Replacing the Parry People Movers

[Energy]

Just convert a pair of Enviro200 buses to rail standards (and add a cab at the other end)

Funny you say that...

 

[pdeaves]

The issue with any battery system is if enough charge can be added at each turn around so one vehicle can cover a full day. The alternative is a third rail along part of the route which inevitably will add cost. The design and approvals potentially could cost as much as the actual implementation

Revolution's design has diesel as well, and for the limited time it will need charge (given low energy, short distance, regenerative braking, etc.), that could well be enough not to need fast charge, third rail, etc.

 

[Trainbike46]

Revolution's design has diesel as well, and for the limited time it will need charge (given low energy, short distance, regenerative braking, etc.), that could well be enough not to need fast charge, third rail, etc.

If you could make it work without a diesel engine, you probably would though

 

[Basil Jet]

I can't see much difference between the line and the Luton DART, so if cable-hauled was the correct solution in Luton, I don't see why it wouldn't be here too.

 

[david1212]

......
Here's a thought - could an off the shelf EV fast charger be used, with staff just plugging it in?

Could you make the EV fast charger energise the 3rd rail. What voltage is the input to an EV with a fast charger?
What we don't want is for the vehicle to be stuck at the bottom with a flat battery!

EV technology could well work provided to maximise the charge time automatic connection on arrival and interlocked disconnection before departure. If the vehicles have higher passenger capacity and service is permanently cut to 4tph so 2 minutes turnaround becomes 7 minutes at one end or even becomes 3 + 6 minutes with 5 minutes on charge that gives 20 minutes out of 60 for charging which ought to be adequate with a reserve.
The battery capacity ought to be at least 4 round trips so the odd extra can be run plus allow for ageing, temperature extremes etc. Similarly the charging rate ought to based around 15 minutes for 4 tph so if 5 or even 6 trips one hour the charging can catch up over the next couple of hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Revolution's design has diesel as well, and for the limited time it will need charge (given low energy, short distance, regenerative braking, etc.), that could well be enough not to need fast charge, third rail, etc.

If you could make it work without a diesel engine, you probably would though

A diesel, or any other fossil fuel, engine adds initial and ongoing costs so IMO better to have a higher battery capacity and charging rate.

 

[Bob Price]

At the moment off the shelf is a two car 230 possibly using one of the spares from the Bedford to Bletchley line.

Alternatively a new 230 with fast charging. Vivarail are demonstrating the concept at Bletchley prior to using one on the Greenford branch. If successful then a quick solution is available.

Second off the shelf is the VLR which is also built and ready to go. Can't see anything else in that space as the cost would be too high.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is only one spare 230 at BLY and they are not reliable enough not to need it.

 

[Bob Price]

There is only one spare 230 at BLY and they are not reliable enough not to need it.

Ah for some reason I thought only two were in operation on any one day. Scratch that one then.

 

[Egg Centric]

Am I missing something? Sadly it's becoming increasingly obvious that the country and the railway are bankrupt and we need to make ruthless cost savings.

In that enviornment, why do we need the line at all? It's less than a mile up/down a not very steep hill. Disabled/elderly can take a bus/cab.

Replace with a cycle path or (even better) mothball.

 

[The Planner]

Am I missing something? Sadly it's becoming increasingly obvious that the country and the railway are bankrupt and we need to make ruthless cost savings.

In that enviornment, why do we need the line at all? It's less than a mile up/down a not very steep hill. Disabled/elderly can take a bus/cab.

Replace with a cycle path or (even better) mothball.

It isnt going to save anything significant if closed. No signalling, track category as low as it can be. Just elastic bands for the PPM.

 

[MattRat]

There is only one spare 230 at BLY and they are not reliable enough not to need it.

Out of curiosity, would it still be cheaper to maintain more 230s, given they already have the know how and equipment in place to do so, or would the VLR edge it out if more reliable, despite having to train new maintenance staff for it and bring in new equipment.

 

[MotCO]

I like your thinking! Anyone good with Photoshop care to make one up?

Reminds me a bit of this image I first saw online years ago!
Image shows a single Northern Class 170 vehicle photoshopped to have a cab at each end and shortened to have only one set of doors.
View attachment 123339

Isn't this the ideal vehicle? (Originally posted on a Scottish Citilink thread by @computerSaysNo

 

[Vanmanyo]

The Luton Airport shuttle bus (among others) worked perfectly fine as an extension of the train system for a long time. No need for anything complicated, just declare it a permanent RRB and sell tickets to/from Town.

Buses aren't all that reliable, especially with traffic at peak. Currently, people can (mostly) rely on the 139s to cover the distance in 3 minutes, not 4, 5 10 minutes due to traffic.

 

[HSTEd]

In that enviornment, why do we need the line at all?

It's probably not particularly heavily subsidised compared to many lines that cost far more to operate.

People actually use this line in substantial numbers, and there are many others you can't really say that for.

Stourbridge Junction had more pre-coronavirus entries and exists than every station on the Far North Line combined (excepting Inverness).

 

[Sprinter107]

Am I missing something? Sadly it's becoming increasingly obvious that the country and the railway are bankrupt and we need to make ruthless cost savings.

In that enviornment, why do we need the line at all? It's less than a mile up/down a not very steep hill. Disabled/elderly can take a bus/cab.

Replace with a cycle path or (even better) mothball.

Yes we do need it. Its a very busy route and well used. Why should passengers have the inconvenience of walking or having to call a cab, when there's a perfectly useful well used shuttle.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ah for some reason I thought only two were in operation on any one day. Scratch that one then.

Yes, two are in service at once... with the third either on maintenance or doing crew training runs.

I guess you could always bring 230 002 back from the USA - but what would your back up for the line be for when that's on maintenance?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah for some reason I thought only two were in operation on any one day. Scratch that one then.

There are three of which two are in operation. The spare is needed as they aren't reliable enough.

 

[HSTEd]

Is the branch DOO? I assume it is from pictures but hard to be sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the branch DOO? I assume it is from pictures but hard to be sure.

No, stupidly. There are two staff who swap roles at each end. Last time I used it it was basically operated DOO despite the two of them being there, though, the "guard" was just giving a quick thumbs up to the "driver" who appeared to close the door and go without really looking. The 5mph limit at Town platform was also not strictly obeyed, the sign was passed at about 8mph on the speedo (a bit de minimis but the railway would normally be stricter). Though this sloppiness wasn't visible the previous time I used it, with the "guard" then using the local door controls to do things properly.

The staff are I believe fairly cheap though, it is subcontracted and more of a tram operation than a railway one.

 

[Bevan Price]

They could hire a 14xx 0-4-2T plus Autocoach from a heritage railway.......
(runs for cover).........

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could hire a 14xx 0-4-2T plus Autocoach from a heritage railway.......
(runs for cover).........

I can't help but be reminded of Metrolink using an East Lancs Railway steam locomotive on an engineering train...

 

[Egg Centric]

It isnt going to save anything significant if closed. No signalling, track category as low as it can be. Just elastic bands for the PPM.

It's probably not particularly heavily subsidised compared to many lines that cost far more to operate.

People actually use this line in substantial numbers, and there are many others you can't really say that for.

Stourbridge Junction had more pre-coronavirus entries and exists than every station on the Far North Line combined (excepting Inverness).

Yes we do need it. Its a very busy route and well used. Why should passengers have the inconvenience of walking or having to call a cab, when there's a perfectly useful well used shuttle.

But does it run at a profit?

If not, is mothballing cheaper?

If so then I don't see the point in this environment where we have to save piles of cash. It may not be much cash in the grand scheme of things but a lot of "not very much" could be "a bit much".

I appreciate closing the far north line etc may save a lot more but there are social and political reasons that make that (rightly) impractical. I don't think anyone is that bothered about what is basically a bit of trivia rather than a vitally important transport link.

And I speak as someone who - like almost any self-respecting rail enthusiast would - has been out of their way to give it (and the 139s) a go. I don't want it to shut but if the 139s are needing replacing and we don't want to be spending money, this is an obvious thing to just shut.

An alternative would be to sell it to the local council for £1 and they can have a go at making a funicular (on that gradient?) or whatever if they want.

 

[The Planner]

How much of the railway runs at a profit? without opening that can of worms, it isn't much of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there is a reasonable chance its economics are actually fairly good when you consider which journeys from Junction might go to car or bus instead if it wasn't there. Almost nobody pays a fare specifically to use it, because it serves no purpose on its own unless you happen to live right by Junction. It's all through passengers, and the fares are mostly the same as Junction.

 

[Egg Centric]

They could hire a 14xx 0-4-2T plus Autocoach from a heritage railway.......
(runs for cover).........

I know this was taking the pee-pee, but modify it mildly and that sort of innovative thinking could actually keep it open - get a different heritage railway to run a service on it every month for a fee and ask for donations

How much of the railway runs at a profit? without opening that can of worms, it isn't much of it.

I know. This is basically taking the "opportunity" (and it makes me sad to type this) of "needs new stuff" to close a bit of the railway.

We need to look for more of these opportunities now.

 

[HSTEd]

But does it run at a profit?

Even with the £1.40 end to end fare, the farebox is going to be approaching a million pounds a year. Considering the minimal staffing requirement its likely pretty close to breakeven.

If not, is mothballing cheaper?

What would be the point of mothballing?
If it closes it will never reopen, it would be better to admit this to the public.

And mothballing is highly unlikely to save anything much other than the operating staff salaries, I can't imagine the maintenance spend is significant.

If so then I don't see the point in this environment where we have to save piles of cash. It may not be much cash in the grand scheme of things but a lot of "not very much" could be "a bit much".

I appreciate closing the far north line etc may save a lot more but there are social and political reasons that make that (rightly) impractical. I don't think anyone is that bothered about what is basically a bit of trivia rather than a vitally important transport link.

The Stourbridge Town branch has the advantage that people actually use it, they don't just scream that it must be maintained and then then drive or take the bus instead.

One thing you could do, since it takes two staff members anyway, would be to put in a flatpack ski-lift style MDG gondola with one staff member at each end.
But that would require a fight over air rights given the annoyingly curvy alignment.

 

[Egg Centric]

Even with the £1.40 end to end fare, the farebox is going to be approaching a million pounds a year. Considering the minimal staffing requirement its likely pretty close to breakeven.

How much to replace the 139s though? That's what this thread is about.

What would be the point of mothballing?
If it closes it will never reopen, it would be better to admit this to the public.

And mothballing is highly unlikely to save anything much other than the operating staff salaries, I can't imagine the maintenance spend is significant.

Full disclosure: I don't know what mothballing actually involves. I was talking essentially about abandonment which costs **** all. If that can't be done then even worse choices to be made...

The point of abandoning is so that it could be reopened in more favourable economic circumstances. If you think there's no chance it would ever be reopened then that rather suggests you agree with me it's a bit of a historical aberration that while nice doesn't really "deserve" to exist.

The Far North Line is not a "vitally important transport link", that role was usurped by the X99 bus decades ago.

The Stourbridge Town branch has the advantage that people actually use it, they don't just scream that it must be maintained and then then drive or take the bus instead.

To be clear I wasn't calling the Far North Line a vitally important transport link. I was saying it's politically impossible to close it and anyway the Scottish Government's business (or if it's not, we should bloody well make it so). But the Stourbridge branch isn't vitally important either. Unless I'm missing something about Stourbridge (quite possible) there's really nothing special about it which justifies a rail link from a main station about 10-15 minutes walk from centre over the countless other medium sized towns with one.

One thing you could do, since it takes two staff members anyway, would be to put in a flatpack ski-lift style MDG gondola with one staff member at each end.
But that would require a fight over air rights given the annoyingly curvy alignment.

Can't tell if you're joking or not but if it is revenue-neutral/positive fine. Emirates Air Lift suggests otherwise...

 

[HSTEd]

How much to replace the 139s though? That's what this thread is about.

At a million pound a year revenue the amortised cost of replacement of the vehicless will be basically nothing in comparison.
At worst the capital cost of new vehicles is going to be ~£3-4m if they go for a couple of full size railcars

The point of abandoning is so that it could be reopened in more favourable economic circumstances. If you think there's no chance it would ever be reopened then that rather suggests you agree with me it's a bit of a historical aberration that while nice doesn't really "deserve" to exist.

No, I just know its not the kind of thing that appeals to the people who hand out reopening money.
They want to create more financial basket case lines connecting some random small town to the "network" with a service of marginal usefulness.

Reopening a service within a town with a railway station does not appeal to them.

Can't tell if you're joking or not but if it is revenue-neutral/positive fine. Emirates Air Lift suggests otherwise...

Emirates Air Line was an abomination designed to generate headlines for Boris rather than function as a public transport system. Complete with architect led 'statement' stations.

The fact that such systems are appearing in other cities indicates they aren't all disasters, indeed a rather heavywieght system opened in Toulouse recently.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

They could hire a 14xx 0-4-2T plus Autocoach from a heritage railway.......
(runs for cover).........

What about the inspection saloon Caroline and a class 37?. If this thread was running in 2020 someone would have suggested a driving car from a 442 with class 67 on the back.

 

[Egg Centric]

Reopening a service within a town with a railway station does not appeal to them.

Is that not, though, because as I said it's basically a lucky accident one could never prioritise? A less than a mile walk on the basically flat is not a big deal for most people (believe me, I'm incredibly unfit but it wouldn't bother me) - for that small number for who it is there are alternative mechanisms available.

The fact that such systems are appearing in other cities indicates they aren't all disasters, indeed a rather heavywieght system opened in Toulouse recently.

I'm absolutely fine with selling it to Stourbridge for £1 to generate no more costs if they think they could run such a system. AFAIK they have made no such proposal.

Anyway I don't want to derail this thread any further, so we can agree to disagree (or spin off another if you like, but we'll probably go around and around in circles as neither of us are right or wrong per se, I think we agree on the facts just not the interpretation)