Replacing the Parry People Movers

[Bletchleyite]

Equivalent to an airport people mover, a double-ended guided bus with autonomous tech onboard allowing a conductor to press the go button and then do customer service and revenue protection in motion would allow reversal in the existing platform locations.

It could, but you've got to build the guideway.

A VLR vehicle on rails could do the same.

Which is likely to win here, particularly given the research funding that may pay for some of the cost, and the brand new railway that is already there.

 

[zwk500]

Might be extended a little where the ramp is at the moment and perhaps a bit further. Going south, the adjacent retaining wall on the east side of the formation gets ever closer, with a road on top rising to the first overbridge. You might get 40m standage at a pinch. Easily sufficient for a 2-car D-train at (~34m) which could run on battery power, with layover charging at one end. Alternatively, the operator might talk to the VLR people at Dudley to try one of their new light vehicles on the route.

I think the curve would be too tight for heavy rail. Eventually, if a Metro tram extension or VLR line ever goes south of Dudley/Brierley Hill, then the vehicles could access Stourbridge Town via such a curve after approaching Stourbridge Junction station on one track if the existing Dudley line, with the other retained for freight. Potential light rail platforms near Junction would be a long way from the existing heavy rail platforms however, which suggests relocating the mainline station a little further north, adjacent to the carriage sidings for easier interchange:

While this design is all very good, lets be honest nobody is going to be spending that sort of money for a long time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Luton Airport shuttle bus (among others) worked perfectly fine as an extension of the train system for a long time. No need for anything complicated, just declare it a permanent RRB and sell tickets to/from Town.

It's about £6.50 off peak return from Birmingham to Stourbridge, same to Town as Junction. Upping that to £10.50 to allow for two two quid bus fares would mean people would switch to the car.

You can nickel and dime people at airports as they have little practical choice. You can't when popping into town for a bit of shopping and a Costa.

And if you consider that the proponents of VLR and researchers on automated operation on conventional rail infrastructure might well fund some of the cost of using that, and the railway is already there and near brand new CWR, then it is quite possible a VLR solution will be considerably cheaper than a bus, and even more so than a bus on the main road which would mean two buses to maintain frequency in the traffic.

 

[2192]

Tucked away in this edition of Modern Railways was a small article saying that WMT are investigating options for replacing the Class 139 Parry People Movers, as they are becoming unreliable. They also emphasized that the options would need to be "affordable"....

In what way are they unreliable? Can the unreliability issues be investigated by the owners and improved? Or have the makers lost interest in the design?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In what way are they unreliable? Can the unreliability issues be investigated by the owners and improved? Or have the makers lost interest in the design?

Parry Associates no longer exists as a company, so there is nobody to work on or develop the design.

You could repower them I suppose, removing the flywheel and fitting a car derived diesel engine or similar. But no doubt the bodies, which are bus derived, are probably starting to corrode too.

 

[zwk500]

It's about £6.50 off peak return from Birmingham to Stourbridge, same to Town as Junction. Upping that to £10.50 to allow for two two quid bus fares would mean people would switch to the car.

You can nickel and dime people at airports as they have little practical choice. You can't when popping into town for a bit of shopping and a Costa.

I wouldn't change the price, I'd just allow the use of rail tickets to Stourbridge Town on the bus. However, you next point:

And if you consider that the proponents of VLR and researchers on automated operation on conventional rail infrastructure might well fund some of the cost of using that, and the railway is already there and near brand new CWR, then it is quite possible a VLR solution will be considerably cheaper than a bus, and even more so than a bus on the main road which would mean two buses to maintain frequency in the traffic.

Is well made.

 

[pdeaves]

I thought that the Revolution VLR people at Ironbridge were quite keen that their train got used on the Stourbridge route?

Several people have mentioned Revolution (https://revolutionvlr.com/about/ for details). Given that the solution has to be affordable, I think this is well in the running. It was designed and developed for exactly this sort of route.

 

[Sprinter107]

Whilst the ride quality has never been great on those People Movers, its absolutely apalling now. And the interiors are getting extremely tatty. Something needs doing with them. Either a thorough refurb, or replacement with other vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst the ride quality has never been great on those People Movers, its absolutely apalling now. And the interiors are getting extremely tatty. Something needs doing with them. Either a thorough refurb, or replacement with other vehicles.

Replacement is being investigated as per the opening post. I don't agree on ride, though, simply because the line has been relaid with brand new welded rail which is as smooth as can be!

 

[Sprinter107]

Replacement is being investigated as per the opening post. I don't agree on ride, though, simply because the line has been relaid with brand new welded rail which is as smooth as can be!

Well I'm a regular user, and I can assure you the ride is worse than ever, despite the relaid tracks. I also drove a 153 across many times with jointed track

 

[MattRat]

Well I'm a regular user, and I can assure you the ride is worse than ever, despite the relaid tracks. I also drove a 153 across many times with jointed track

Honestly sounds like something that needs investigating. I'm no engineer, but it sounds like something in the suspension has gone wrong, and that is never a good thing.

 

[Trainbike46]

Are there not some early DLR vehicles coming spare. Bung in DLR type 3rd rail and off you go.

That sounds like a decent solution - and as that's bottom contact third rail the safety case would be easier.

But really, a class 230 with a dlr type 3rd rail would work equally well, wouldn't it? Unless you could somehow retain the self-driving tech used on the DLR, in which case that would be an advantage as you could run with less (or no) staff

 

[zwk500]

That sounds like a decent solution - and as that's bottom contact third rail the safety case would be easier.

But really, a class 230 with a dlr type 3rd rail would work equally well, wouldn't it? Unless you could somehow retain the self-driving tech used on the DLR, in which case that would be an advantage as you could run with less (or no) staff

Annoyingly, it's still new electrification so doesn't fit into the 'low cost' solution being asked for. I personally agree a DLR vehicle shuttling up and down with a PSA would be fine for the line, but it's never going to be busy enough to justify the cost of conversion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Annoyingly, it's still new electrification so doesn't fit into the 'low cost' solution being asked for. I personally agree a DLR vehicle shuttling up and down with a PSA would be fine for the line, but it's never going to be busy enough to justify the cost of conversion.

If you were going to convert it to automatic electric operation an off the shelf airport people mover would probably be the way. Singapore for instance uses a few of these in this sort of context.

On the other hand I wonder if there's any research going on in places like universities or the Transport Systems Catapult* for automation of rail vehicles on conventional lines who might do it as part of that? Guard only operated, with them trained to drive it manually if it gives up. No need for DOO kit or anything, just get up and do it as per the Windsor shuttle.

* When they're not going on about automatic self driving pod things nobody wants or needs.

 

[Trainbike46]

Annoyingly, it's still new electrification so doesn't fit into the 'low cost' solution being asked for. I personally agree a DLR vehicle shuttling up and down with a PSA would be fine for the line, but it's never going to be busy enough to justify the cost of conversion.

It shouldn't be that expensive to put up some bottom contact 3rd rail though - there's definitely no clearance issues, it could be fed from a single point that could be low power (as only ever powering a single vehicle). and bottom contact third rail is standard equipment that is small, light and (comparatively) cheap

 

[The Planner]

It shouldn't be that expensive to put up some bottom contact 3rd rail though - there's definitely no clearance issues, it could be fed from a single point that could be low power (as only ever powering a single vehicle). and bottom contact third rail is standard equipment that is small, light and (comparatively) cheap

Where is the feed coming from? If it doesnt exist then your costs are flying through the roof.

 

[zwk500]

It shouldn't be that expensive to put up some bottom contact 3rd rail though - there's definitely no clearance issues, it could be fed from a single point that could be low power (as only ever powering a single vehicle). and bottom contact third rail is standard equipment that is small, light and (comparatively) cheap

It's still a new connection point, and a new standard for NR to certify and maintain. LNWR won't be paying NR back for it and NR won't spend the money on their own.

 

[Ken H]

Where is the feed coming from? If it doesnt exist then your costs are flying through the roof.

13a plug?

 

[david1212]

Unless something that can be repurposed and only a stop-gap until 2040 very latest regardless of reality politics will require a green solution.

While AFAIK still very much in the outline planning stages there are proposals for Coventry to have a Very Light Railway / Tramway.
The same vehicle could be suitable. Are / will / could Revolution VLR (be) involved ?

Several people have mentioned Revolution (https://revolutionvlr.com/about/ for details). Given that the solution has to be affordable, I think this is well in the running. It was designed and developed for exactly this sort of route.

The issue with any battery system is if enough charge can be added at each turn around so one vehicle can cover a full day. The alternative is a third rail along part of the route which inevitably will add cost. The design and approvals potentially could cost as much as the actual implementation.

 

[HSTEd]

Where is the feed coming from? If it doesnt exist then your costs are flying through the roof.

You can probably feed that installation at low voltage, given it would have at most one small vehicle moving at once. Which will bear down on costs rather a lot.

 

[zwk500]

The issue with any battery system is if enough charge can be added at each turn around so one vehicle can cover a full day. The alternative is a third rail along part of the route which inevitably will add cost. The design and approvals potentially could cost as much as the actual implementation.

If the vehicle is fitted with regenerative braking, then the trip down the hill will help with the charging. Vivarail are testing fast charge stations, as well as EV car manufacturers so the tech is ready for field testing. The big question is if the frequency would need to be dropped to charge it and wether that would have a detrimental impact on passenger numbers.

You can probably feed that installation at low voltage, given it would have at most one small vehicle moving at once. Which will bear down on costs rather a lot.

But somebody still needs to pay to install the 3rd rail, and maintain it. NR won't want to, nor WMT so who will?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the vehicle is fitted with regenerative braking, then the trip down the hill will help with the charging. Vivarail are testing fast charge stations, as well as EV car manufacturers so the tech is ready for field testing. The big question is if the frequency would need to be dropped to charge it and wether that would have a detrimental impact on passenger numbers.

Its sole purpose is to connect with the train service on the Snow Hill lines. Looking at the timetable, the trains in each direction are conveniently quite close together. Thus a 4tph service with all of the layover at the Junction end (which means the charger would need to be there) would seem workable. It's 4tph on Sundays anyway, if I recall.

I believe the 6tph service is primarily because there's the risk of it filling up as it's quite small. The Revolution VLR vehicle seems rather bigger, more like a 153 than a minibus, so won't have that issue.

Here's a thought - could an off the shelf EV fast charger be used, with staff just plugging it in?

 

[Ken H]

...

Here's a thought - could an off the shelf EV fast charger be used, with staff just plugging it in?

Could you make the EV fast charger energise the 3rd rail. What voltage is the input to an EV with a fast charger?
What we dont want is for the vehicle to be stuck at the bottom with a flat battery!

 

[bluenoxid]

Could stick a pantograph mounted to a fixed stand as per buses to recharge the vehicle but I imagine the safety cases required will be substantial.

 

[zwk500]

Its sole purpose is to connect with the train service on the Snow Hill lines. Looking at the timetable, the trains in each direction are conveniently quite close together.

Good.

Here's a thought - could an off the shelf EV fast charger be used, with staff just plugging it in?

Probably not unless an interlock was provided to prevent the unit setting off while connected.

 

[HSTEd]

Probably not unless an interlock was provided to prevent the unit setting off while connected.

Electric cars have such interlocks, so I rather hope a train would have them!

 

[Irascible]

Wondered if dangling that bait would catch anything. Also never got the point of going in there and making it all CWR, all felt like a bit of a spin piece to me.

Is it either someone's pet project, or used for training & testing PWR related matters? does seem somewhat ideal for live testing new technology, at least.

 

[MarkyT]

I like the Vivarail charging concept which uses a short section of conductor rail that is only energised when a train of the correct type is stationary above it. Automatic connection and no powered moving parts, so should be reliable.

 

[skyhigh]

If the People Movers are on their last legs, could you not just do the PRM-lite mods TfW have done on one or two stored 153s and use them until the tram makes it far enough to replace it?

 

[bussnapperwm]

Just convert a pair of Enviro200 buses to rail standards (and add a cab at the other end)