had to suck up the additional cost yourself? Seems like a pretty straightforward commercial decision to me.

The people you should be railing against are those who allowed the price of electricity to exceed the price of diesel. And that isn't DB's board.

I agree railway freight should be electric as much as possible.

However, the incentives for the (private) FOCs aren't quite right at the moment - railway diesel is too cheap, and UK electricity is too expensive.

When we get periods of time gas isn't part of the electricity mix (scheduled to start happening in 2025), electricity prices should start to fall, as they won't be set by gas prices anymore for at least part of the time.

This is all further complicated by the fact that, all else being equal, having fewer types of locos is usually cheaper than having more types of locos, as you need less staff training/refreshers, etc. Of course, every FOC needs diesel locos, so for FOCs with more locos than they have work for (such as DB/EWS), there is a continuous draw to stop using the electric locos.

 

[Adrian Barr]

4Z71 21:22 Crewe Electric Depot - Newport AD Junction yard is now on the run.

66102 hauling 325008 / 325016 / 325004 (12 coaches in total)

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R31303/2024-11-12/detailed

 

[Ewan M]

329009 yet to shift the short distance to Sims https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R33055/2024-11-13/detailed

 

[3973EXL]

329009 yet to shift the short distance to Sims https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R33055/2024-11-13/detailed

4Z36 to SIMS 325016/004

008/009 in AD Junction

Realtime Trains | 0Z91 2156 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Willesden Prdc | 14/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 0Z91 2156 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Willesden Prdc on 14/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 4Z91 0357 Willesden Prdc to Crewe T.M.D. (E) | 15/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 4Z91 0357 departure from Willesden Prdc to Crewe T.M.D. (E) on 15/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Why is the name Sims still used? The site is now a company called Unimetals, no?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Here’s something interesting…. a union rep has just claimed that there will be some usage of trains over Christmas by Royal Mail.
Presumably stock hired-in?
I have no further details at present.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why is the name Sims still used? The site is now a company called Unimetals, no?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Perhaps people read the RTT name for the location as being correct, however the rail location name can take years to be updated, (that’s if it ever happens).

Since found by Googling that the Unimetals take over of Sims was announced in August just gone, but for completion during 2025…

 

[Adrian Barr]

Here’s something interesting…. a union rep has just claimed that there will be some usage of trains over Christmas by Royal Mail.

That's intriguing...

A couple of interesting pictures of 325s at Newport AD Junction yard taken earlier this week:
The 3 units of 4Z71 (see post #397) after arrival on Wednesday morning, together with 325009 in the sidings: https://www.flickr.com/photos/148982509@N03/54137634805/
325009 and 325008 left in the sidings after the departure of 325016 + 325004 to Newport Docks on Wednesday's 4Z36 (as per post #399): https://www.flickr.com/photos/turners_pics/54138058287/

The 4Z91 schedule this morning (Willesden PRDC to Crewe Electric Depot) was cancelled in the end.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Here’s something interesting…. a union rep has just claimed that there will be some usage of trains over Christmas by Royal Mail.
Presumably stock hired-in?
I have no further details at present.

It seems that the union rep in question is now saying some off-the-cuff remarks were misinterpreted. We await developments (or not).

 

[zwk500]

Here’s something interesting…. a union rep has just claimed that there will be some usage of trains over Christmas by Royal Mail.
Presumably stock hired-in?
I have no further details at present.

It seems that the union rep in question is now saying some off-the-cuff remarks were misinterpreted. We await developments (or not).

RM's original announcement did say they'd continue to use rail, just not dedicated trains:

A Royal Mail spokesperson said it was becoming difficult to secure parts for maintenance and, after reviewing plans to acquire new trains, it was decided that using other commercial rail services and increasing road deliveries was a better option.

They said: “To improve reliability, increase cost effectiveness and remain consistent with our environmental goals, over the coming months we will cease operating our own trains while continuing to use a mix of rail, road and air to transport mail to all corners of the UK.”

(From https://www.theguardian.com/busines...nd-of-the-line-for-royal-mails-freight-trains)

Putting some swapbodies or containers on a freightliner train from e.g. Daventry to Coatbridge would be very simple, or they could even contract with Orion for a seasonal parcels flow. The trains won't be RM branded but they also then don't necessarily need to enter into a big contract with a particular FOC.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

RM's original announcement did say they'd continue to use rail, just not dedicated trains:

(From https://www.theguardian.com/busines...nd-of-the-line-for-royal-mails-freight-trains)

Putting some swapbodies or containers on a freightliner train from e.g. Daventry to Coatbridge would be very simple, or they could even contract with Orion for a seasonal parcels flow. The trains won't be RM branded but they also then don't necessarily need to enter into a big contract with a particular FOC.

I thought the Orion ex-319 trains were defunct? We did at one time have a regular Orion train at PRDC for a short while, but it was ceased after a few months. It ran in the 12:26 to Warrington path.

 

[zwk500]

I thought the Orion ex-319 trains were defunct? We did at one time have a regular Orion train at PRDC for a short while, but it was ceased after a few months. It ran in the 12:26 to Warrington path.

I've lost track of what exactly has happened to Orion or similar proposals, but the point still stands - there is nothing preventing Royal Mail contracting with existing FOCs or wider logistics company to carry mail by rail, and they have indicated this remains part of their plans going forward. They just won't be using their own dedicated units.

If a flow is highly seasonable, I can see why it makes a lot more commercial sense to contract with somebody for the length of time you need that capacity, rather than have your own units sitting under-utilised for the rest of the year.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Parcels are busy throughout the year these days, they just peak around Amazon Prime Day, Black Friday and Christmas

 

[D365]

The 325s that went to Newport are currently awaiting onward movement from Newport ADJ to Unimetals. Going by Google Maps, it’s basically the same site as Sims.

Should have gone to Sims but they didn't answer, so they were left with a neighbour.

Unimetals is apparently the new parent company for Sims.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Found an old photo of the Orion train at Princess Royal Distribution Centre, on 8th October 2021.
An eager reception party of RM people stood waiting on the Platform 1 and 2 island… and I could see how the points were set… and photographed it rolling into Platform 3 !!

Note that it still bore the number 319373

 

[Trainbike46]

Why is the name Sims still used? The site is now a company called Unimetals, no?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Here’s something interesting…. a union rep has just claimed that there will be some usage of trains over Christmas by Royal Mail.
Presumably stock hired-in?
I have no further details at present.

Hasn't royal mail contracted varamis in the past to do runs for them at busy times?

 

[swt_passenger]

Unimetals is apparently the new parent company for Sims.

It’s a purchase of a division. Sims have sold their operation known as “UK Metal” to Unimetals, but that’s not their whole business. This is what I found before writing my earlier post #401 but I thought it’s probably off topic for this thread:

Sims Ltd., headquartered in Australia, has entered into a binding agreement to sell its U.K. Metal business (UKM) to London-based Unimetals Group Ltd.

https://www.recyclingtoday.com/news/sims-ltd-to-sell-uk-metals-business/

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Hasn't royal mail contracted varamis in the past to do runs for them at busy times?

No.
But there have been some members of their fleet stabled tantalising close to the end of Platform 1 at PRDC at various times in the past 12 months

(image shows Varamis unit 321419 at the buffer stops outside PRDC on 23/5/2024, seen from the window of a southbound Bakerloo line train)

 

[Adrian Barr]

The two 325s which remained in Newport AD Junction yard have now moved to Unimetals at Newport Docks.

66142 took 325008 to the scrapyard on Friday (15th November) as 4Z36

66168 took 325009 to the scrapyard this morning, also as 4Z36

 

[richard_S]

With Royal mail stopping the rail traffic and switching to road could come back and bite them in the ar$e. Charging for roads by a pence per mile could come in. It would make bulk mail a lot cheaper by rail on long distance runs. I think royal mail are making a quick buck that will cost them in the long term.

 

[Nym]

With Royal mail stopping the rail traffic and switching to road could come back and bite them in the ar$e. Charging for roads by a pence per mile could come in. It would make bulk mail a lot cheaper by rail on long distance runs. I think royal mail are making a quick buck that will cost them in the long term.

Honestly the capacity afforded by a maximum of 64 carriages of train isn't evening going to be a rounding error in that of the road fleet in terms of cost impact for road pricing.

"6200 Trucks and Trailers" according to RM themselves.

Standard internal length of one of these trailers is around 13.4m. The available internal length on a 20m unit EMU is around 17m if we're being super generous, the recent conversions have it around the same.

So even if you could get the fleet utilisation of the rail fleet as high as the road fleet, which it's NEVER been, you'd be looking at around 1.4% impact on the cost of fleet operation in terms of road pricing, assuming the operation of the train was free, which is very much is not.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Royal Mail have abandoned using trains before. Only to reverse the decision less than 18 months later.

They ARE ceasing use of the 325s.

But the ability to convey 708 Yorks (wheeled containers) of approximately 140,000 parcels between PDDC in North West London and Shieldmuir in about 7.5 hours (and the same number in the reverse direction) is something I feel confident they will do again, even if only as a trial, with commercial operators.
Their press release did say they would continue to use a mix of air, road and rail.

 

[zwk500]

With Royal mail stopping the rail traffic and switching to road could come back and bite them in the ar$e. Charging for roads by a pence per mile could come in. It would make bulk mail a lot cheaper by rail on long distance runs. I think royal mail are making a quick buck that will cost them in the long term.

RM have explicitly said they aren't stopping mail by rail, just dedicated mail train and units. They can stick a container on an intermodal train easy enough.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Going slightly off-topic, here’s an interesting article and video about RM’s partnership with tech firm Wiliot.

“Wiliot’s sticker-like tags house tiny computers that are automatically detected by nearby Bluetooth devices as they travel through the network, removing the need for manual scanning and providing real-time feedback on location”

Royal Mail becomes world’s first delivery company to use tech innovator Wiliot’s digital tags to boost efficiency and cut carbon

Royal Mail is the first delivery company in the world to use Wiliot’s innovative tracking solution to continue to modernise its network.

www.internationaldistributionservices.com

 

[mrmartin]

RM is all about cost cutting. It's been the same ever since it was sold off to the highest bidder and it became about lining the shareholders' pockets

Yes nothing to do with the complete collapse of letter volumes and the brutal competition from Amazon, DPD et al using mostly self employed drivers...

The main market (parcels) it serves is incredibly cost focussed. That means to survive it needs to basically be a cost cutting enterprise, getting more parcels through at lower cost.

Doesn't really matter if it is state run or privately owned. If it was state run you'd almost certainly see very aggressive cost cutting - perhaps even harder than the private sector - given the state of public finances.

Clearly these trains are not useful these days with such small letter volumes (which are declining year over year). They don't work well for parcels, at a guess you'd fit 2 or 3 HGVs worth of parcels on a train, which means it doesn't work, given a train driver costs a lot more than a HGV one and if the trains were life expired then it'd be incredibly expensive to replace Vs a handful of HGVs.

 

[D365]

… and if the trains were life expired then it'd be incredibly expensive to replace Vs a handful of HGVs.

Which in this instance, they weren’t, but that’s by-the-by.