Royal Mail to cease using trains

[12LDA28C]

Which in this instance, they weren’t, but that’s by-the-by.

And yet it seems widely accepted that the 325s needed major refurbishment work to extend their lives which RM were unwilling to pay for. That seems like a reasonable definition of ‘life expired’ to me.

 

[D365]

And yet it seems widely accepted that the 325s needed major refurbishment work to extend their lives which RM were unwilling to pay for. That seems like a reasonable definition of ‘life expired’ to me.

They were due for C6 exams. Unless I’m mistaken, that doesn’t equate to ’life expired’.

Consider that, while Royal Mail is sending the 325s for scrap, companies like Varamis and Porterbrook are creating ’new’ cargo units out of redundant 321s and 769s. These are vehicles that have been worked far harder, and are in undoubtedly poorer condition than the 325s.

 

[12LDA28C]

They were due for C6 exams. Unless I’m mistaken, that doesn’t equate to ’life expired’.

Consider that, while Royal Mail is sending the 325s for scrap, companies like Varamis and Porterbrook are creating ’new’ cargo units out of redundant 321s and 769s. These are vehicles that have been worked far harder, and are in undoubtedly poorer condition than the 325s.

Does a C6 exam not require the replacement of certain components for new or reconditioned parts? How major is a C6 exam? I’d imagine it’s reasonably comprehensive.

 

[Nym]

They were due for C6 exams. Unless I’m mistaken, that doesn’t equate to ’life expired’.

Consider that, while Royal Mail is sending the 325s for scrap, companies like Varamis and Porterbrook are creating ’new’ cargo units out of redundant 321s and 769s. These are vehicles that have been worked far harder, and are in undoubtedly poorer condition than the 325s.

There were some significant overhaul parts spesific to the 325 only that were becoming difficult to find.

One also has to consider how much money got sank into the 769s on general maintenance items and what got replaced or changed over the years which would have been a lot less likely to have been done on the 325s which will likely be on their original equipment

 

[Steve Harris]

And yet it seems widely accepted that the 325s needed major refurbishment work to extend their lives which RM were unwilling to pay for. That seems like a reasonable definition of ‘life expired’ to me.

As a maintenance employee, that is called/known as "beyond economical repair", life expired is when the kit is fuber'ed (aka knackered). And as some were running until being dragged for scrap, that by itself means they fit in the BER label rather than LE.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

They don't work well for parcels, at a guess you'd fit 2 or 3 HGVs worth of parcels on a train, which means it doesn't work, given a train driver costs a lot more than a HGV one and if the trains were life expired then it'd be incredibly expensive to replace Vs a handful of HGVs.

They work perfectly well for parcels that are inside sleeved Yorks (roll containers). 708 Yorks in a 12-car train equates to almost 8 double-deck trailers. With driving hours regulations, that’s 8 drivers plus the cost of overnight accommodation, to take the same Yorks from London to Scotland. Or 16 drivers with a swapover somewhere along the route

 

[zwk500]

They work perfectly well for parcels that are inside sleeved Yorks (roll containers). 708 Yorks in a 12-car train equates to almost 8 double-deck trailers. With driving hours regulations, that’s 8 drivers plus the cost of overnight accommodation, to take the same Yorks from London to Scotland. Or 16 drivers with a swapover somewhere along the route

How many containers would you need on the back of a Class 4 intermodal between Wembley Yard and Mossend/Coatbridge to shift that volume of parcels? Obviously you'd require lorry drivers at each end, but in theory 1 driver could do multiple runs if the terminal is close enough to the mail buildings. At Wembley Yard you might even be able to avoid a lorry at all if a suitable transfer space could be set up that isn't overly complicated for the railway to get the wagons to.

 

[mrmartin]

They work perfectly well for parcels that are inside sleeved Yorks (roll containers). 708 Yorks in a 12-car train equates to almost 8 double-deck trailers. With driving hours regulations, that’s 8 drivers plus the cost of overnight accommodation, to take the same Yorks from London to Scotland. Or 16 drivers with a swapover somewhere along the route

Where did you get 12 car from? I thought they were used in 4 car formations? At which case you get 2-3 HGVs worth so totally not worth it.

 

[Tayway]

Where did you get 12 car from? I thought they were used in 4 car formations? At which case you get 2-3 HGVs worth so totally not worth it.

Most sets on the West Coast at least operated in twos and threes.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Where did you get 12 car from? I thought they were used in 4 car formations? At which case you get 2-3 HGVs worth so totally not worth it.

From experience of loading 12-car sets at PRDC, Willesden!!

 

[sh24]

Based on what I've read, the issue is the cost. Rail is consistently 40-50% more than road.

 

[HSTEd]

They work perfectly well for parcels that are inside sleeved Yorks (roll containers). 708 Yorks in a 12-car train equates to almost 8 double-deck trailers. With driving hours regulations, that’s 8 drivers plus the cost of overnight accommodation, to take the same Yorks from London to Scotland. Or 16 drivers with a swapover somewhere along the route

Those eight drivers can drive their eight lorries at eight different times and to up to eight different destinations.

This has major operational savings beyond simple drivers.

 

[ExRes]

Where did you get 12 car from? I thought they were used in 4 car formations? At which case you get 2-3 HGVs worth so totally not worth it.

They operated as 4, 8 or 12 car sets and did so from day one

 

[mrmartin]

Ok - fair enough re formation length.

I still don't think it changes much though. RM operates nearly 7000 HGVs, vs 64 cars of class 325. It's an enormous operational overhead for 1% of the capacity of the HGV network? I don't think it's fair to compare 8 drivers vs 1 train driver either; as I imagine there are various support staff needed just for rail.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Of course there are ‘support staff’ for the rail operation. Trained staff know exactly how to load the carriages to maximise capacity and to make for optimal unloading easiness. But there is only one driver.
Drivers of the HGVs get at least one person to assist with loading Yorks; more if time is short. That’s all cost that needs to be considered.

 

[zwk500]

Of course there are ‘support staff’ for the rail operation. Trained staff know exactly how to load the carriages to maximise capacity and to make for optimal unloading easiness. But there is only one driver.
Drivers of the HGVs get at least one person to assist with loading Yorks; more if time is short. That’s all cost that needs to be considered.

Load the Yorks onto a swapbody container, have a reach stacker handy, and attach the rake to the back of a Freightliner Class 4 path. Container freight on the WCML runs up to 775m long, and RM routinely only needed 160m of Unit. How many 40ft containers would be needed to replace the carrying capacity of a 12-car 325, 16?
Sure you've got the loading costs and would need to railhead the trailers from the terminal to the sorting centre, but doesn't that happen anyway at Warrington? You save a substantial portion of the cost of having dedicated trains and train drivers and train schedules in the timetable by using a freightliner that was running anyway.

 

[3973EXL]

66067 325007

Realtime Trains | 4Z25 1700 Mossend Down Yard to Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 4Z25 1700 departure from Mossend Down Yard to Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Class15]

Realtime Trains | 4Z25 1700 Mossend Down Yard to Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 4Z25 1700 departure from Mossend Down Yard to Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Which units are on this? I thought all of them had either been scrapped or were at Willesden?

 

[Gloster]

It is just the three trailer vehicles as the motor has apparently already been scrapped.

 

[Class15]

It is just the three trailer vehicles as the motor has apparently already been scrapped.

Thanks, can now see that the unit in question is 325007.

 

[3973EXL]

Realtime Trains | 4Z36 1053 Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 20/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 4Z36 1053 departure from Alexandra Dock Jn. T.C. to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 20/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Adrian Barr]

Unit 325007 (vehicles 68312 / 68366 / 68313) arrived at Unimetals, Newport Docks today behind 66151 (running as 4Z36, as per above post).

As noted in post #439 above, the pantograph coach 68346 from 325007 had previously been sent for scrap by road from Mossend (see post #369)

The 4Z25 move of 325007 from Mossend to Newport ADJ behind 66067 on 10th December is pictured here at Warrington: https://www.flickr.com/photos/32865578@N02/54198302018/
And 325007 is seen in the yard at Newport ADJ on 16th December: https://www.flickr.com/photos/turners_pics/54208236274/

Updated 325 unit locations (obviously many of the vehicles shown at Unimetals may already have been scrapped, I've no info on scrapping dates):

325001 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325002 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325003 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 6Z36 04/11/24)
325004 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 13/11/24)
325005 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325006 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 5Q76 07/11/24) except 68345, reported as moved by road from Mossend to EMR Glasgow, see posts #319 / #320 / #369)
325007 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 20/12/24) except 68346, reported as moved by road to EMR Kingsbury, see posts #319 / #320 / #369)
325008 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 15/11/24)
325009 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 19/11/24)
325011 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325012 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 6Z36 04/11/24)
325013 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 5Q76 07/11/24) except 68352, reported as moved by road from Mossend to EMR Glasgow, see posts #319 / #320 / #369)
325014 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325015 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325016 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 13/11/24)

 

[Class15]

Unit 325007 (vehicles 68312 / 68366 / 68313) arrived at Unimetals, Newport Docks today behind 66151 (running as 4Z36, as per above post).

As noted in post #439 above, the pantograph coach 68346 from 325007 had previously been sent for scrap by road from Mossend (see post #369)

The 4Z25 move of 325007 from Mossend to Newport ADJ behind 66067 on 10th December is pictured here at Warrington: https://www.flickr.com/photos/32865578@N02/54198302018/
And 325007 is seen in the yard at Newport ADJ on 16th December: https://www.flickr.com/photos/turners_pics/54208236274/

Updated 325 unit locations (obviously many of the vehicles shown at Unimetals may already have been scrapped, I've no info on scrapping dates):

325001 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325002 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325003 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 6Z36 04/11/24)
325004 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 13/11/24)
325005 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325006 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 5Q76 07/11/24) except 68345, reported as moved by road from Mossend to EMR Glasgow, see posts #319 / #320 / #369)
325007 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 20/12/24) except 68346, reported as moved by road to EMR Kingsbury, see posts #319 / #320 / #369)
325008 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 15/11/24)
325009 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 19/11/24)
325011 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325012 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 6Z36 04/11/24)
325013 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 5Q76 07/11/24) except 68352, reported as moved by road from Mossend to EMR Glasgow, see posts #319 / #320 / #369)
325014 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325015 Willesden (inside mail terminal, see post #345)
325016 Newport Docks, Unimetals (arrived 4Z36 13/11/24)

Any update on the Willesden units? Curious that none of them have left there yet.

 

[The_Train]

Any update on the Willesden units? Curious that none of them have left there yet.

Presumably they have been left for last as they are on a Royal Mail site so there are no storage costs compared to those units that were stored in other locations?

 

[Fatboyslim]

I hear that they are the better ones, and are to be sold...?

 

[Class15]

I hear that they are the better ones, and are to be sold...?

Yes, but it depends on whether there is any interest in them. We saw this with the Renatus Class 321 units. They ended up being scrapped.

 

[D365]

Yes, but it depends on whether there is any interest in them. We saw this with the Renatus Class 321 units. They ended up being scrapped.

Phil Read has suggested that Varamis were interested in acquiring Class 325 units. Possibly all 15, had they been made available to suitors.

 

[Class15]

Phil Read has suggested that Varamis were interested in acquiring Class 325 units. Possibly all 15, had they been made available to suitors.

That’s very interesting, thanks.

 

[The_Train]

Phil Read has suggested that Varamis were interested in acquiring Class 325 units. Possibly all 15, had they been made available to suitors.

They should probably focus on making enough work for the many units they already have lying around the network

 

[Class15]

They should probably focus on making enough work for the many units they already have lying around the network

Indeed, whatever happened to the London Liverpool St service? It’s been nearly a year since the ‘launch’.