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Reform UK discussion

brad465

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Yusuf now returning in a different role after all that:


Zia Yusuf, who resigned as Reform UK chairman on Thursday, is to return to work for the party in a new role.
Yusuf will lead what the party calls its "Doge team" – which is modelled on the Department of Government Efficiency set up by US President Donald Trump.
Earlier this week, Yusuf quit the party, saying working to get the party elected was no longer "a good use of my time", without expanding further.
On Saturday, Reform UK leader Nigel Farage told the BBC that Yusuf will take on a more public role for the party in a new role, appearing more frequently in the media.
He said: "Zia regrets what he said and did the other day. It was a combination of 11 months hard work and exhaustion."
In a post on X, Yusuf said he had received a large number of messages urging him to reconsider leaving the party and explained why he quit two days ago.
"After 11 months of working as a volunteer to build a political party from scratch, with barely a single day off, my tweet was a decision born of exhaustion," he wrote.
Yusuf said he came into politics "out of belief that Nigel Farage was the man" to lead the country, adding "I believe in these things more than ever".
Before his resignation, Yusuf had criticised Sarah Pochin, who won last month's Runcorn and Helsby by-election for the party.
She urged Sir Keir Starmer to ban the burka "in the interests of public safety" during Prime Minister's Questions debut on Wednesday.
Yusuf said it was "dumb for a party to ask the PM if they would do something the party itself wouldn't do".
 
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YorkshireBear

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Why such drama. Why does everyone (and by this I mean all political parties pretty much and also media, celebs etc.) permanently live out their lives as if they are still 14 year olds falling out about girlfriends/boyfriends.
 

styles

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Let's hope no-one from Reform has ever been to a traditional Christian wedding or funeral. Very common for veils to be worn covering the whole face.
Legislation around face coverings tends to make exemptions for places of worship anyway, such as in France, where it is explicitly exempted, or Denmark where it is implicit by the definition of a public place.

It would also have the effect of banning balaclavas and such, as these laws (at least in western countries) are against face coverings more generally, rather than specifically religious face coverings, the former having being ruled by human rights courts as acceptable, whereas the latter would almost certainly be open to challenge!
 

jon0844

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Seems another councillor or two have stepped down recently. How long until every Reform councillor has gone?!

The cost for finding replacements must be impressive for the 'Reform DOGE' supporters.
 

styles

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I think it is overplayed a bit when it comes to Reform.

E.g. since the elections.. a Labour councillor quit amidst bullying allegations
A Labour politician has quit as one of the party's local councillors and alleges she has "sustained bullying and marginalisation within the group".

Another Labour one for not towing the party line
A Greenwich Labour councillor who spoke up for local residents protesting against the sale of council land in her ward has quit after being threatened with a six-week suspension.

Two Labour councillors in Plymouth resigned on the same day over party leadership
In a significant blow to Plymouth's Labour group, two councillors have quit the party in a single day, choosing to continue their roles as independents.

Councillor Carol Ney of Southway announced her departure from the Labour Party this afternoon, becoming the second Labour representative to resign today.

Councillors come and go all the time. It might be slightly higher for a party which hasn't had councillors before, but it's hardly a mass exodus.

Don't get complacent.
 
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styles

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I'm not complacent - but what do we do to fight them?
In local councils? Find a party which wants genuine change and campaign for them. Or stand for election.

At a national level? Probably try and convince the Labour party leadership to not be so inept and boring. That's a harder slog though!
 

brad465

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At a national level? Probably try and convince the Labour party leadership to not be so inept and boring. That's a harder slog though!
Not be inept, yes, but boring is what politicians should be, if it means getting things done. We've seen what happens on both sides of the pond when "reality TV stars" are elected to office.

Maybe the decline of creativity in the media industry in recent years has caused critics to look to politics for "entertainment". If so, Steven Spielberg and co. really need to up their game to reverse this.
 

styles

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Not be inept, yes, but boring is what politicians should be, if it means getting things done. We've seen what happens on both sides of the pond when "reality TV stars" are elected to office.

Maybe the decline of creativity in the media industry in recent years has caused critics to look to politics for "entertainment". If so, Steven Spielberg and co. really need to up their game to reverse this.
I agree politicians should be boring, or at least, not merely eccentric wombles. But I think part of the reason Farage, Trump, Blair, Johnson, etc do so well is because they actually have a personality.

Starmer has been elected on the, ahem, strong and stable, ticket, because people are frankly sick of the chaos we've had over the last 14 years. But it won't last. Being a robotic sounding PR body won't keep him in long term.

Whereas people see Farage down the boozer, talking a bit posh but not mincing his words and repeating the same soundbites over and over. He comes across more genuine than someone like Starmer to many people.

It's very frustrating as well because most Labour leaders have decent personalities.. until they are elected leader. Ed Miliband was proper sassy on Twitter before becoming leader, then after finishing being leader, but while he was leader you'd look at his Twitter and presumed it had been taken over by some party comms intern. Heck even May could take a joke before being in the Cabinet Office, then boring as sin while leader, then actually quite funny herself when she returned to the backbenches.

Politicians need to be serious overall, but not every minute of every day. And they should feel empowered to speak like they normally do, rather than just repeating meaningless lines created by an advisor.

Add to that Labour's inability to create bold and consistent policy, and I just can't see them doing well in the next election. Maybe they'll hold on to government, 4 years is a long time yet, but unless they deliver radical change and Starmer develops a personality, I can't see their stonking majority returning.

And I do think both are required - radical change and a personality. Without the latter, even if he's done well, Badenoch and Farage will rinse him in debates.
 

nw1

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I agree politicians should be boring, or at least, not merely eccentric wombles. But I think part of the reason Farage, Trump, Blair, Johnson, etc do so well is because they actually have a personality.

Starmer has been elected on the, ahem, strong and stable, ticket, because people are frankly sick of the chaos we've had over the last 14 years. But it won't last. Being a robotic sounding PR body won't keep him in long term.

Whereas people see Farage down the boozer, talking a bit posh but not mincing his words and repeating the same soundbites over and over. He comes across more genuine than someone like Starmer to many people.

It's very frustrating as well because most Labour leaders have decent personalities.. until they are elected leader. Ed Miliband was proper sassy on Twitter before becoming leader, then after finishing being leader, but while he was leader you'd look at his Twitter and presumed it had been taken over by some party comms intern. Heck even May could take a joke before being in the Cabinet Office, then boring as sin while leader, then actually quite funny herself when she returned to the backbenches.

Politicians need to be serious overall, but not every minute of every day. And they should feel empowered to speak like they normally do, rather than just repeating meaningless lines created by an advisor.

Add to that Labour's inability to create bold and consistent policy, and I just can't see them doing well in the next election. Maybe they'll hold on to government, 4 years is a long time yet, but unless they deliver radical change and Starmer develops a personality, I can't see their stonking majority returning.

And I do think both are required - radical change and a personality. Without the latter, even if he's done well, Badenoch and Farage will rinse him in debates.

No chance of a stonking majority for Labour I suspect but one glimmer of hope I have is that Reform will botch things in the councils they control just in time for the next election and we end up with the non-Reform contingent having enough MPs for a coalition.

The Tories are also the big unknown in this; get a decent leader who ditches the culture war stuff and they could win, I guess. I am no Tory supporter but having lived much of my life under their rule, I can say they would be considerably less bad than the likes of Reform. (As an analogy, who would you prefer as president of the USA? George W. Bush, or Trump? No fan of the former but definitely the least bad of the two options...)

But either way, I agree there is no room to be complacent.

I do wonder whether the late 2010s / 2020s fashion for right-wing populism will pass, though. Every era has its dominant politics (for example in the UK in the 1980s it was Thatcherism; in the 90s and 00s it was a mix of social liberalism and free market; and now it's right-wing populism) and I think the fad will pass at some point, but it might take multiple major Western countries having right-wing populist leaders who screw things up badly before it does so.

Exactly how the remaining 3.5 years of the Trump presidency goes will be another factor, I suspect. If it's a complete disaster and the US slides into authoritarianism and a major economic crisis (at least evens chance IMO), I suspect other countries will be put off copying the US example.
 
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styles

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No chance of a stonking majority I suspect but one glimmer of hope I have is that if Reform win more councils next year, they'll botch things just in time for the next election.

The Tories are also the big unknown in this; get a decent leader who ditches the culture war stuff and they could win, I guess. I am no Tory supporter but having lived much of my life under their rule, I can say they would be considerably less bad than the likes of Reform. (As an analogy, who would you prefer as president of the USA? George W. Bush, or Trump? No fan of the former but definitely the least bad of the two options...)

But either way, I agree there is no room to be complacent.
See in current politics, I think some of the culture wars stuff is essential. It's not good for politics or society, but it wins votes. But the trick is to 'cool' it. Or as this study from KCL puts it more articulately than me:

Finally, as recognised by a number of reviews, it is difficult to avoid the need to
appeal to a sense of duty and virtue in political leaders to cool things down
rather raise the temperature further, and we ourselves must get better at
recognising when we’re being targeted through culture war issues (practising
an “identity mindfulness” in Ezra Klein’s terms)
– although this is clearly
difficult to achieve when many political and media incentives work in the other
direction.


Basically people want these stances which lie on one side of a clear division, and they will vote for a party which holds strong values, but it needs moderating.

I think personally part of the reason Reform does so well at the moment is that they have these clear stances on divisive issues, but Yusuf professionalised the party, tempered the tone, and made them appear competent.
 

nw1

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See in current politics, I think some of the culture wars stuff is essential. It's not good for politics or society, but it wins votes. But the trick is to 'cool' it. Or as this study from KCL puts it more articulately than me:




Basically people want these stances which lie on one side of a clear division, and they will vote for a party which holds strong values, but it needs moderating.

I think personally part of the reason Reform does so well at the moment is that they have these clear stances on divisive issues, but Yusuf professionalised the party, tempered the tone, and made them appear competent.

Perhaps then we need a left party which also takes clear stances on divisive issues, but in the other direction.
A party which aims to fix the NHS and bring down the cost of living without all the anti-immigration, anti-trans stuff could do pretty well on (obviously) the liberal left but also the centre, too.

In all honesty perhaps Labour is not that party, and we need a new party on the left. But it should avoid being too hard-left (e.g. it needs a sensible defence policy).
 
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styles

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Perhaps then we need a left party which also takes clear stances on divisive issues, but in the other direction.

A party which aims to fix the NHS and bring down the cost of living without all the anti-immigration, anti-trans stuff could do pretty well on (obviously) the liberal left but also the centre, too.
Well yes, this is traditionally what one would vote Labour for.

Instead we have Streeting advocating for private companies in the NHS, Starmer repeating the anti-immigration narrative but with insufficient gusto to make it believable to Reform voters, and an inability to challenge the 'balancing the books' approach to the economy as if the UK's budget is like a wallet.

I've had to hold my nose voting the past few years. And I'm somebody who was once involved in canvassing and campaigning with a political party, so not like I haven't tried to make a difference.

I've somewhat given up on actively being involved in politics. I spend time volunteering with charities who I believe make a difference regardless of which party is in power. But then I see it as a sorry state of affairs when fixing the country's problems has to fall on so many charities. There will always be a need to an extent, but it seems more and more reliant on the third sector to plug what the state should be doing.

This is perhaps diverging from the topic of Reform though so I'll probably leave it there!
 

RailWonderer

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No chance of a stonking majority for Labour I suspect but one glimmer of hope I have is that Reform will botch things in the councils they control just in time for the next election and we end up with the non-Reform contingent having enough MPs for a coalition.

The Tories are also the big unknown in this; get a decent leader who ditches the culture war stuff and they could win, I guess. I am no Tory supporter but having lived much of my life under their rule, I can say they would be considerably less bad than the likes of Reform. (As an analogy, who would you prefer as president of the USA? George W. Bush, or Trump? No fan of the former but definitely the least bad of the two options...)

But either way, I agree there is no room to be complacent.

I do wonder whether the late 2010s / 2020s fashion for right-wing populism will pass, though. Every era has its dominant politics (for example in the UK in the 1980s it was Thatcherism; in the 90s and 00s it was a mix of social liberalism and free market; and now it's right-wing populism) and I think the fad will pass at some point, but it might take multiple major Western countries having right-wing populist leaders who screw things up badly before it does so.
None of it will pass until establishments of leaders, lords, MPs, supreme court judges and civil servants start listening to voters. The British establishment with the Horizon scandal and grooming scandal has a habit of covering everything up to avoid blame, promote agendas, and it's rotten to the core.

Western Europe has been flooded with ghettos of immigrants, some of whom are culturally hostile, indifferent and culturally incompatible people. Instead of mass migration deterrance, this governement systematically covered up problems with mass migration so they could continue dismissing those against them as fascist and racist. Justice was denied to thousands of victims as a result and this has been proven.

One night in Oldham in 2006, for example, a 12-year-old girl named “Sophie” entered a police station and reported that she had just been molested in a graveyard by a man named “Ali.” A desk officer told her to come back with an adult when she was sober. Two men accosted her in the police station. Joined by a third, they raped her in their car. When they dumped her on the street, she asked a man named Sarwar Ali for directions. He took her to his home, raped her, and gave her money for bus fare home. A man named Shakil Chowdhury pulled up in his car and offered to take her home. He abducted her and took her to a house where he and four other men repeatedly raped her.

Several girls were murdered. In Manchester in 2003, Victoria Agoglia was repeatedly drugged and raped before being given a fatal dose of heroin at the age of 15. In Blackpool that same year, 14-year-old Charlene Downes disappeared—her body was never found.

In Telford, Azhar Ali Mehmood groomed Lucy Lowe from the age of 12 and impregnated her at 14. He burned her alive in her own home with her mother, her disabled sister, and her unborn second child, also fathered by Mehmood. Mehmood was jailed for life in 2001 for murder—not sex crimes.
In the last 12 months the crack team of expert investigators and analysts has helped police forces arrest over 550 suspects, identify and protect over 4,000 victims, and build up robust cases to get justice for these appalling crimes.
The government started in 2023 to tackle this, and this is highlisted in the gov uk article, but it's putting a bandage on a gaping wound.
Safeguarding minister Jess Phillips’ decision to block a public inquiry into the Oldham grooming gangs seems, from the outside, to be almost inexplicable. Children were raped and abused by gangs of men while the authorities failed to protect them.

Do you still wonder why populism won't go away?

Populism vanished in Denmark because they pragmatically listened to people and governed in the nation's best interest decided by and for the people.

The UK is only a masquerade democracy as most of the power is held by the unelected Cabinet Office and political positions and conclusions of meetings are pre scripted and predetermined by civil service officials with no expertise in their given fields. Dominic Cummings highlighted this here.
Now come and tell me a dishwater dull moderate with no will to change things will govern in the interests and wishes of the people. It's disdainful I-know-better mentalities in government that lead to widespread discontent, people with genuine greviences being called fascists and racists.
 
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AlterEgo

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Not be inept, yes, but boring is what politicians should be, if it means getting things done.
The country needs radical change. Britain’s preference for boring managers is its undoing.

With the country the state that it is in, boring doesn’t cut it.
 

nw1

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The country needs radical change. Britain’s preference for boring managers is its undoing.

With the country the state that it is in, boring doesn’t cut it.

Depends what is needed by "radical change".
Certainly the "radical change" that Reform UK appear to (by my interpretation) wish to impose frightens me - to a far greater extent than any other government or political decision that I've experienced.

I am no fan of Brexit but Reform makes even Brexit look like a walk in the park.

I fear for such things as freedom of speech under a Reform government. I fear for minority rights. I even wonder whether liberals and intellectuals might be targeted, in the same kind of manner as Trump's politically-motivated attacks on Harvard. Basically my prediction is that we may well get similar things happening here as are happening currently in the USA.

Yes, there are some very big problems at the moment (the NHS and the cost of living are the two big ones) but Reform UK are not the solution. Most of our problems are down to external factors such as Covid, the actions of Russia and Israel, and the threat of unethical uses of AI, and are common to all Western countries. I don't really understand the singling-out of the UK when other similar countries are going through the same kinds of issues. Reform UK will just make things worse, I don't think they are particularly interested in fixing the NHS and I doubt the big-money backers behind them are particularly interested in tackling the cost-of-living crisis either. For one thing, I suspect Reform thrive off people's misfortunes - the last thing they want, I suspect, is for the population's lot to be significantly improved as there will be then less anger and blame to be misdirected at immigrants and minorities.

The only "radical change" I'd be happy with is a move leftwards, and would likely be in the exact opposite direction to what is proposed by Reform. Fixing the NHS and the cost of living crisis would be a top priority, as well as reversing the attacks on minority rights and introducing legislation to prevent the replacement of human job roles with AI.

Maybe it's me getting older - I'm now firmly mid-life - but I view radicalism with increasing nervousness these days. It seems the dominant form of radicalism is right-wing radicalism and that scares me.
 
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AlterEgo

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Depends what is needed by "radical change".
Probably a change to the voting system entirely, an elected upper chamber, removal of political patronage, overhaul of the honours system, total dismantling of the Establishment. Britain is very unwell and the ability to fail upwards in politics, business and the civil service is completely undermining civil society. There is little accountability for gross failures, and the state often rows in behind its representatives because it is fearful of wholesale change which might result from scandal.

No major party is offering this except for Reform. Some of their policy positions make sense, but the party has become another useful receptacle for unacceptable opinion. When you get people advocating for immigration restrictions who are really are quite simply racist, it makes it much easier for other people to counter it with policy based on opposing racism rather than considering the greater good. Large scale immigration has been bad for Britain. Much of this issue lies with New Labour’s propensity for social engineering and the selling of a dream that everyone can be middle class. (There’s another thing which can go - class based signifiers!)
 

nw1

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Probably a change to the voting system entirely, an elected upper chamber, removal of political patronage, overhaul of the honours system, total dismantling of the Establishment. Britain is very unwell and the ability to fail upwards in politics, business and the civil service is completely undermining civil society. There is little accountability for gross failures, and the state often rows in behind its representatives because it is fearful of wholesale change which might result from scandal.

No major party is offering this except for Reform. Some of their policy positions make sense, but the party has become another useful receptacle for unacceptable opinion. When you get people advocating for immigration restrictions who are really are quite simply racist, it makes it much easier for other people to counter it with policy based on opposing racism rather than considering the greater good. Large scale immigration has been bad for Britain. Much of this issue lies with New Labour’s propensity for social engineering and the selling of a dream that everyone can be middle class. (There’s another thing which can go - class based signifiers!)

Some of those I would agree with, but not others. In particular I don't agree that large-scale immigration has been bad for Britain. The country was - until the late 2010s - following a path of becoming more tolerant and less racist and xenophobic compared to say 30-40 years previously, and that to me was a good thing. Also as someone with a strong belief in libertarianism I believe that, if you have skills useful to society, you should be able to live and work more or less where you like as long as you are not seen as a national security threat. One thing that infuriates me is "locals" looking down on outsiders, and that applies even in UK-citizen-on-UK-citizen cases.

Thinking about it longer-term, if Western countries pull up the drawbridge and keep skilled immigrants out, it's only going to increase anger and resentment in the Third World and potentially cause yet more global instability, as if there wasn't enough already. That's the last thing we need.

I'm not sure what you mean by "total dismantling of the Establishment", do you mean moving to becoming a republic?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "...opposing racism rather than considering the greater good". Are you implying that opposing racism is incompatible with the greater good? Surely opposing racism (and xenophobia, and prejudice towards particular religions) is a good thing and a high priority - especially when you consider that many or even most of the world's problems are down to conflict between different religions, races and nationalities.

Whether Reform agree with some of the above is by-the-by as I basically see them as Trump UK, and the last thing I want is for the UK to be in the same situation the USA is in right now in five years' time.
 
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AlterEgo

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Some of those I would agree with, but not others. In particular I don't agree that large-scale immigration has been bad for Britain. The country was - until the late 2010s - following a path of becoming more tolerant and less racist and xenophobic compared to say 30-40 years previously, and that to me was a good thing.
Have you looked at immigration since the late 2010s? Do you think that might have contributed to the issue in the last five years? There’s a lot of *visible* immigration, which is the crux of the issue.

Britain is not an assimilatory society and does not demand that immigrants become British in any meaningful way, because it refuses to even define what Britishness is.

You’re right in that it is a tolerant society. But it has never been accepting.

Also as someone with a strong belief in libertarianism I believe that, if you have skills useful to society, you should be able to live and work more or less where you like.
That’s a very selective view of libertarianism. I assume you don’t subscribe to the libertarian view that businesses should have free hand to serve or not serve whoever they like, for example. I mean it’s not even libertarian to put conditions on where one can work or live. Why is it only if you have useful skills?

Thinking about it longer-term, if Western countries pull up the drawbridge and keep immigrants out, it's only going to increase anger and resentment in the Third World and potentially cause yet more global instability, as if there wasn't enough already. That's the last thing we need.
We should let immigrants in because if we don’t they’ll be cross?

You know what would be much better? If developing countries were better supported in becoming stable states, instead of being hotbeds of emigration. Low quality immigration we simply don’t need. High quality immigration we certainly do in the medium term, but that just results in brain drain. You can look at South Africa for that; a country of ever increasing incompetence as its best and brightest move out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "total dismantling of the Establishment", do you mean moving to becoming a republic?
Probably the only way to achieve that, as well as land ownership reform. The entire foundation of Britain needs to change. People are very afraid of it.
 

brad465

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The country needs radical change. Britain’s preference for boring managers is its undoing.

With the country the state that it is in, boring doesn’t cut it.
True, but good luck getting a critical mass of the public to a) back whatever specific radical change is necessary and b) give the right people/party the time and space needed to implement it.

The current system is so entrenched, that a genuine well-meaning person with whatever the right answers are, will not succeed. They will either encounter a glass ceiling, or will have to be corrupted to get through that ceiling, by which point the radical change they previously wanted won't be happening. It's entrenched because there are too many powerful groups behind the scenes holding the real power, and they have enough money to keep things that way.

The only way I can see it being overridden is a level of public pressure so intense and sustained that it cannot be ignored. This would require millions camping outside Westminster and several other cities, and/or some other form of major protest, but given how lazy most of the UK population are, this won't happen unless the country is literally burning. We moan, but leave it at that. For this reason I think those who shout "they're all the same" are at least as much at fault as the politicians they're referring to, because they fail to do anything meaningful to address their grievances, or when someone tells them the cause and the solutions, they dismiss them as wrong and fail to suggest alternatives.

For example, if I said "they're all the same because FPTP puts power in a handful of swing voters, so major parties say the same things to appeal to this small group; a PR system would allow more choices and more voters to swing elections," they respond, "PR? Look at [insert country with PR system], conveniently ignoring that almost all the claimed drawkbacks of PR have happening in the UK under FPTP since at least 2015.

Then on high immigration, I could tell critics: "Our capitalist system demands an increasing number of workers to prop up the GDP growth model, particularly as birth rates are not high enough to sustain this", they respond, "You think socialism/communism is any better?" as if they are the only alternative economic models.

Then on migrant boats/asylum seekers, I could tell them: "Their homelands have been destabilised by war that countries including Russia, the US and allies have meddled in to cause/exacerbate the situation (in particular Russia actually weaponise migration as a geopolitical goal). The way to deal with this crisis is to not interfere militarily where this causes more problems than it solves, and have an exit strategy where it matters. We should also support Ukraine strongly to defeat Russia, allowing the direct safe return of Ukrainian refugees and return of refugees from countries Russia has destabilised (particularly in the Sahel), and crucially, preventing future refugees from even existing." They would respond, "no we should cut foreign aid to look after our own (then dismiss any policy that involves looking after our own) and not waste money on other countries," or something to that tune. This particular issue is so emotion-driven, I think the best way to deal with it is for the government to do whatever solutions have the most compelling evidence, and then shut up until very clear progress has been made towards it. You cannot have a reasonable debate here and the toxic divisions involved are perfect cover for nasty bad actors behind the scenes to fleece the country even more.
 

nw1

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Britain is not an assimilatory society and does not demand that immigrants become British in any meaningful way, because it refuses to even define what Britishness is.
What does "become British" in fact mean though? Learn English? All immigrants I've met have enough English to live effectively here, certainly.
That’s a very selective view of libertarianism. I assume you don’t subscribe to the libertarian view that businesses should have free hand to serve or not serve whoever they like, for example. I mean it’s not even libertarian to put conditions on where one can work or live. Why is it only if you have useful skills
Or if you are a refugee, of course. To be honest my gut "from the heart" reaction would be a complete free-for-all on immigration but I do recognise "from the head" that this would be impractical. Hence my "useful skills" qualifier. I'm trying to argue against blocking people with useful skills - let's say in healthcare, science, engineering or technology - working here just because they are foreigners - this is a considerably more libertarian position than either Labour or the Conservatives adopt, for example.

Going to the extreme you could argue that you're not a true libertarian unless you believe you can murder someone with no consequence!

It also works the other way too. I find that most people who call themselves libertarians are mostly obsessed with the right to bear arms and not pay much in the way of taxes, and are actually anti-immigration.
 

Ant1966

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9 May 2021
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250
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RG
Some of those I would agree with, but not others. In particular I don't agree that large-scale immigration has been bad for Britain. The country was - until the late 2010s - following a path of becoming more tolerant and less racist and xenophobic compared to say 30-40 years previously, and that to me was a good thing. Also as someone with a strong belief in libertarianism I believe that, if you have skills useful to society, you should be able to live and work more or less where you like as long as you are not seen as a national security threat. One thing that infuriates me is "locals" looking down on outsiders, and that applies even in UK-citizen-on-UK-citizen cases.

Thinking about it longer-term, if Western countries pull up the drawbridge and keep skilled immigrants out, it's only going to increase anger and resentment in the Third World and potentially cause yet more global instability, as if there wasn't enough already. That's the last thing we need.

I'm not sure what you mean by "total dismantling of the Establishment", do you mean moving to becoming a republic?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "...opposing racism rather than considering the greater good". Are you implying that opposing racism is incompatible with the greater good? Surely opposing racism (and xenophobia, and prejudice towards particular religions) is a good thing and a high priority - especially when you consider that many or even most of the world's problems are down to conflict between different religions, races and nationalities.
The best book Ive ever read on migration; highly recommended if you want an impartial, fact based look at what seems to have become the defining political subjest of this decade:

Won't try and summarise it in one post! But the biggest takeaway for me is that politicians of all hues have been fundamentally dishonest with the electorate over immigration. There is a massive disconnect between what they SAY (tough talk) and what they DO (allow immigration to continue at reasonably large levels - though interestingly, nothing like as large as historically in Eur or the US, or even currently in other parts of the world). The last Tory Govt was especially dishonest in this regard, the current Labour Govt seems a little better, but not much.

I think its this that people can sense, and of course its all exaggerated by the social media echo chamber. Enter Farage and his bunch of merry grifters. (Probably the least honest of the lot, although perceived as 'telling it like it is')

You may beleive that Immigration is generally a good thing (as, for example, do I) or you may believe its generally a bad thing (as many people do, disproportionately less well off people in more deprived areas who may have seen their local area change in nature and their housing and job prospects worsen)

Both points of view are valid (dimissingly the latter as 'uneducated' or 'racist' wont win any hearts or minds at all) but in neither case is anyone having a honest conversation with the electorate.

IMO
An honest Pro Immigration conversation would talk up the benefits, both cultural but especially financial, of immigration to the UK, accepting that there maybe be downsides (real or perceived) in the shorter term in some parts of the country.
An honest anti immigration debate would explain the impact in terms of us all having to work longer, retire later and pay more for services, social care and health etc.; and how they plan to train/encourage more UK born young people to do the jobs that they currently seem unwilling to do. Also how long this would all take.

At the moment neither of these conversations is happening.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,036
IMO
An honest Pro Immigration conversation would talk up the benefits, both cultural but especially financial, of immigration to the UK, accepting that there maybe be downsides (real or perceived) in the shorter term in some parts of the country.
An honest anti immigration debate would explain the impact in terms of us all having to work longer, retire later and pay more for services, social care and health etc.; and how they plan to train/encourage more UK born young people to do the jobs that they currently seem unwilling to do. Also how long this would all take.

Both sides would do well to play with the variables on this tool:

 

JGurney

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2021
Messages
415
Location
Saltburn / Danby
until ..... supreme court judges and civil servants start listening to voters.
Neither of those roles are elected posts. They are operational specialists. Appeal court judges (the supreme court is an appeal court) are there to apply their expertise to resolving technical questions of law.
If it turns out that the law, once clarified, is not doing what the voters want than it is the business of Parliament to change that law, not of judges to supply a sought-for but inaccurate clarification.
Civil servants are there to implement decisions made by Parliament and ministers acting under their authority: they should be doing what their managers are telling them. It is their mangers who should be aiming to ensure that policy reflects what the voters want.


Do you still wonder why populism won't go away?

Populism vanished in Denmark because they pragmatically listened to people and governed in the nation's best interest decided by and for the people.
I think you have misunderstood what populism is.

Populism starts from the position that there is a single set of views held by the overwhelming majority of the population, and that there is a very small but powerful elite group who are seeking some quite different goals. It presumes a fundamental conflict between a highly united populace and an exploitative and oppressive elite. By far the most enduring and arguably most developed form of populism is Marxism, which presupposes a fundamental conflict between an alleged 'working class' composed of all people who sell their labour and a 'ruling class' who own the means of production. (NB Marxists are using the term 'working class' in a sense quite different to the way it is commonly used: to a Marxist what matters is whether the individual sells their labour, or skill, regardless of how high the price they command might be - a millionaire would still be working class if they made their million through selling a very valuable skill as opposed to by owning land, machinery, buildings, etc).

IMO, the key weaknesses of populism are:

- that it's belief in a unified populace is unrealistic. As recent elections show, there are such a range of political opinions currently in circulation that there are elections where candidates aim to get 35% of the vote while three rivals get around 22% each. If the populists were right we would be seeing candidates getting 85%+ of votes, not seeing 35% as a good outcome.

- that it offers either no solutions, suggesting that anyone who replaces this alleged elite will simply copy them and the system will carry on, or offers very radical revolutionary solutions (e.g. the Marxist view that only the global revolutionary overthrow of the ruling class and the abolition of private property can ever resolve the owner/worker conflict, and that nothing else is of any value).
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,742
You may beleive that Immigration is generally a good thing (as, for example, do I) or you may believe its generally a bad thing (as many people do, disproportionately less well off people in more deprived areas who may have seen their local area change in nature and their housing and job prospects worsen)

Both points of view are valid (dimissingly the latter as 'uneducated' or 'racist' wont win any hearts or minds at all) but in neither case is anyone having a honest conversation with the electorate.

IMO
An honest Pro Immigration conversation would talk up the benefits, both cultural but especially financial, of immigration to the UK, accepting that there maybe be downsides (real or perceived) in the shorter term in some parts of the country.
An honest anti immigration debate would explain the impact in terms of us all having to work longer, retire later and pay more for services, social care and health etc.; and how they plan to train/encourage more UK born young people to do the jobs that they currently seem unwilling to do. Also how long this would all take.

At the moment neither of these conversations is happening.

Superb post. Well said.
 

Bletchleyite

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Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,225
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Superb post. Well said.

Though I would add my view which is the middle line - it's not binary. Specifically, that some immigration is beneficial and other immigration is not.

People coming to the UK to fill jobs that we can't fill ourselves are a good thing, though there is an argument that British business doesn't invest enough in training and development so the amount of that that's sensible might not be the level it is now. I'd also except people coming in to do jobs for poverty wages - this creates an underclass that is likely to end up needing benefits at some point - some of these jobs would be better off automated away. An example of that is hand car washes. We didn't used to have them and I don't consider it overall a benefit to the country that we now do. Though that's also balanced with my observation that Polish and Romanian people in particular have tended to move into what were traditionally rough areas and have caused those areas to improve as they care about where they live.

People coming to the UK to study are a good thing, as they help fund education, as long as they either take jobs noted above or leave once finished.

People who are interested in contributing to and being part of the UK are a good thing.

People who would prefer to live in enclaves and not in any way join UK culture are not a good thing. And yes, I think the same of the north Spanish retiree "gammons" too. If you want to eat egg and chips and drink Carling on the beach move to Blackpool, not Spain, though you might want your big coat.

Is roughly what I think. Unfortunately as with much of my politics there isn't a party that genuinely represents me on this so far as I can tell.

I suppose there is also the issue that you need immigration to keep the Ponzi scheme of the state pension and welfare going. However I think we should actually have a proper conversation about that. I'm not in principle opposed to a retirement age linked to life expectancy backdated to say the 1940s, which probably means it heading towards 75 or so now.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,742
Though I would add my view which is the middle line - it's not binary. Specifically, that some immigration is beneficial and other immigration is not.

People coming to the UK to fill jobs that we can't fill ourselves are a good thing, though there is an argument that British business doesn't invest enough in training and development so the amount of that that's sensible might not be the level it is now. I'd also except people coming in to do jobs for poverty wages - this creates an underclass that is likely to end up needing benefits at some point - some of these jobs would be better off automated away. An example of that is hand car washes. We didn't used to have them and I don't consider it overall a benefit to the country that we now do. Though that's also balanced with my observation that Polish and Romanian people in particular have tended to move into what were traditionally rough areas and have caused those areas to improve as they care about where they live.

People coming to the UK to study are a good thing, as they help fund education, as long as they either take jobs noted above or leave once finished.

People who are interested in contributing to and being part of the UK are a good thing.

People who would prefer to live in enclaves and not in any way join UK culture are not a good thing. And yes, I think the same of the north Spanish retiree "gammons" too.

Is roughly what I think. Unfortunately as with much of my politics there isn't a party that genuinely represents me on this so far as I can tell.

From what you say, I’d argue you are in the same boat* as me - immigration is generally a good thing, but there are of course exceptions. I have no doubt my life would not be as good without the immigration this country has had for the last 70 years. Arguably the last 2,000 (having driven along the course of three Roman roads this evening).

I do laugh like a drain when I hear people saying words to the effect of “this country has gone to the dogs, too much immigration, so when I get the chance I’m leaving to go to Spain / Australia / wherever”

*small boat of course.
 

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