Reliability: TPE 350/4

[Bletchleyite]

The ride is the thing I notice most with the 350/4. After a 185 they really do rock and roll, I guess it must be a combination of the 3 or so metres shorter body and wheelbase, and the difference in weight as they are not carrying a thumping great diesel engine and fuel around.

Also I probably notice the movement more as I am normally in an airline style priority seat in A/D on a 350/4, which are at the gangway end rather than centre of coach B as in a 185.

On LM's 350s the ride is *noticeably* better between the doors than at the ends. This is particularly apparent when crossing from the fasts to the slows at Ledburn, where at the coach ends you get a huge lurch, but in the middles a far smoother movement.

Weight probably does contribute - the Class 221 rides very well but is also very heavy. Then again, little beats the Class 158 ride, even now they're ageing a bit.

Neil

 

[Class 170101]

TPE currently have a single 185 on what should be a 8 car 350 diagram and another single 185 on what should be a 4 car 350 diagram, so they only have 6 x 350s in service instead of 9, so that's 1/3 of the 350/4s that should be in service which aren't.

Should have hired in 350/3s which won't see full use until December even with the increased usage from September between Northampton and Euston.

 

[harz99]

Well the 0422 off GLC was cancelled again yesterday morning.

This time no coach replacement was present at 0550 LOC, the helpline on platform 1 was not connecting to anybody so only option was try National Rail Enquiries, which when they eventually answered could only say someone would be on hand soon to help and the next southbound train would be at 0725. Hmm, the ticket office opens at 0650 so "help" an hour later.

Of the 3 intending pax, one disappeared to drive as he had to be at the airport to meet someone. That left 2 of us bound for MAN.

I decided to try the help point over on platform 2, and it worked!

I was told that a Virgin train had made a special stop at LOC, silence ensued when I pointed out that would be around 0525, 25 minutes earlier than the 0550 departure, so absolutely no help for intending pax.

The upshot was that we were provided a taxi all the way to MAN, eventually departing LOC at 0655. On the motorway into Manchester we passed Salford Crescent station, shortly after that whilst we were crawling in heavy traffic a 350/4 passed en route to MIA, which would have been the 0615 off EDB (0733 off CAR) which does not call at Lockerbie.

It seems this cancellation is to be a regular occurrence. Is it beyond the whit of the people in charge at FTPE to devise a plan for such occasions and stick to it, I guess the answer is yes.

Eventual arrival outside MAN was 0936.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thats 1 lucky cabby! I do wonder if they even have a clue what there doing though!

 

[Starmill]

Wow. A taxi all the way from Lockerbie to Manchester...

 

[northwichcat]

TPE have said passengers who couldn't board the 16:12 Edinburgh-Airport (formed of 4 instead of 8) will have their tickets accepted on the Virgin Trains departure from Edinburgh at 16:52.

 

[Blindtraveler]

which is often a 221 so not really much of a help given that its Friday. The idea of TPE taking the strain off overcrouded VT services has often been the subject of mumps and moans up here however this really has gon on too long now with this nonsense!

 

[harz99]

I posted in another thread about a further failure of the 0422 service ex GLC.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=108279

Subsequent digging brought the following tale:

It appears there are two units in Glasgow stabled overnight each weekday; one is in Central station and is used to form the 0422 departure, the other on depot or siding locally and used to form the 0710.

It would appear that TPE drivers are under instruction to drop the pan on the unit stabled in the platform at Central, and on the above occasion it wouldn't raise when the early driver took over the unit.

Apparently the driver was dispatched to bring the other unit to Central, which he did, then couple up and attempt to raise the failed unit's pan again - which worked. He then decoupled and used the "rescue" unit to form the 0422 which departed around 60' late ECS to Lockerbie and left there only 15' or so late due to the extended running time this service has from GLC to leaving Carlisle.

Now, I wonder how many times this train (or any other) has failed due to the same thing occurring, and if it is really necessary to drop the pan when stabling in a platform - perhaps someone could enlighten me?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, LM certainly seem to leave units powered up at Bletchley overnight so the cleaners can get on board and clean them.

Neil

 

[Blindtraveler]

Is it common for EMU Sets stabling at GLC to drop the pan or is it just a tPE Thing?

 

[harz99]

Is it common for EMU Sets stabling at GLC to drop the pan or is it just a tPE Thing?

I am led to believe it is just a TPE thing.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder if this is down to unfamiliarity with EMUs? Seems odd if another operator of 350s (but which has extensive EMU experience) doesn't bother dropping pantographs overnight.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Indeed. Its just shere incompitence by the sound of it and thats all Iv come to expect now from this opperater. Sorry if it sounds harsh but as a regular user of the North WCML im running out of patients as Im sure are many in a similar position. Thankfully for them they have the option of driving!↲

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm a little out of touch with this one, are these still proving problematic this far into service? They seem quite contrary to the levels of reliability offered by the other variants of Desiro UK - I'm wondering what the reason for the difference is...

 

[Silverlinky]

When the 350's first came out on LM there was an instruction that the pans had to be dropped every 24 hours so the computers and systems could reset themselves. It is part of the daily preparation of the units that the pan is to be lowered and the batteries tripped out before energising and panning up again.

Other instances of the pans being dropped are when there is an isolation of the overhead line due to engineering work. Bletchely was mentioned earlier, its not uncommon for the power to be switched off in the carriage sidings and all traction having their pans lowered for the night.

Problems arise though when the batteries are not tripped out....if the pan is lowered without this being done, or the power turned off whilst the pan is raised eventually it will drop, the units batteries will run certain systems on the train until the power is drained.....and then the fun starts when the units have to be cut back in the next morning.

 

[Boodiggy]

Well, LM certainly seem to leave units powered up at Bletchley overnight so the cleaners can get on board and clean them.

Neil

The pans will need dropped if there is a planned isolation of the OHLE for track / OHLE works. You will notice in slow line possessions around Bletchley the pans will be dropped.

 

[Starmill]

They are sometimes stabled pan down in the platforms at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[ash39]

What happens if you cut the power with the pan up? When locos/units go through neutral sections the pans stay up as far as I'm aware?

Is it more to do with the train running itself flat off the batteries rather than a direct problem caused by cutting the power?

Keeping more on topic, I'm sure I once saw a couple of LM 350's stabled at Euston with the pans down. Might have been Easter Sunday thinking about it though, which would make sense.

 

[Class 170101]

Is there anyone at Glasgow Central who can put the pans down in an emergency? overnight in particular?

If not is it not likely to be a mandatory requirement for pans to be lowered?

 

[cjmillsnun]

What happens if you cut the power with the pan up? When locos/units go through neutral sections the pans stay up as far as I'm aware?

Is it more to do with the train running itself flat off the batteries rather than a direct problem caused by cutting the power?

Keeping more on topic, I'm sure I once saw a couple of LM 350's stabled at Euston with the pans down. Might have been Easter Sunday thinking about it though, which would make sense.

It seems like it's to do with the batteries running down, so there is no power to raise the pan.

 

[harz99]

When the 350's first came out on LM there was an instruction that the pans had to be dropped every 24 hours so the computers and systems could reset themselves. It is part of the daily preparation of the units that the pan is to be lowered and the batteries tripped out before energising and panning up again.

Other instances of the pans being dropped are when there is an isolation of the overhead line due to engineering work. Bletchely was mentioned earlier, its not uncommon for the power to be switched off in the carriage sidings and all traction having their pans lowered for the night.

Problems arise though when the batteries are not tripped out....if the pan is lowered without this being done, or the power turned off whilst the pan is raised eventually it will drop, the units batteries will run certain systems on the train until the power is drained.....and then the fun starts when the units have to be cut back in the next morning.

Thank you!

That last paragraph looks to be a reasonable explanation for what may have happened that time. Which I suppose could be due to the previous driver who stabled the unit being a little hasty to cut away and not shutting down as per procedure.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Could you explain for a thicko like me whats ment by tripping out of the batteries? Im starting to wonder if this is something thats being forgotten by TPE and there simply letting the things just drain themselves hense the issues. If this happens, how do you raise the pan again with no battery power and a load of other similarly affected units?

 

[dgl]

Could you explain for a thicko like me whats ment by tripping out of the batteries? Im starting to wonder if this is something thats being forgotten by TPE and there simply letting the things just drain themselves hense the issues. If this happens, how do you raise the pan again with no battery power and a load of other similarly affected units?

Tripping out the batteries isolates the batteries from the trains electrical system. Not quite sure how it is done but would guess there is either a switch on the outside of the unit or it is just a breaker inside the cab.

As for raising the pan with no battery power I would guess there is a shore power socket on the unit that could be used but I reckon the only place that would have the required outlet would be in depots or a rescue loco/unit that can supply power to the electrical systems.

 

[Silverlinky]

There is a 'battery off' button on the back wall of the cab.

If the pan is lowered things like emergency saloon lighting and other electrical systems are still live and run off the batteries. The batteries drain and you get 'low battery stage 1' after a while, then stage 2, then critical, then dead!

As long as the batteries are not completely dead you can get on the unit and use the battery power to charge the auxiliary compressor, this powers up the pantograph and raises it from where the train can then take power. If the unit is completely dead, as seems to be the case above, the only option is to attach a powered unit to the dead one and cross feed so the dead one can use the good ones power.

 

[ash39]

You would have thought there'd be some kind of system in place whereby when the unit is stabled with the pan down, it would run all the systems and emergency lighting etc as per the above (very informative) post. However, when it gets to critical stage, surely it should shut off leaving enough power in reserve to charge the compressors enough to raise the pan again?

Otherwise you can see how easy it would be to cause this kind of failure.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks to everyone for the explainations. Pure speculation but I'd guess that the chain of events leading to the 04:22 X Glasgows issues is something like:
unit arives in service, pax kicked off. Guard checks train, trolley is detrained, guard secures passenger areas of train, driver dropps pan and keys out then leavs cab but doesnt press battery off button before doing so.

↲
early turn driver arrives in morning, accesses cab, discovers batterys flat, deals with it by iether declaring unit failed or as mentioned earlier by being taxied to depot, starting up the unit there and returning to rescue dead unit in station. ↲
clearly solvable if staff briefed appropriately. We just have to hope they have been!

 

[harz99]

Looks like this one had problems from Penrith onwards tonight:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G34653/2014/12/02/advanced

 

[Blindtraveler]

Yesturday was just a see of problems on the WCML, or so it felt like. In all fareness though my journey on Sunday was problem free.

 

[harz99]

More woes this morning:

0500 ex Manchester delayed en route finally arriving Glasgow 29 late.

0615 ex Edinburgh delayed en route and caped at Preston 46 late.

0812 ex Edinburgh cancelled from Edinburgh to Preston from whence it departed on time. Wonder if that was the unit from the 0615?

All down to train problems as far as I know.

Paradoxically, apart from one morning where a late start of around 25 minutes occurred (made up to right time from Carlisle), the past two weeks have seen the 0422 ex Glasgow operate normally.

 

[Class377/5]

You would have thought there'd be some kind of system in place whereby when the unit is stabled with the pan down, it would run all the systems and emergency lighting etc as per the above (very informative) post. However, when it gets to critical stage, surely it should shut off leaving enough power in reserve to charge the compressors enough to raise the pan again?

Otherwise you can see how easy it would be to cause this kind of failure.

No as if its an incident where you have a train stuck in darkness you try you provide power for lighting as long as you can. The system you suggest exists in the form of tripping out the batteries.