Recycling (bottles etc) discussion

[Yew]

Even when no effort is needed, some people can't be bothered - quite often litter is scattered on the ground within a few feet of a bin.

How do you know that the light plastic bottles haven't simply blown out of the open-topped bins? Such an occurrence was common in the fairs of America and led Walt Disney to specify wind-resistant bins in his Parks.

 

[najaB]

How do you know that the light plastic bottles haven't simply blown out of the open-topped bins? Such an occurrence was common in the fairs of America and led Walt Disney to specify wind-resistant bins in his Parks.

No doubt there's some of that, but I've definitely seen plenty of people just throwing their little in the general direction of the bin.

 

[DelW]

How do you know that the light plastic bottles haven't simply blown out of the open-topped bins? Such an occurrence was common in the fairs of America and led Walt Disney to specify wind-resistant bins in his Parks.

Around here there are few if any open-topped bins, possibly because foxes would raid them. The standard is a square steel box with a top and four rectangular openings about 400mm x 100mm, one near the top of each side. Not all the litter is lightweight either, glass bottles scattered around are common.

 

[Yew]

Now there is a thought. You want a drink well in future bring your own bottle and we will dispense the drink for you !.

And what exactly will be the carbon cost of transporting a bag and reusable bottle around everywhere. Just because such performative actions give some people a sense of smug superiority, doesn't mean they're actually effective.

No doubt there's some of that, but I've definitely seen plenty of people just throwing their little in the general direction of the bin.

That's odd, I don't think I've ever seen such odd behaviour. Maybe placed on the ground nearby if the bin is overflowing, but tossed in the general direction of a bin?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

Around here there are few if any open-topped bins, possibly because foxes would raid them. The standard is a square steel box with a top and four rectangular openings about 400mm x 100mm, one near the top of each side.

Unfortunately this type, is susceptible also to the wind that batters our isle, particularly if overflowing.

 

[najaB]

And what exactly will be the carbon cost of transporting a bag and reusable bottle around everywhere.

A couple hundred grams? Very little.

 

[DelW]

Unfortunately this type, is susceptible also to the wind that batters our isle, particularly if overflowing.

Sorry, I don't think that's the explanation, I've never seen any signs of rubbish being blown out of those bins. I have however seen vehicles parked next to them, whose occupants threw their sandwich wrappers, cardboard coffee cups, etc. out of the windows then drove away. All the bottles and cans that I see (and collect) along verges and country footpaths weren't blown there by the wind either.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And what exactly will be the carbon cost of transporting a bag and reusable bottle around everywhere. Just because such performative actions give some people a sense of smug superiority, doesn't mean they're actually effective.

Given the car and the occupant are going to the shop anyway to buy the drink I doubt taking the necessary empty bottles adds much to the carbon footprint or effort. So its a radical idea but not impossible. Not radical enough to make one smug.

That's odd, I don't think I've ever seen such odd behaviour. Maybe placed on the ground nearby if the bin is overflowing, but tossed in the general direction of a bin?

Most occupants of a car throw their rubbish out of the window, happens all the time at lay-bys.

Unfortunately this type, is susceptible also to the wind that batters our isle, particularly if overflowing.

We don't get wind all that often and I particularly see fellow bus passengers shedding their litter at the bus stop onto the floor even though there is a bin right there.

Sorry that's nonsense, I've never seen any signs of rubbish being blown out of those bins. I have however seen vehicles parked next to them, whose occupants threw their sandwich wrappers, cardboard coffee cups, etc. out of the windows then drove away. All the bottles and cans that I see (and collect) along verges and country footpaths weren't blown there by the wind either.

Sadly people cannot seem to get out of their car to walk to the bin. If they cannot reach the bin they do seem to just drop it nearby.

I have also seen McDonalds wrappars and left overs left in the gutter. Sometimes at night watched it pour out of the car window as I walk by.

 

[DelW]

For those arguing that we don't need a deposit scheme as the present system is adequate, I attach pictures of my haul from this morning's walk. This lot was collected from the verges of a 100m length of country road - I've no reason to think it's any different from the rest of that road, but I only walked along a short length of it to connect between two footpaths. It seems likely that all of it was thrown from moving vehicles - the road is narrow with steep banks either side, there are no lay-bys or anywhere else where one could park even for a few minutes, and the footpaths I walked either side of this stretch were litter-free. In that context it's concerning that so many of the cans were for alcohol, and even more so the vodka bottle. For what it's worth, this is a fairly typical haul, and most has been dropped within the last few weeks, as I did a similar collection on the same road late last year.

I really hope that a workable deposit scheme might reduce this mess, which injures wildlife and wastes resources on a massive scale when replicated across the whole country.



(Pictures showing collected litter as emptied from a carrier bag, and when rinsed and sorted for the relevant bins)

 

[najaB]

For those arguing that we don't need a deposit scheme as the present system is adequate, I attach pictures of my haul from this morning's walk.

Good job there doing something positive for everyone. And, if there was a deposit scheme in place, it might have netted you a few pennies as well.

 

[DelW]

Good job there doing something positive for everyone. And, if there was a deposit scheme in place, it might have netted you a few pennies as well.

Some weeks about 2/3 of my recycling wheelie bin is filled with other peoples' drinks cans and bottles, so even at (say) 10p a time it could be several pounds' worth! I'd be even happier not to find any though.

 

[Yew]

Most occupants of a car throw their rubbish out of the window, happens all the time at lay-bys.

Could you provide some statistics to back up that incredible assertion?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

For those arguing that we don't need a deposit scheme as the present system is adequate

I don't think anyone has actually been suggesting that, so I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from making intellectually dishonest straw man arguments.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

It seems likely that all of it was thrown from moving vehicles - the road is narrow with steep banks either side, there are no lay-bys or anywhere else where one could park even for a few minutes, and the footpaths I walked either side of this stretch were litter-free.

I'd like to point out that we already have laws against littering, if you want to change those, then that's probably off-topic for this thread.

 

[DelW]

I don't think anyone has actually been suggesting that, so I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from making intellectually dishonest straw man arguments.

That's a rather offensive statement.

Your post 10 said:

A deposit scheme that requires me to traipse bottled to some central point to stand in a queue to avoid some financial penalty is, however, unacceptable.

Your post 15 said:

And how exactly does the deposit scheme make this more likely? If anything, it just adds additional inconvenience and cost to the system.

Your post 53 said:

I'm still struggling to understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that you can have reusable bottles without a deposit scheme.

and:

That might be required if returning bottles requires a reasonable investment of effort, but if bottles can be returned easily, then the need for any sort of financial incentive/coercion is removed. Having space on a bin lorry or milk-float style vehicle for crates of bottles to take back for re-use seems a lot simpler than having lots of reverse-vending machines everywhere, or paying shops to accept bottles.

All of which seem to me to be your arguments against a deposit scheme.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

I'd like to point out that we already have laws against littering, if you want to change those, then that's probably off-topic for this thread.

I have no wish to change them, but the reality is that they are unenforced, and in the countryside are unenforceable. So we need a different approach.

 

[najaB]

I have no wish to change them, but the reality is that they are unenforced, and in the countryside are unenforceable. So we need a different approach.

Indeed. A carrot may be more effective than a stick that's never wielded.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Could you provide some statistics to back up that incredible assertion?

Sorry - I cannot provide statistics but are you saying NO occupants of cars throw litter from the windows. My point was that people cannot be bothered to get out of the car to reach the bin.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==


I don't think anyone has actually been suggesting that, so I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from making intellectually dishonest straw man arguments.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==


I'd like to point out that we already have laws against littering, if you want to change those, then that's probably off-topic for this thread.

And what is this your saying ?. I have not found where @DelW mentions the law, infers enforcing it or infers changing the law.

 

[najaB]

Sorry - I cannot provide statistics but are you saying NO occupants of cars throw litter from the windows.

I rather suspect the true figure lies somewhere between "most occupants" and "no occupants".

 

[Bikeman78]

If only there were lorries that came around every neighbourhood already, picking up items for recylcing.

I'm glad you mentioned that. If only the operators of such vehicles were more careful. If something falls on the ground, they rarely pick it up. The recycling system in Cardiff has recently been changed so that it benefits the Council, not the user. Until last year, we had green recycling bags. All recycling went in to them. I had two bins in my kitchen, one for recycling, one for non recyclable. Now I have two large sacks and a plastic container for glass. It looks messy. The sacks blow away if it's windy on bin day. They also get soaking wet if it's raining and I then have to bring them back into my house. There is no guarantee that I will end up with the same ones and some people let them get into a disgusting state.

On the subject of litter, I think that litter picking is another thing that Councils have given up on. Either that or the public have got far worse. I sometimes go out litter picking with a carrier bag. I can fill it within five minutes of leaving home. A week later, I can fill another bag along the same stretch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

You may well be on to something there.

Many people in the UK are too comfortable with their current lives to voluntarily do anything to reduce resource usage.

I can't get my head around the amount of waste people produce. On black bin day, I see lots of bins full to overflowing. I didn't even put mine out this week. It had one bag from the kitchen bin in it. I get that families of four will produce more but if my kids stay over for a week, the volume of rubbish doesn't triple.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

For those arguing that we don't need a deposit scheme as the present system is adequate, I attach pictures of my haul from this morning's walk. This lot was collected from the verges of a 100m length of country road - I've no reason to think it's any different from the rest of that road, but I only walked along a short length of it to connect between two footpaths. It seems likely that all of it was thrown from moving vehicles - the road is narrow with steep banks either side, there are no lay-bys or anywhere else where one could park even for a few minutes, and the footpaths I walked either side of this stretch were litter-free. In that context it's concerning that so many of the cans were for alcohol, and even more so the vodka bottle. For what it's worth, this is a fairly typical haul, and most has been dropped within the last few weeks, as I did a similar collection on the same road late last year.

I really hope that a workable deposit scheme might reduce this mess, which injures wildlife and wastes resources on a massive scale when replicated across the whole country.

View attachment 173638View attachment 173639

(Pictures showing collected litter as emptied from a carrier bag, and when rinsed and sorted for the relevant bins)

I am glad it's not just me that does this. I am always bemused by how many alcohol cans are discarded by the roadside. Hopefully it's not the drivers drinking them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

Sorry - I cannot provide statistics but are you saying NO occupants of cars throw litter from the windows. My point was that people cannot be bothered to get out of the car to reach the bin.

Or even stop the vehicle in many cases.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm glad you mentioned that. If only the operators of such vehicles were more careful. If something falls on the ground, they rarely pick it up. The recycling system in Cardiff has recently been changed so that it benefits the Council, not the user. Until last year, we had green recycling bags. All recycling went in to them. I had two bins in my kitchen, one for recycling, one for non recyclable. Now I have two large sacks and a plastic container for glass. It looks messy. The sacks blow away if it's windy on bin day. They also get soaking wet if it's raining and I then have to bring them back into my house. There is no guarantee that I will end up with the same ones and some people let them get into a disgusting state.

My stepsons live in Cardiff and for the ones in the house the change yuo refer to has been a culture shock. Croydon was always more stricter/complicated and now the boys have stopped telling their Mum things that undermined what I was telling her to do !.

As for those plastic sack/containers you now have. As soon as I saw them I knew what you are saying would happen !. I went out and bought two IKEA stack-able bins that have an opening at one end. The sacks NEVER enter the house and are filled from the IKEA bins.

I know the one bag for all recycling had to end - it was to difficult sorting it later. But why we cannot have ONE standard across the UK I do not know. My clue lidded wheely bin (an oversized monster) is for paper/cardboard - I think that blue is not paper and cardboard in Cardiff so when the boys visit I have to check my blue recycing bin !.

On the subject of litter, I think that litter picking is another thing that Councils have given up on. Either that or the public have got far worse. I sometimes go out litter picking with a carrier bag. I can fill it within five minutes of leaving home. A week later, I can fill another bag along the same stretch.

Cannot comment as Croydon council went bust. You will be amazed how much litter, rubbish and leaves WAS removed and only believe it when they stop all together !

I can't get my head around the amount of waste people produce. On black bin day, I see lots of bins full to overflowing. I didn't even put mine out this week. It had one bag from the kitchen bin in it. I get that families of four will produce more but if my kids stay over for a week, the volume of rubbish doesn't triple.

House near me garden full of rubbish general waste bin overflowing. Used to be little effort to feed the two recycling bins. Now the council will not collect bins where the lid does not close so all three bins are overflowing with general waste. Their hedge was 75% across the road until someone cut it - you get the picture. There will always be some for whom recycling can never be made easy enough.

I am glad it's not just me that does this. I am always bemused by how many alcohol cans are discarded by the roadside. Hopefully it's not the drivers drinking them.

And bewere the can/bottle that is open BUT full of recycled booze.

There are a few park benches near me that produce more cans and bottles than I can carry !.

Or even stop the vehicle in many cases.

I did once see a 5l water bottle come flying out of a moving car.

 

[DelW]

I am glad it's not just me that does this. I am always bemused by how many alcohol cans are discarded by the roadside. Hopefully it's not the drivers drinking them.

I have found some locations where clearing litter over a period has succeeded in reducing the amount being dropped. As an example, on my estate there's a long flight of steps joining two areas at different levels. When I first started using them, there were lots of discarded cans and bottles, mostly of alcohol - local teens used to meet there to drink them as it isn't overlooked. There are litter bins at the top and bottom of the steps, so every time I walked that way, I'd clear the rubbish into the bin as I passed it (or if I was heading home I'd take the recyclables with me). Over a period the amount has reduced a lot, and though some still gets dropped, it's rarely more than a handful of items a week.

Unfortunately the same doesn't seem to work for areas where the rubbish is mostly being thrown from vehicles, whose occupants seem incapable of being shamed.

And bewere the can/bottle that is open BUT full of recycled booze.

That can be a hazard. The other one I encounter is cans which weren't emptied - wildlife like slugs crawl in, attracted by the remaining drink, then either drown or can't get back out. The result is a vile brown sludge which needs careful emptying.

 

[Bikeman78]

My stepsons live in Cardiff and for the ones in the house the change yuo refer to has been a culture shock. Croydon was always more stricter/complicated and now the boys have stopped telling their Mum things that undermined what I was telling her to do !.

As for those plastic sack/containers you now have. As soon as I saw them I knew what you are saying would happen !. I went out and bought two IKEA stack-able bins that have an opening at one end. The sacks NEVER enter the house and are filled from the IKEA bins.

I know the one bag for all recycling had to end - it was to difficult sorting it later. But why we cannot have ONE standard across the UK I do not know. My clue lidded wheely bin (an oversized monster) is for paper/cardboard - I think that blue is not paper and cardboard in Cardiff so when the boys visit I have to check my blue recycing bin !.

The problem with the sacks is really obvious. So why couldn't the Council foresee it? I suspect that they simply don't care as it's not their problem. The problem is that if you make recycling too difficult for the user, they won't bother. Thinking about it, that possibly explains the overflowing black bins. As mentioned above, I don't produce much rubbish so I could easily fling everything into the black bin and be done with it. I looked up how to get replacement recycling sacks. They don't deliver them. I have to go and get them. They do appear to be free which is a positive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

And bewere the can/bottle that is open BUT full of recycled booze.

I'm not overly bothered. I wear gloves and pour any liquids out onto the verge or road.

 

[philthetube]

And what exactly will be the carbon cost of transporting a bag and reusable bottle around everywhere. Just because such performative actions give some people a sense of smug superiority, doesn't mean they're actually effective.

Compared with how much carbon is created in melting down a lorry load of glass or making new glass , not a lot.

I actually think they should go one stage further and standardise bottles and jars, different sizes and colours of glass available set up distribution, washing hubs around the country, retailers sell empties to these hubs and manufacturers buy from them. Products identified by labels, which would be washed off anyway.

Manufacturers using cans should also be encouraged to use reusable glass instead.

 

[Hadlow Road]

Some weeks about 2/3 of my recycling wheelie bin is filled with other peoples' drinks cans and bottles, so even at (say) 10p a time it could be several pounds' worth! I'd be even happier not to find any though.

Our lane connects two village estates and I continue to collect rubbish but am now cleaning, flattening and storing tins (or whatever the correct noun for an aluminium can might be) pending delivery to our local scrap dealer. I can report back how profitable that might be. But the place always looks better afterwards - I have to walk down it and see no reason to walk amongst rubbish. Bottles and plastic go in the appropriate weekly recycling box.

One thing does puzzle me and that is the weird effect of energy drinks, which appear to render the drinkers too weak to carry them with them.

But it is the local people (neighbours!) so keen to dump rubbish and empty their dogs all over the place. Mind you, we have not had a dead dog dumped down the road for quite a while now. Hmm, must start a thread on dog licensing.

And I’m with DelW in preferring not to have all the muck.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Our lane connects two village estates and I continue to collect rubbish but am now cleaning, flattening and storing tins (or whatever the correct noun for an aluminium can might be) pending delivery to our local scrap dealer. I can report back how profitable that might be. But the place always looks better afterwards - I have to walk down it and see no reason to walk amongst rubbish. Bottles and plastic go in the appropriate weekly recycling box.

One thing does puzzle me and that is the weird effect of energy drinks, which appear to render the drinkers too weak to carry them with them.

But it is the local people (neighbours!) so keen to dump rubbish and empty their dogs all over the place. Mind you, we have not had a dead dog dumped down the road for quite a while now. Hmm, must start a thread on dog licensing.

And I’m with DelW in preferring not to have all the muck.

Speaking of mucky waste in otherwise recyclable containers. I know someone who carefully collected a decent sized dog poo from the pavement. He recognised the offending dog and placed the poo on the relevant households' door step. We had worked out between us that the owner let the dog out and it would run round the block only pausing to have a poo. So it only seemed fair to give it back to them.

 

[edwin_m]

But why we cannot have ONE standard across the UK I do not know.

I think it's at least partly to do with the differences between the facilities that process them. When we moved from Nottingham City to the county 20 years ago we went from one bin for everything to a three-bin system which was probably one of the best in the country at the time (they certainly boasted, and boasted about, one of the best recycling rates). It has hardly changed since and I think most other places have overtaken it. There are many things that can't be recycled despite being marked (and probably widely considered) recyclable and the guidance they put on the back of the annual bin collection calendar is pretty sketchy. So I suspect a lot of what they do collect is "contaminated" by items they can't process. They have just started an online "Recyclopedia" which will give advice for specific things, but I just tried a few at random and it probably needs to cover many more to be useful.

 

[Bald Rick]

Late to the party here…

arg! why cant we have one recycling standard for al councils in the UK - it is easy, just copy the fantastic scheme we have in MK.

It’s coming, next year. It seems to be the same system we have in St Albans, which has consistently delivered 60% recycling for 5 years or more.

Link to Govt policy (too much to quote):

Simpler Recycling in England: policy update

www.gov.uk

Harvey's Brewery in Lewes, East Sussex operate a deposit scheme on their beer bottles. I took 15 empty bottles back to their shop just before Christmas and got £1.50 off my purchase from them that day.

The trouble with this scheme is that it means you have to drink Harvey’s products. (I realsie this is likely to be a minority opinion!)

 

[Yew]

That's a rather offensive statement.

You have been consistently been discussing a false dichotomy, your exact words were "For those arguing that we don't need a deposit scheme as the present system is adequate", in which you try to present these as the only two positions; which is obviously untrue as there are a myriad of options available.

Sorry - I cannot provide statistics but are you saying NO occupants of cars throw litter from the windows. My point was that people cannot be bothered to get out of the car to reach the bin.

I did not make such an assertion, however you explicitly said "Most occupants of a car throw their rubbish out of the window", i.e. that over 50% of people in cars throw rubbish out the window. Can you imagine what the M25 would look like is that was true?

Compared with how much carbon is created in melting down a lorry load of glass or making new glass , not a lot.

Yes, but you can re-use bottles without having a deposit scheme, the two are not fundamentally intertwined. A simple scheme where each household is given a plastic bottle crate, and when it's full you put it out, and it goes on either a van, or a modified bin lorry. As bin lorry fleets are renewed, then those changes can happen naturally due to vehicles being replaced. That doesn't need massive agreements with supermarkets and shops (who no doubt will want some administration fees for running the scheme), not large fleets of reverse-vending machines (and the associated government IT infrastructure) to handle the bottles.

I actually think they should go one stage further and standardise bottles and jars, different sizes and colours of glass available set up distribution, washing hubs around the country, retailers sell empties to these hubs and manufacturers buy from them. Products identified by labels, which would be washed off anyway.

I'd certainly support trials into that.

Indeed. A carrot may be more effective than a stick that's never wielded.

I think that's where we disagree, I don't think a deposit scheme is a carrot at all, it's the equivalent of someone saying "the carrot is that I won't hit you with the stick".

 

[Peter Sarf]

..................................

I did not make such an assertion, however you explicitly said "Most occupants of a car throw their rubbish out of the window", i.e. that over 50% of people in cars throw rubbish out the window. Can you imagine what the M25 would look like is that was true?

..................................

Sorry, I realise context maybe getting lost.

I was talking about at at lay-bys and people not bothering to get out and place the rubbish in the bin.
There will be plenty of people not stopping at lay-bys and then of those actually stopping at lay-bys many will not have rubbish they wish to dispose of there and then (me included - it goes home for a bit of recycling).

Here is my full comment :-

..............................

Most occupants of a car throw their rubbish out of the window, happens all the time at lay-bys.

..............................

 

[najaB]

I think that's where we disagree, I don't think a deposit scheme is a carrot at all, it's the equivalent of someone saying "the carrot is that I won't hit you with the stick".

How can "Bring this back and we'll give you 10p." be anything other than a carrot? It's the literal definition of a carrot: a monetary reward for an action you want to encourage.

 

[Tester]

How can "Bring this back and we'll give you 10p." be anything other than a carrot? It's the literal definition of a carrot: a monetary reward for an action you want to encourage.

Because it's 10p you have been required to pay over and above the cost of the product.

We'll hit you with the stick, then give you a way of being unhit.

Not a carrot!

 

[GusB]

Because it's 10p you have been required to pay over and above the cost of the product.

We'll hit you with the stick, then give you a way of being unhit.

Not a carrot!

Or you could think of that 10p as part of the packaging cost, but you get some of it back if you correctly dispose of that packaging.

 

[The exile]

Good job there doing something positive for everyone. And, if there was a deposit scheme in place, it might have netted you a few pennies as well.

Indeed - a deposit scheme not only provides an incentive for the original purchaser not to throw the bottle away (whether in a bin or into the hedge) but also incentivises other people to litter-pick!