Revenue Inspectors

[Schweir]

On approximately what % of trains are revenue inspectors on? Does this vary by TOC? Only mentioning this as I only remember seeing inspectors once (near Trowbridge) despite travelling thousands of kilometers by train per year.

Do we need more? On the one occasion I did see revenue inspectors (Jan this year), over 10 people in the carriage I was in got fined. I am sure the extra staff costs will be made back through the extra revenue gained from ticket sales.

 

[yorkie]

On approximately what % of trains are revenue inspectors on?

By that, you mean a member of staff whose sole duty is to sell fares and provide customer service and not perform a safety critical role?

Does this vary by TOC?

Not just by TOC but within the TOC depending on what service it is.

For example, on Scotrail almost all the electric services centred around Glasgow have ticket examiners, while their diesel trains with Guards generally won't.

Do we need more? On the one occasion I did see revenue inspectors (Jan this year), over 10 people in the carriage I was in got fined. I am sure the extra staff costs will be made back through the extra revenue gained from ticket sales.

I think you mean issued with Penalty Fares? I would support more ticket examiners using the Scotrail model but I am not a fan of penalty fares and would not support ticket examiners who are authorised PF collectors.

 

[E_Reeves]

Do GWR have ticket inspectors who don't do guard duties on board their HST services?

 

[falcon]

Many people travel over long distances hundreds of miles without ever getting their ticket checked.

It's a shambles in short.

The level of revenue protection is mostly down to the individual member of staff mostly guards who are keen or not so keen.

There is no consistency due to so many TOC all having a different approach to revenue protection unlike BR.

No one does two weeks in a class room learning tickets and then having to pass a test any more.

All ticket checking staff were issued with the Ticket Examiners handbook. Those are not issued consistently if at all now.

Any training given differs from TOC to TOC. As does the approach some want customer care others get the money in or take them to court.

Some TOC want ticket examining staff others don't. None of the open access operators have RPIs

No one goes out and checks to see if guards or RPIs are doing their job properly ie checking toilets working side by side through the train, checking coach jumping at stations.

All or most guards are paid commission on revenue collected very few if any ticket examiners/ RPI's are paid commission.

Open access operators do not apply bye law 18 and allow boarding without tickets at all times.

Complete and utter inconsistency across the entire rail network.

Hence some of the posts on this forum.

I think more ticket checking staff are needed but only if consistency and proper training can be brought in across the entire network.

 

[Stampy]

Travelled from PBO to Southampton on Friday

1347 from Peterborough to London KX - No ticket check
1605 from Waterloo to Southampton - Ticket checked after Woking

2200 from Southampton to Waterloo - No ticket check
0001 from London KX to Peterborough - No ticket check and all barriers and gates open at KX

 

[Starmill]

Do GWR have ticket inspectors who don't do guard duties on board their HST services?

They employ rather a lot of ticket examiners, who travel on all kinds of different services including the Severn Beach line and Heart of Wessex line for example. They also employ some RPIs.

 

[farleigh]

Revenue protection was laughable under BR.

However, I think the pendulum has swung too far and I hate to see people threatened with a criminal record after one mistake (or even trying it on). I do however feel strongly that people who evade fares more than once deserve what they (should) get.

So - more revenue protection is fine by me but there should be a one strike rule whereby you are made to pay the full fare first time, and then prosecuted after that.

Hope that makes sense

 

[TheEdge]

Many people travel over long distances hundreds of miles without ever getting their ticket checked.

I travel a lot over all sorts of distances. I don't think I've done many journeys where I've never been checked, or had to pass closed barriers.

No one does two weeks in a class room learning tickets and then having to pass a test any more.

Oh, thats odd, I could swear I did weeks of revenue training, ticket selling training followed by exams, with it covered on bi-annual exams. But I guess I imagined all that...

No one goes out and checks to see if guards or RPIs are doing their job properly ie checking toilets working side by side through the train, checking coach jumping at stations.

Again, I guess I imagined the unannounced monitoring, data downloads and secret shoppers used by mine and other TOCs...

 

[sheff1]

Revenue protection was laughable under BR.

Is that the same BR who had ticket inspectors in booths at the entrance(s) to platforms at all major stations and many lesser ones; the same BR where ticket checks of alighting passengers were usually made at staffed stations without a ticket collectors booth; the same BR where well trained and efficient teams of Travelling Ticket Inspectors travelled the core network performing on-train checks ?

 

[farleigh]

Is that the same BR who had ticket inspectors in booths at the entrance(s) to platforms at all major stations and many lesser ones; the same BR where ticket checks of alighting passengers were usually made at staffed stations without a ticket collectors booth; the same BR where well trained and efficient teams of Travelling Ticket Inspectors travelled the core network performing on-train checks ?

Yeah - that's the one.
They were hopeless.
When I was at Uni you were mocked if you paid for a ticket.
They may have been well trained but efficient they were not.

 

[sheff1]

Your experience is obviously different to mine.

 

[farleigh]

Your experience is obviously different to mine.

Probably - I went to Uni.

Just jesting

 

[47802]

Revenue protection was laughable under BR.

However, I think the pendulum has swung too far and I hate to see people threatened with a criminal record after one mistake (or even trying it on). I do however feel strongly that people who evade fares more than once deserve what they (should) get.

So - more revenue protection is fine by me but there should be a one strike rule whereby you are made to pay the full fare first time, and then prosecuted after that.

Hope that makes sense

Yes think its getting a bit OTT with some TOC's Northern in particular, I also think that you should be able to buy your ticket on the train at least on longer distance routes.

 

[LowLevel]

As a guard I'll admit that hands on heart I'm not that fussed about revenue protection.

That doesn't mean to say I don't bother going down the train checking tickets because I do, religiously. But being in the middle of nowhere I have little backup if some scroat tells me to get stuffed. Despite being quite able, the laws of the land and my employer's policy mean dragging any such belligerent out and dumping them isn't a course of action and ringing Be There Presently (British Transport Police) is unlikely to solicit a response within the week without costing many times the fare in delay minutes. Consequently I save my efforts for anti social or criminal behaviour cases where I'm not afraid to stand up to them and where delay minutes will be tolerated.

Except where TOCs encourage problems to arise (single operator tickets on short commuter journeys for example) I can advise that the vast majority of people I do encounter do have an appropriate ticket. Of the rest most will pay with a greater or lesser degree of coercion and a tiny proportion require further action or police attention.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Revenue protection was laughable under BR.

However, I think the pendulum has swung too far and I hate to see people threatened with a criminal record after one mistake (or even trying it on). I do however feel strongly that people who evade fares more than once deserve what they (should) get.

So - more revenue protection is fine by me but there should be a one strike rule whereby you are made to pay the full fare first time, and then prosecuted after that.

Hope that makes sense

"Mistake" ie travelling on the wrong advanced/Toc ticket, wrong time etc, these can be dealt with fairly.

However, would you get "one strike" for walking out of NEXT with a few pairs of jeans hidden in your bag of the same value of a rail ticket you haven't paid for? Fare evasion is theft pure and simple, the rest of the population have to fund this theft, and a firmer line should be taken, people made examples of and their penalties punnishments published widely at stations. All guards should have cameras and revenue made a compulsory part of their job.

 

[farleigh]

Excellent post Low Level - you sound like an excellent guard sir.

 

[farleigh]

"Mistake" ie travelling on the wrong advanced/Toc ticket, wrong time etc, these can be dealt with fairly.

However, would you get "one strike" for walking out of NEXT with a few pairs of jeans hidden in your bag of the same value of a rail ticket you haven't paid for? Fare evasion is theft pure and simple, the rest of the population have to fund this theft, and a firmer line should be taken, people made examples of and their penalties punnishments published widely at stations. All guards should have cameras and revenue made a compulsory part of their job.

In the NEXT example, most likely you would (if caught by security) have to give the jeans back and your description might be added to a database. The police are unlikely to attend. I have helped staff catch multiple shoplifters and in all cases the staff have said there is no point calling the police as they won't attend for hours if at all.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It always makes me chuckle when people remember BR as being so good. They were hopeless! Yes, they had men in booths checking tickets, but they were largely uninterested & you could show them anything and they’d let you through. That isn’t a model of efficiency!

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Interestingly, I had cause to travel to Slade Green station for work last week, and after exiting the station was (un)surprised at the lack of people who appeared to be paying to travel, particularly when I touched out and (because I was exiting near a woman and her child) heard her evident partner who was a few metres in front turn around and say something to the effect, "You didn't pay did you!"
The less said about the people I observed around the station the better, including 3 adults separately who all checked to see if a can of cider left on a wall had anything in it
I was left wondering of I was the mug for paying for a while.
On my return I travelled from Erith and was heartened that the entire station was being checked on both platforms. A number of people tried the earphones in/on the phone/walking slowly towards the RPI - none were successful. It did make me heartened that I wasn't being the mug by paying, but was concerned that the time and date that it happened probably meant that they were targeting school/college students as easy wins rather than the perennial avoiders I had witnessed at Slade Green.

 

[PHILIPE]

ATW employ an army of people who visit stations known as the "Green Gestapo" from an outsourcing Company (not sure which one) who come over as being very heavy handed and stand accused of harassing passengers. They have been reported as even harassing people for their tickets when they may still be waiting in a queue at TVM waiting to buy one. One person even claimed on Twitter last week that he witnessed a customer being pinned up against a wall by one of these people. Twitter replies are a "cut and paste" saying they have thorough training but this obviously doesn't include training in manners and civility towards fellow human beings. One gets the impression that their power goes to their heads and just act as cowboys.

 

[RPI]

Is that the same BR who had ticket inspectors in booths at the entrance(s) to platforms at all major stations and many lesser ones; the same BR where ticket checks of alighting passengers were usually made at staffed stations without a ticket collectors booth; the same BR where well trained and efficient teams of Travelling Ticket Inspectors travelled the core network performing on-train checks ?

Yes that' the one, the same BR that then introduced the "open stations policy" and did away with all of the above in the 80's

 

[Carlisle]

Many people travel over long distances hundreds of miles without ever getting their ticket checked.
.

It won’t be many, yes there’ll be a few long distance services where the guard can’t get through for one reason or another or someone opts to spend a large part of their journey in the toilet , but that’s more the exception certainly on former inter city routes

 

[AY1975]

Yes that' the one, the same BR that then introduced the "open stations policy" and did away with all of the above in the 80's

Yes, and they then replaced ticket barrier checks at stations with on-train checks, although some parts of the country were quicker to change to open stations than others - I think those areas that clung on to the old system for longer tended to be the major conurbations where there were a lot of local services with frequent stops where full on-train checks would be more difficult and/or where non-gangwayed DMUs and EMUs were then still in service. Also, I believe that there was some opposition to open stations from the rail unions, presumably for fear of job losses and increased opportunities for ticketless travel.

From what I remember, in BR days most guards on InterCity trains, and on many other trains in open station areas, were pretty consistent with their on-train checks, unlike today when they often do not show up at all or only once during a train's entire journey. On InterCity trains in BR days, and even on the East Coast route under GNER, they would normally do a full ticket check after a crew change.

 

[falcon]

I travel a lot over all sorts of distances. I don't think I've done many journeys where I've never been checked, or had to pass closed barriers.



Oh, thats odd, I could swear I did weeks of revenue training, ticket selling training followed by exams, with it covered on bi-annual exams. But I guess I imagined all that...



Again, I guess I imagined the unannounced monitoring, data downloads and secret shoppers used by mine and other TOCs...

Which TOC do you work for?

 

[Mojo]

However, would you get "one strike" for walking out of NEXT with a few pairs of jeans hidden in your bag of the same value of a rail ticket you haven't paid for? Fare evasion is theft pure and simple, the rest of the population have to fund this theft, and a firmer line should be taken, people made examples of and their penalties punnishments published widely at stations. All guards should have cameras and revenue made a compulsory part of their job.

The consequences of being caught stealing from a shop seem to be much less significant than being caught fare evading. I know people who work in store security, and have indeed witnessed it myself, and the consequences of stealing seem to be told to give the item back.

 

[Clip]

On my return I travelled from Erith and was heartened that the entire station was being checked on both platforms. A number of people tried the earphones in/on the phone/walking slowly towards the RPI - none were successful. It did make me heartened that I wasn't being the mug by paying, but was concerned that the time and date that it happened probably meant that they were targeting school/college students as easy wins rather than the perennial avoiders I had witnessed at Slade Green.

The RPIs will target different stations at different times of the day so that they dont create a pattern of behaviour that fare evaders get used too. It would be nice for every station to have RPIs all day long but its just not feasible.

ATW employ an army of people who visit stations known as the "Green Gestapo" from an outsourcing Company (not sure which one) who come over as being very heavy handed and stand accused of harassing passengers. They have been reported as even harassing people for their tickets when they may still be waiting in a queue at TVM waiting to buy one. One person even claimed on Twitter last week that he witnessed a customer being pinned up against a wall by one of these people. Twitter replies are a "cut and paste" saying they have thorough training but this obviously doesn't include training in manners and civility towards fellow human beings. One gets the impression that their power goes to their heads and just act as cowboys.

Whilst im not trying to say all RPIs are salt of the earth here but some stories just seem a little far fetched dont you think? Maybe in an effort to get off on their penalty?

The consequences of being caught stealing from a shop seem to be much less significant than being caught fare evading. I know people who work in store security, and have indeed witnessed it myself, and the consequences of stealing seem to be told to give the item back.

Do they not participate in the 'Civil recovery' thing that i see signs up at stores? Not that ive looked into it all that much i must say - unless signs are some attempt at a deterrent

 

[Antman]

I

As a guard I'll admit that hands on heart I'm not that fussed about revenue protection.

That doesn't mean to say I don't bother going down the train checking tickets because I do, religiously. But being in the middle of nowhere I have little backup if some scroat tells me to get stuffed. Despite being quite able, the laws of the land and my employer's policy mean dragging any such belligerent out and dumping them isn't a course of action and ringing Be There Presently (British Transport Police) is unlikely to solicit a response within the week without costing many times the fare in delay minutes. Consequently I save my efforts for anti social or criminal behaviour cases where I'm not afraid to stand up to them and where delay minutes will be tolerated.

Except where TOCs encourage problems to arise (single operator tickets on short commuter journeys for example) I can advise that the vast majority of people I do encounter do have an appropriate ticket. Of the rest most will pay with a greater or lesser degree of coercion and a tiny proportion require further action or police attention.

I know a guard on Southeastern who said much the same thing, just not worth getting into a confrontation with those intent on not paying and most ticket checks are just a matter of going through the motions.

 

[Antman]

The consequences of being caught stealing from a shop seem to be much less significant than being caught fare evading. I know people who work in store security, and have indeed witnessed it myself, and the consequences of stealing seem to be told to give the item back.

I recently witnessed an incident at my local supermarket where some rogue got caught nicking a bottle of vodka, he was just told not to come in the store again.

 

[LiftFan]

I for one would support more people checking or at least selling tickets on the trains. I've done a number of journeys where I have unintentionally evaded fares, as my home station has no ticket barriers and neither does the one I sometimes start from. Ticket office closed early due to staff sickness and for some reason ticket machines never accept cash payment anymore so when on the train the guard locks himself in the rear cab so no tickets can be purchased.

 

[yorkie]

Which TOC do you work for?

I don't think it is wise for (almost) any forum member to divulge their current employer.

That said, I understand TheEdge may be in a different role now, but still not wise to divulge too much information.