Reliability: TPE 350/4

[Starmill]

These services have piqued too soon. The 'new trains!' media frenzy and cheap tickets bonanza (particularly for 16-25 railcard holders) has caused them to build patronage at a rate that the modest increase in capacity has been unable to cope with. Fixed formation 6 car trains would be fairly appropriate for this route now, operating at 1 train an hour. The idea of having them 4+4 with one going to Liverpool and the other to Manchester Airport looks scuppered - the Manchester portion will continue to be jammed if that's what happens. So what to do? How can the long-term development of the route continue, serving Liverpool as well as an aspiration, when the service as it is regularly falls apart. The new TPE franchise, when they finally materialise (ITT delayed - splendid) should specify new trains for this route. I can't see much of another solution.

 

[Chrism20]

These services have piqued too soon. The 'new trains!' media frenzy and cheap tickets bonanza (particularly for 16-25 railcard holders) has caused them to build patronage at a rate that the modest increase in capacity has been unable to cope with. Fixed formation 6 car trains would be fairly appropriate for this route now, operating at 1 train an hour. The idea of having them 4+4 with one going to Liverpool and the other to Manchester Airport looks scuppered - the Manchester portion will continue to be jammed if that's what happens. So what to do? How can the long-term development of the route continue, serving Liverpool as well as an aspiration, when the service as it is regularly falls apart. The new TPE franchise, when they finally materialise (ITT delayed - splendid) should specify new trains for this route. I can't see much of another solution.

Yes you are pretty much bang on. When the new trains launched there were radio competitions and a sustained period (at least four months) of very frequent (and also pretty annoying) radio adverts up here for the service highlighting more seats, more frequencies and great low fares. I don't think they fully realised that all the increase in capacity was going to do was make it a bit more comfortable.

To think back to around 1998 some of these services ran as two car 158s and now eight car 350s are bursting at the seams some days shows how much growth there has been.

 

[Camden]

Yes you are pretty much bang on. When the new trains launched there were radio competitions and a sustained period (at least four months) of very frequent (and also pretty annoying) radio adverts up here for the service highlighting more seats, more frequencies and great low fares. I don't think they fully realised that all the increase in capacity was going to do was make it a bit more comfortable.

To think back to around 1998 some of these services ran as two car 158s and now eight car 350s are bursting at the seams some days shows how much growth there has been.

Regarding split working, I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Lots of people, including 100% of those travelling from Liverpool, join and fill up these trains at Wigan and Preston. Split working just gives those people direct journeys, with the same residual joining at Wigan and Preston.

If it does mean advance tickets available from Scotland to Liverpool then of course that could mean an uptick in numbers, but there's no way a 4 carriage 350 from Manchester Airport won't be able to cope until it gets to Wigan or Preston. I'd expect the loading figures for this service to show a very large number of people getting on at Preston, north bound. Given that the train already stops on the WCML at Preston, another way they could manage demand is to remove the Wigan stop, or differentiate its pricing, so that people don't use this long distance service as a local train during the peak. Arguably, a direct Liverpool service may eliminate demand for a Wigan stop anyway, and if not then that portion could stop there.

Looking ahead long into the future, Edinburgh could handle 12 carriage trains, as could Preston. Front train only operation at the other intermediate stations, and there's still the ability to add more capacity in the future if it was really needed.

Personally, Milton Keynes is my preferred limit on a 350 so I don't know how you manage it on a regular basis. You can't beat a 225 in my opinion!

 

[WatcherZero]

If it does mean advance tickets available from Scotland to Liverpool then of course that could mean an uptick in numbers, but there's no way a 4 carriage 350 from Manchester Airport won't be able to cope until it gets to Wigan or Preston. I'd expect the loading figures for this service to show a very large number of people getting on at Preston, north bound. Given that the train already stops on the WCML at Preston, another way they could manage demand is to remove the Wigan stop, or differentiate its pricing, so that people don't use this long distance service as a local train during the peak. Arguably, a direct Liverpool service may eliminate demand for a Wigan stop anyway, and if not then that portion could stop there.

You kidding, quite often 6 car 185 and occasionally 8 car 350 have people unable to board at Oxford Road due to crowding. Reverse is also true with 8 car 350 having people standing from Preston and even more standing from Wigan.

From Scotland about 10% will board at Wigan with about 5% disembarking, about 30% will get off at Oxford Road, 60% at Piccadilly and 10-20% continuing to the airport.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

, but there's no way a 4 carriage 350 from Manchester Airport won't be able to cope until it gets to Wigan or Preston. I'd expect the loading figures for this service to show a very large number of people getting on at Preston, north bound. Given that the train already stops on the WCML at Preston, another way they could manage demand is to remove the Wigan stop, or differentiate its pricing, so that people don't use this long distance service as a local train during the peak. !

Ah right, those full and standing 4 car 350s I go on between Manchester and Preston at all times, both peak and off peak (not that TPE really has an off peak ), are a figment of my imagination.

The problem is partly local passengers to Wigan and Preston, but not entirely. Lancaster and other stations also provide very good traffic as do connecting services to / from Barrow and Windermere.

 

[Camden]

Ah right, those full and standing 4 car 350s I go on between Manchester and Preston at all times, both peak and off peak (not that TPE really has an off peak ), are a figment of my imagination.

The problem is partly local passengers to Wigan and Preston, but not entirely. Lancaster and other stations also provide very good traffic as do connecting services to / from Barrow and Windermere.

The service seemed alright when I was on it the other month. I got a seat and a fair number of people also seemed to get seats for their bags too... Not my idea of luxury, but hey I was sat down.

If both sets are joined together at either Wigan or Preston then Lancaster and other stations will have exactly the same number of seats available to them as they have today. it does seem rather selfish to me to expect a big city to go without long distance services just to give local commuters a seat for somewhere within half an hour on those same long distance services which arguably they shouldn't be on.

As my post also touched on, separation of long distance and short distance services seems to be an issue here (which it seems you concede). Commuters from Milton Keynes are not able to join the long distance high speed train into London, why should someone from a small outlying city be able to take up space on a long distance service for a short commute to Manchester? That's a priority consideration, because otherwise in time you could get to 12 carriages and still have an argument against sharing the line. And it should be shared, it's the West Coast Main Line, not the Manchester Main Line!

 

[northwichcat]

To think back to around 1998 some of these services ran as two car 158s and now eight car 350s are bursting at the seams some days shows how much growth there has been.

So you pick the shortest train then and compare it to the longest train now? There were some HSTs which did Birmingham-Manchester-Scotland at around the same time as the 158s were used.

Around that time the hourly service pattern for Manchester-Preston (excluding Scottish services) was:
Buxton to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Cumbria

Now it's:
Victoria to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Blackpool
Hazel Grove to Preston

So while Scottish services have been enhanced there are less alternative services for people travelling to Cumbria.

 

[Chrism20]

So you pick the shortest train then and compare it to the longest train now? There were some HSTs which did Birmingham-Manchester-Scotland at around the same time as the 158s were used.

Around that time the hourly service pattern for Manchester-Preston (excluding Scottish services) was:
Buxton to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Cumbria

Now it's:
Victoria to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Blackpool
Hazel Grove to Preston

So while Scottish services have been enhanced there are less alternative services for people travelling to Cumbria.

I was more referring to the point that back then some of the services were 158s. Boarding at Edinburgh I was almost always able to get a seat, nowadays it's more difficult and sometimes there are eight carriages on the service at a similar time. I am fully aware that some of them ran as HSTs etc hence why I said some services used to run as 158s. Eight car trains were certainly not frequent back then whereas now it is not unusual

The fact that the services are rammed or near to capacity AFTER Preston northbound also highlights this. I've seen people stand all the way from Piccadilly to Edinburgh on an eight car 350 on a Wednesday afternoon whereas many years ago the same service was a two car 158

 

[northwichcat]

Eight car trains were certainly not frequent back then whereas now it is not unusual

The fact that the services are rammed or near to capacity AFTER Preston northbound also highlights this. I've seen people stand all the way from Piccadilly to Edinburgh on an eight car 350 on a Wednesday afternoon whereas many years ago the same service was a two car 158

Only one diagram or 12.5% of Scottish services are booked as 8 car 350s Monday-Thursday, so 8 car working is not common now. Although, for a short period it was more common as TPE subleased additional 350s to provide extra capacity during the Commonwealth Games and Edinburgh Festival.

On Fridays and Saturdays only the number of 8 car workings rises to 25% of Scottish services, as one diagram is diesel operated.

Also note the 350 carriages are only 20m long so a 8 car 350 is only 17.2m longer than a 6 car 185 and part of that extra length is taken up by the extra corridor connections.

I'd also question what you mean about 'the same service.' The northbound Scottish services take the xx:00 path from Manchester Airport which is the path the Manchester Airport to Cumbria services used to use.

 

[Chrism20]

Only one diagram or 12.5% of Scottish services are booked as 8 car 350s Monday-Thursday, so 8 car working is not common now. Although, for a short period it was more common as TPE subleased additional 350s to provide extra capacity during the Commonwealth Games and Edinburgh Festival.

On Fridays and Saturdays only the number of 8 car workings rises to 25% of Scottish services, as one diagram is diesel operated.

Also note the 350 carriages are only 20m long so a 8 car 350 is only 17.2m longer than a 6 car 185 and part of that extra length is taken up by the extra corridor connections.

I'd also question what you mean about 'the same service.' The northbound Scottish services take the xx:00 path from Manchester Airport which is the path the Manchester Airport to Cumbria services used to use.

I must be lucky enough to pick the 8 car one regularly then and if that's the state it's in most of the time I should be thankful.

By the same service I meant the service that ran back when it was a 2 car but is now 8 (or 4 depending on the time of day) at the same time of day albeit not to the exact minute that they run now - they weren't hours out. sorry, I could have been clearer there.

Hopefully electrification when it eventually happens will fix some of the problems along the Preston corridor, it won't solve the problems north of there though unfortunately. The ones that appear to really lost out from the last lot of changes appear to be Bolton and Chorley. I shudder to think what that is like now.

 

[Camden]

I must be lucky enough to pick the 8 car one regularly then and if that's the state it's in most of the time I should be thankful.

And I must have been lucky enough to pick the one 4 carriage train with plenty of free seats (until it got to Preston when tons of people piled on).

 

[Chrism20]

And I must have been lucky enough to pick the one 4 carriage train with plenty of free seats (until it got to Preston when tons of people piled on).

Oh I must be imagining things then or perhaps I'm making it up. Highly likely when less than twenty four hours ago someone else said these trains should be running in six car fixed formations.

Yes lots of people get on at Preston. When they are selling advances that are (most of the time) much cheaper than Virgin it's ibvious that this is the service that is going to be much busier. Unfortunately the demand outstrips supply over almost all of the route.

 

[Starmill]

If it does mean advance tickets available from Scotland to Liverpool then of course that could mean an uptick in numbers, but there's no way a 4 carriage 350 from Manchester Airport won't be able to cope until it gets to Wigan or Preston. I'd expect the loading figures for this service to show a very large number of people getting on at Preston, north bound. Given that the train already stops on the WCML at Preston, another way they could manage demand is to remove the Wigan stop, or differentiate its pricing, so that people don't use this long distance service as a local train during the peak. Arguably, a direct Liverpool service may eliminate demand for a Wigan stop anyway, and if not then that portion could stop there.

There are already advance tickets available from Liverpool to Scottish stations. I'm afraid that's nonsense about a single 350 coming from the Airport. As I said, apart from maybe very early on weekend mornings (even the 0700 from the Airport gets full at the northern end of the route on a Saturday morning) could fill 6 carriages all day. Also note that the trains already omit Wigan in the peaks.

Also, Standard Class 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' advances (not VWC & CONNECTNS, as you would get if going to liverpool) are cheaper than AP TPE ONLY ones. TPE's First Class is cheaper that's it. From Manchester TPE tend to appear cheaper because you don't notice the Virgin & Connections ones in the booking engine, and Virgin charge a large premium for connecting trains. It's often cheaper to buy a ticket to Wigan (all within the TfGM area) and then a VT Only advance to Scotland.

 

[Class83]

There are already advance tickets available from Liverpool to Scottish stations. I'm afraid that's nonsense about a single 350 coming from the Airport. As I said, apart from maybe very early on weekend mornings (even the 0700 from the Airport gets full at the northern end of the route on a Saturday morning) could fill 6 carriages all day. Also note that the trains already omit Wigan in the peaks.

Also, Standard Class 'VIRGIN TRNS ONLY' advances (not VWC & CONNECTNS, as you would get if going to liverpool) are cheaper than AP TPE ONLY ones. TPE's First Class is cheaper that's it. From Manchester TPE tend to appear cheaper because you don't notice the Virgin & Connections ones in the booking engine, and Virgin charge a large premium for connecting trains. It's often cheaper to buy a ticket to Wigan (all within the TfGM area) and then a VT Only advance to Scotland.

It's rather difficult to get a Virgin Trains Only route from Liverpool to Scotland unless you double back at Crewe. If the trains were made uplift only at Wigan/Preston and all reservations for Liverpool, Wigan, Preston & Lancaster were put in the Liverpool portion it might work ok.

However, there aren't enough units to operate split services with the 350/4s. Perhaps an order for 3*23m units would be possible, which could then operate 6 car to Manchester and 3 car to Liverpool, 9 diagrams so would need 30 odd units though. The lack of through services for the last 10-15 years probably suppresses some demand from Liverpool-Scotland and Vice versa, so the current ratio of journeys probably isn't wholly representative. The 350/4s could then do Liverpool-Birmingham for London Midland.

 

[Chrism20]

It's rather difficult to get a Virgin Trains Only route from Liverpool to Scotland unless you double back at Crewe. If the trains were made uplift only at Wigan/Preston and all reservations for Liverpool, Wigan, Preston & Lancaster were put in the Liverpool portion it might work ok.

However, there aren't enough units to operate split services with the 350/4s. Perhaps an order for 3*23m units would be possible, which could then operate 6 car to Manchester and 3 car to Liverpool, 9 diagrams so would need 30 odd units though. The lack of through services for the last 10-15 years probably suppresses some demand from Liverpool-Scotland and Vice versa, so the current ratio of journeys probably isn't wholly representative. The 350/4s could then do Liverpool-Birmingham for London Midland.

It might not bear much relevance but three separate airlines, two of them being Easy and Flybe have both tried Liverpool from Edinburgh in the last fifteen or so years and none of them have lasted more than one season. Rail is of course different and the frequency would be better (I think Flybe done it three daily during the week) and there is the intermediate stops for additional traffic.

Personally I'd rather see the airport capacity bolstered along with the Preston and TPE core corridors and they get that right before spreading themselves even further. That just my opinion and everyone will have a different view on it at the end of the day.

 

[Starmill]

It's rather difficult to get a Virgin Trains Only route from Liverpool to Scotland unless you double back at Crewe. If the trains were made uplift only at Wigan/Preston and all reservations for Liverpool, Wigan, Preston & Lancaster were put in the Liverpool portion it might work ok.

I think it's impossible. Crewe isn't on a permitted route between Liverpool and Glasgow, so although a Virgin Trains Only fare exists the booking engine will not give it to you. A ticket office might be able to issue it, but I wouldn't hold much hope.

As for your obsession with removing Manchester to Wigan and Preston passengers from these services I'm afraid this isn't going to happen unless some sort of alternative can be found for them. I agree that long-distance traffic should be prioritised, and my view is that in the long term once the Bolton route is wired, Manchester Airport - Scotland trains should take this route and be non-stop from Oxford Road to Preston throughout the day.

However, as it is, the new faster services from Wigan North Western to Manchester took on many passengers who would otherwise have used what used to be the fastest service - the Southport - Manchester Airport via Bolton trains. This in turn meant that after calling at Hindley (also fastest service) and Westhoughton (only service) there was still some room in them to hoover up the hordes of Bolton commuters, many of whom had previously been on these trains from Scotland. So in order to avoid leaving passengers at behind at Bolton (which is still running at something below the capacity it was before TPE reduced their service through there - thank you very much delayed 319 introduction), Wigan passengers need to go somewhere else. Send them all down the all-stops Atherton line so that people at Moorside and Swinton can't get on?

There is not an easy solution. The only thing that's certain is that more carriages are needed.

 

[harz99]

It's been very quiet on the 350/4 front lately. Today I travelled on an 8 car working with no issues. On Wednesday I travelled on a six car 170 working from Leeds to Manchester.

Does this mean that the 350s have finally settled down, and TPE's stock shortages are easing? Or have the closure of the Airport station and temporarily increased layovers at Manchester concealed any failings?

If it's the former, good.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's been very quiet on the 350/4 front lately. Today I travelled on an 8 car working with no issues. On Wednesday I travelled on a six car 170 working from Leeds to Manchester.

Does this mean that the 350s have finally settled down, and TPE's stock shortages are easing? Or have the closure of the Airport station and temporarily increased layovers at Manchester concealed any failings?

If it's the former, good.

There was a temporary blip when they improved slightly, but they have dipped again lately, especially in the cold weather. Numerous faults with compressors and couplers this week, and a recurring brake fault on 350401 which saw it taken out of traffic again today and a 185 put on the diagram, leaving the North route with short forms in the afternoon peak.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Anyboddy fancy hunting round for the reciept? This product should be returned as faulty and exchanged for a few 90 plus DVT Rakes of MK2s and a revised timetable and before anyone yells at me No I Dont believe LHCs are the be all and end all, Id just like to prove the point that this 5↲plus year old train can trundle up and down to Scotland with less issues than a 15 month old one!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Anyboddy fancy hunting round for the reciept? This product should be returned as faulty and exchanged for a few 90 plus DVT Rakes of MK2s and a revised timetable and before anyone yells at me No I Dont believe LHCs are the be all and end all, Id just like to prove the point that this 5↲plus year old train can trundle up and down to Scotland with less issues than a 15 month old one!

Send them to LM, they should be able to make use of them, failing that send them to SWT (would it take long to install shoes and connect the shoes up?)

 

[dk1]

Anyboddy fancy hunting round for the reciept? This product should be returned as faulty and exchanged for a few 90 plus DVT Rakes of MK2s and a revised timetable and before anyone yells at me No I Dont believe LHCs are the be all and end all, Id just like to prove the point that this 5↲plus year old train can trundle up and down to Scotland with less issues than a 15 month old one!

Two spectacular class 90/DVT failures on the GEML this week.

 

[Elecman]

The 350 I was travelling on failed with frozen compressor on Thursday at
Kitson Wood, just got a letter from TPE asking for my tickets for a delay compensation claim.

 

[Blindtraveler]

They should (assuming no sensible person scraps them beforehand) have an easier summer this yeas due to no commonwealth games or hords of bashers wanting to try out the trams but the fact remains that TPE should maybe be offering a gang of LM Fitters plur a senior engineer a few days all expenses paid holiday to Ardwick to have a good look? Be cheeper than the thousands monthly in delay repay and other penaltys for cansilations, delays and short forms in 185 land due to a couple being pinched for a wee jornt to Glasgow and back.↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Two spectacular class 90/DVT failures on the GEML this week.

Wasnt aware of this, but I'd be mighty surprised if the fail rate is as high as the numbers of 350s we get sitting down round here.

 

[cjmillsnun]

They should (assuming no sensible person scraps them beforehand) have an easier summer this yeas due to no commonwealth games or hords of bashers wanting to try out the trams but the fact remains that TPE should maybe be offering a gang of LM Fitters plur a senior engineer a few days all expenses paid holiday to Ardwick to have a good look? Be cheeper than the thousands monthly in delay repay and other penaltys for cansilations, delays and short forms in 185 land due to a couple being pinched for a wee jornt to Glasgow and back.↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wasnt aware of this, but I'd be mighty surprised if the fail rate is as high as the numbers of 350s we get sitting down round here.

IIRC LM's 350s are maintained by Siemens (as are TPE's 350s and 185s, and SWTs 450s and 444s). If that's the case, then it seems stupid that Siemens don't send fitters up either from Northam (SWT) or Northampton (LM) who know the Desiro electrics well. It may also be worth a DM being sent up from LM to look at how the trains are driven (including stabled).

As for scrapping them? I'm sure Northern would swap em for some Pacers

 

[Starmill]

Anyboddy fancy hunting round for the reciept? This product should be returned as faulty and exchanged for a few 90 plus DVT Rakes of MK2s and a revised timetable and before anyone yells at me No I Dont believe LHCs are the be all and end all, Id just like to prove the point that this 5↲plus year old train can trundle up and down to Scotland with less issues than a 15 month old one!

Because a mark 2 offers vastly superior passenger accommodation to a 350/4 does it!?

 

[Blindtraveler]

In a word, Yes, if propperly refurbed and well looked after, it was said part toung in cheek anyway TBH.

 

[harz99]

Because a mark 2 offers vastly superior passenger accommodation to a 350/4 does it!?

For the vast majority of the travelling public, yes. As would a mark 3 ala Chiltern.

 

[thealexweb]

Anyboddy fancy hunting round for the reciept? This product should be returned as faulty and exchanged for a few 90 plus DVT Rakes of MK2s and a revised timetable and before anyone yells at me No I Dont believe LHCs are the be all and end all, Id just like to prove the point that this 5↲plus year old train can trundle up and down to Scotland with less issues than a 15 month old one!

Loco-hauled sets would be too sensible. Once TPE's Class 350s toddle off to London Midlands in the coming years an excellent replacement would be refurbished 225 sets as they become available from the ECML.

 

[northwichcat]

Once TPE's Class 350s toddle off to London Midlands in the coming years an excellent replacement would be refurbished 225 sets as they become available from the ECML.

That's what is expected to happen but no contract has been signed.

 

[Wolfie]

That's what is expected to happen but no contract has been signed.

Expected by who? At face value 225s would be complete overkill for TPE.