Revenue Inspectors

[Chrisgr31]

I personally would like to see more checking of tickets on board. My ticket on a Southern train has been checked 4 times this year, by the same two guards. When I have travelled on trains with OBS it hasnt been checked at all.

I can understand what LowLevel says and why he wont take action against those that refuse to pay, however at least he can advise management who can if necessary arrange other steps to ensure persistent fare evaders get caught.

 

[Starmill]

All guards should have cameras and revenue made a compulsory part of their job.

I am sure all guards are issued with phones already which have a camera. If someone is the guard, then by definition it can't be compulsory for them to carry out revenue duties. They may or may not be trained to to so.

So I really don't understand what on earth you are talking about here.

 

[6Gman]

I for one would support more people checking or at least selling tickets on the trains. I've done a number of journeys where I have unintentionally evaded fares, as my home station has no ticket barriers and neither does the one I sometimes start from. Ticket office closed early due to staff sickness and for some reason ticket machines never accept cash payment anymore so when on the train the guard locks himself in the rear cab so no tickets can be purchased.

Are there ticket issuing facilities at your destination?

 

[yorkie]

All guards should have cameras and revenue made a compulsory part of their job.

SWR inner suburban services have non-commercial Guards (ie, they do not check or sell tickets) due to the very short distances between stations and they may have to be in particular positions at certain stations to operate the doors. I do not see how you could possibly make it 'mandatory' do revenue duties on these services?

Are there ticket issuing facilities at your destination?

The OP said the ticket office was closed and the machines did not accept cash (nor would they accept RTVs, incidentally; see this thread!)

So there may be facilities of sorts, but if you are paying by a payment method that is not accepted, then that does not count as an opportunity to pay.

 

[LowLevel]

I personally would like to see more checking of tickets on board. My ticket on a Southern train has been checked 4 times this year, by the same two guards. When I have travelled on trains with OBS it hasnt been checked at all.

I can understand what LowLevel says and why he wont take action against those that refuse to pay, however at least he can advise management who can if necessary arrange other steps to ensure persistent fare evaders get caught.

I use my professional judgement. If a face becomes a problem we deal with it because it's annoying (We do talk to each other). It's no mean feat to arrange though - a lot of my routes never ever see any revenue protection staff except for guards and BTP stations are few and far between - the stations are mostly unmanned as well and the ones that are tend to be 0700-1500 affairs.

There's a lot of railway out there that is comprehensively destaffed.

 

[LiftFan]

Are there ticket issuing facilities at your destination?

Yes but it also does not accept cash and the office there closes at midday anyway when I got back at about 19:00.

 

[TwinTurbostar]

Yeah - that's the one.
They were hopeless.
When I was at Uni you were mocked if you paid for a ticket.
They may have been well trained but efficient they were not.

I ride a scooter into uni these days, but I know a few people who get the train in from stations between Wolves and Birmingham, and they never end up paying for tickets. When it was London Midland, you could usually guarantee there'd be a guard walking through on the 350s, but nowadays they don't even seem to check tickets on those. 323s are obviously impossible to check tickets on, unless you have a third member of staff on there, and doubly so along the CrossCity line when there's two of them coupled together.

I have seen revenue inspectors at the Wolverhampton end a few times, checking tickets of anyone getting off there, but that's once in a blue moon.

 

[falcon]

I don't think it is wise for (almost) any forum member to divulge their current employer.

That said, I understand TheEdge may be in a different role now, but still not wise to divulge too much information.

Well he did say he "must have imagined" most of the thing in his post. So it's safe to say in the absence of specific details he did imagine it.

Mind you he only guessed he imagined it so he is not even sure that he imagined the contents of his post.

 

[Antman]

Yes but it also does not accept cash and the office there closes at midday anyway when I got back at about 19:00.

There is a trend nowadays of installing ticket machines that don't accept cash, obviously it saves them having to be emptied but it also prevents a lot of people buying a ticket. I think there should be signage at such stations making it clear that those wishing to pay cash can do so on the train or at their destination and will not be liable to a penalty fare.

 

[Bantamzen]

ATW employ an army of people who visit stations known as the "Green Gestapo" from an outsourcing Company (not sure which one) who come over as being very heavy handed and stand accused of harassing passengers. They have been reported as even harassing people for their tickets when they may still be waiting in a queue at TVM waiting to buy one. One person even claimed on Twitter last week that he witnessed a customer being pinned up against a wall by one of these people. Twitter replies are a "cut and paste" saying they have thorough training but this obviously doesn't include training in manners and civility towards fellow human beings. One gets the impression that their power goes to their heads and just act as cowboys.

Whilst im not trying to say all RPIs are salt of the earth here but some stories just seem a little far fetched dont you think? Maybe in an effort to get off on their penalty?

Twitter feeds, and indeed social media feeds in general are not necessarily the best place to gather information in these kinds of circumstances. Many people complaining that they have been harassed could, and frankly often seem to be trying to get away with evasion, being nasty to staff RPIs, and generally trying to create enough of a smoke screen to get away with whatever they have done. As Clip says, I'm sure that occasionally there is bad egg in the RPI crowd, but most are just trying to make sure that everyone pays what they ought. Those seeking to evade fares are often the noisiest in protesting in my experience from years of commuting.

So each case needs to be looked at individually, with facts presented from both sides & considered. The phrase "Green Gestapo" has likely been dreamed up by people annoyed that they couldn't get away with what they might previously been able to, as such titles are elsewhere.

The consequences of being caught stealing from a shop seem to be much less significant than being caught fare evading. I know people who work in store security, and have indeed witnessed it myself, and the consequences of stealing seem to be told to give the item back.

Do they not participate in the 'Civil recovery' thing that i see signs up at stores? Not that ive looked into it all that much i must say - unless signs are some attempt at a deterrent

A shoplifter might not have further action taken against save recovering any stolen items, but a fare evader may well have completed their journey and effectivly got away scot free if they are not fined or prosecuted. So there is a very big difference and TOCs won't want to allow evaders how have been caught red handed think that it is easy to get away with again.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There is a trend nowadays of installing ticket machines that don't accept cash, obviously it saves them having to be emptied but it also prevents a lot of people buying a ticket. I think there should be signage at such stations making it clear that those wishing to pay cash can do so on the train or at their destination and will not be liable to a penalty fare.

Cash is expensive to deal with. Has to be collected, counted, banked. Machines likely to be attacked to get money. Easier not to accept it at all. They certainly don’t want to encourage it!

 

[Antman]

Cash is expensive to deal with. Has to be collected, counted, banked. Machines likely to be attacked to get money. Easier not to accept it at all. They certainly don’t want to encourage it!

Yes I fully understand that, just as long as they don't try penalty faring those without tickets.

 

[Emmsie]

I personally would like to see more checking of tickets on board. My ticket on a Southern train has been checked 4 times this year, by the same two guards. When I have travelled on trains with OBS it hasnt been checked at all.

I can understand what LowLevel says and why he wont take action against those that refuse to pay, however at least he can advise management who can if necessary arrange other steps to ensure persistent fare evaders get caught.

I'm surprised to hear that as the managers do keep an eye on ticket sales by the OBS. I did check tickets but if you are on your own working a train and someone doesn't want to buy a ticket there isn't much that can be done. It would have been helpful if the OBS had all the numbers to stations so atleast a quick call could be made to the next manned station to have someone there to help enforce but I'm not sure that the Rail companies are that bothered and Southern got rid of all their RPI's anyway.

 

[LiftFan]

Yes I fully understand that, just as long as they don't try penalty faring those without tickets.

I think cash still needs a large place in getting tickets- at stations with no ticket office or one that closes early, teenagers and children still mainly have cash, not many have debit cards (or enough money in their banks).

 

[sbt]

I think cash still needs a large place in getting tickets- at stations with no ticket office or one that closes early, teenagers and children still mainly have cash, not many have debit cards (or enough money in their banks).

Indeed. It is very noticeable at the station I commute from that adults use cards and school and sixth form pupils use cash.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Ref posts on the "green gestapo" it's not just pax that use that name for them! They can also be badly trained, my TOC staff pass was declined as invalid as I'd got off a unit carrying our old brand. However, most of them are firm, but fair and their actions measured to the situation they're in. Several are ex-in house revenue staff. Never once did I witness them try to stop anyone boarding at a station they were doing a revenue block at, who wanted to pay cash, with a card only TVM. They did however arrange for a block to be put on at the next station down to check if tickets had been bought on board, and the Guard advised of the (largeish) number of people wanting to pay cash for tickets, to avoid anyone using "cash" to get around them!

 

[Antman]

I think cash still needs a large place in getting tickets- at stations with no ticket office or one that closes early, teenagers and children still mainly have cash, not many have debit cards (or enough money in their banks).

I very much agree, I think it's only at unstaffed stations that TVM's are card only? As long as TOC accept it will mean people travelling without a ticket?

 

[BestWestern]

The consequences of being caught stealing from a shop seem to be much less significant than being caught fare evading. I know people who work in store security, and have indeed witnessed it myself, and the consequences of stealing seem to be told to give the item back.

This is simply because the police in our current, 'managed decline' society don't have the resources to come out and deal with petty crime and antisocial behaviour (hence our society rapidly turning into a festering rathole that I suspect a great many of us would really prefer not to live in, which hopefully before too much longer will force those in power to start investing in the basic underpinning requirements of a civilised country, such as a police force that doesn't openly refuse to deal with crime. Alas, that's for another thread!). The act of theft remains an offence, and if you walked into a police station and confessed to pinching something they would presumably apply the law accordingly, however if a police response is required to initially deal with and investigate the matter you can forget it, they don't have the time or interest.

The railway however does have the resources, by virtue of the RPI who just caught you being there in the first place! Those decrying the loss of the BR 'man in a box' checking tickets on exits from platforms should consider the above. In the absence of a physical gateline (themselves far from foolproof) it simply wouldn't work nowadays, the dodgers would just walk on past and the man would be under the strictest of instructions to remain in his box and let them get on with it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The other thing, of course, is that if you are caught stealing something, you can return it and the shop has not lost out. Why then would they spend money prosecuting someone if they have suffered no loss? They bar the individual from coming in again, and that is it. When a shoplifter is apprehended the usual first question is to ask if they have the money to pay for it, if they have, better still, they pay for it, shop gets the sale and still bars them.
If someone has made a train journey, the TOC can't claim that back, so have suffered a loss. It is also harder to bar someone from a train, as ensuring every guard knows who is not allowed on is virtually impossible, whereas a store security guard can easily know, and facial recognition cameras can also detect.

 

[matt_world2004]

Ive been checked on the tube twice in the last 12 months once on barrier and once on train. I have been checked by GwR twice and buses 12 times

 

[noddingdonkey]

Yes I fully understand that, just as long as they don't try penalty faring those without tickets.

I believe the current PF trial Northern are doing the TVMs at stations can issue effectively a zero fare Permit to Travel, which is required in order to pay with cash on board.

 

[peri]

Ive been checked on the tube twice in the last 12 months once on barrier and once on train. I have been checked by GwR twice and buses 12 times

How do they check a contact less debit card on the tube or trams?

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'm surprised to hear that as the managers do keep an eye on ticket sales by the OBS. I did check tickets but if you are on your own working a train and someone doesn't want to buy a ticket there isn't much that can be done. It would have been helpful if the OBS had all the numbers to stations so atleast a quick call could be made to the next manned station to have someone there to help enforce but I'm not sure that the Rail companies are that bothered and Southern got rid of all their RPI's anyway.

Another train with an OBS yesterday and whilst he walked through the train he didn't check tickets. Could have been going to check 1st class though I guess.

On the few occasions I do see ticket checks I always see at lease 1 or 2 people per carriage buying a ticket, so the TOC its got to be a worthwhile exercise.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Depnds on the TOC, on Southeastern tickets are checked every journey however on Southern its extremely rare. Southern should perhaps look at employing even tempoary revenue inspectors to give a bit of staff visibility. Seems to me a lot of the on board staff really can't be bothered.

 

[matt_world2004]

How do they check a contact less debit card on the tube or trams?

I was using an oyster card at the time . except on gwr . on gwr they looked at it snd moved on.

 

[noddingdonkey]

How do they check a contact less debit card on the tube or trams?

On the DLR they have a device which reads the card and presumably confirms that it has been touched in. Not sure how though.

 

[tsr]

How do they check a contact less debit card on the tube or trams?

A Revenue Inspection Device (RID) is used, which is capable of checking Oyster, ITSO smartcards, Apple Pay and contactless cards. The only check approved for contactless cards is to see if they are on the Not Authorised For Travel list, which is periodically downloaded onto the RID via 3G; if the card isn't on the list, it is approved by the device when it scans the card, and that's all that the member of staff knows.

More detail is provided when using the RID to read smartcards and Oysters, although the PAYG balance cannot be shown for Oyster cards.

It must be said that only the more "clued up" TOCs issue RIDs to their staff; there are some locations where operators haven't got round to training their staff and issuing them to all (or any) depots.

Depnds on the TOC, on Southeastern tickets are checked every journey however on Southern its extremely rare. Southern should perhaps look at employing even tempoary revenue inspectors to give a bit of staff visibility. Seems to me a lot of the on board staff really can't be bothered.

Southeastern definitely don't check tickets on every journey, but their guards are generally pretty good on the mainline routes.

In terms of the DOO London services, they have roving REOs (Rail Enforcement Officers), who are probably above and beyond anything else provided by TOCs on the national network in terms of enforcement coverage and professionalism, and you do tend to find them supporting a fair number of revenue "blocks" on targeted trains and stations in the London area. But not everywhere!

As for GTR, expect a lot more action against ticketless travel soon.

On the DLR they have a device which reads the card and presumably confirms that it has been touched in. Not sure how though.

As above, that's a RID. It doesn't confirm if a card has been touched in; revenue staff are not permitted to track the usage of contactless cards, only see whether it is authorised for travel or not.

 

[Bookd]

As I understand on TFL buses, and presumably also on rail, the RPI's reader will send the card details to the central control. If control sees that it had been touched in for that journey that is fine - if not the card will be charged for the maximum fare for the journey, and it could presumably be set to charge a penalty fare where appropriate.

 

[Bromley boy]

In terms of the DOO London services, they have roving REOs (Rail Enforcement Officers), who are probably above and beyond anything else provided by TOCs on the national network in terms of enforcement coverage and professionalism, and you do tend to find them supporting a fair number of revenue "blocks" on targeted trains and stations in the London area. But not everywhere!

REOs are few and far between, unfortunately, and often clustered on manned stations and areas which are already heavily trafficked, rather than known trouble spots where their presence might be more useful...

 

[swt_passenger]

Depnds on the TOC, on Southeastern tickets are checked every journey however on Southern its extremely rare. Southern should perhaps look at employing even tempoary revenue inspectors to give a bit of staff visibility. Seems to me a lot of the on board staff really can't be bothered.

I don’t think it’s that easy to generalise. I use Southern often on the Fareham <> Southampton trains and haven’t seen any significant change in ticket checks since OBS started...