Recycling (bottles etc) discussion

[DelW]

Moderator note - split from:

Supermarkets discussion

As a breakaway discussion from the Companies you expect to disappear soon thread and the Shops selling at prices ending in 99p thread we thought it might be useful to have a separate discussion just on supermarkets. They’re something that we pretty much all use and it could be useful hearing...

www.railforums.co.uk

And let us hope it never comes, as it will likely be simplistic, behavioural, and stifle real technological solutions.

Well, the carrier bag charge (which prompted this part of the discussion) seems to have been quite effective. Not perfect but much better.

We could look at how other countries have managed to reduce single-use plastic packaging, and see if their measures could work here. Continuing to cover our countryside and towns with drifts of discarded bottles and cans doesn't seem like a great alternative.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well, the carrier bag charge (which prompted this part of the discussion) seems to have been quite effective. Not perfect but much better.

We could look at how other countries have managed to reduce single-use plastic packaging, and see if their measures could work here. Continuing to cover our countryside and towns with drifts of discarded bottles and cans doesn't seem like a great alternative.

I can remember the flimsy single use bags ending up in trees and bushes !.

I wonder if a deposit scheme for containers might help them to end up somewhere less polluting !. I wonder how effective the deposit on glass pop bottles was ?. I can certainly remember kids rescuing the odd abandoned one for a bit of sweet money.

 

[Harpo]

wonder how effective the deposit on glass pop bottles was ?. I can certainly remember kids rescuing the odd abandoned one for a bit of sweet money.

I was one. 3d wasn’t it for handing in Tizer, R Whites and other bottles at the offie?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was one. 3d wasn’t it for handing in Tizer, R Whites and other bottles at the offie?

Rings a bell and 3d was a decent amount for a kid back then. I bought a Corgi/Dinki tractor with the proceeds collected over a year.

I wonder what percentage of the full purchase price 3d was. That could give an indication of what deposit would work nowadays.

Yes - "its the Tizer supp-riser" rings a bell !.

 

[AM9]

I can remember the flimsy single use bags ending up in trees and bushes !.

I wonder if a deposit scheme for containers might help them to end up somewhere less polluting !. I wonder how effective the deposit on glass pop bottles was ?. I can certainly remember kids rescuing the odd abandoned one for a bit of sweet money.

Maybe a levy on single use containers, - that would prompt a rapid technological response from the retailers.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Maybe a levy on single use containers, - that would prompt a rapid technological response from the retailers.

Yes ideally the deposit (levy) would lead to re-usable containers.

Glass bottles and jars - no need to melt them down as they can be washed and re-used. Only surviving example of that is milk bottles.

 

[Harpo]

Glass bottles and jars - no need to melt them down as they can be washed and re-used. Only surviving example of that is milk bottles.

If only reusable & environmentally friendly milk bottles could be delivered and collected by environmentally friendly rechargeable battery electric vehicles. Oh! Hang on………

 

[JamesT]

If only reusable & environmentally friendly milk bottles could be delivered and collected by environmentally friendly rechargeable battery electric vehicles. Oh! Hang on………

An expensive distribution method for a minor portion of your groceries, delivered inconveniently and at risk of theft. Strange that it went out of fashion...

 

[Peter Sarf]

An expensive distribution method for a minor portion of your groceries, delivered inconveniently and at risk of theft. Strange that it went out of fashion...

I have been trying to remember if we used to buy milk in glass bottles from the supermarkets ?.

My problem with delivered milk is it started arriving well after i had left for work in the morning so was sweating on the door step in summer.

Nowadays the milk delivery firms deliver all sorts of groceries as well but its probably best left to the supermarket delivery firms.

 

[Yew]

I can remember the flimsy single use bags ending up in trees and bushes !.

I wonder if a deposit scheme for containers might help them to end up somewhere less polluting !. I wonder how effective the deposit on glass pop bottles was ?. I can certainly remember kids rescuing the odd abandoned one for a bit of sweet money.

I have no problem with bottle re-use schemes, and would fully support them if the re-use is straightforward and easy, such as bottles being collected from boxes at home, as per current home recycling. A deposit scheme that requires me to traipse bottled to some central point to stand in a queue to avoid some financial penalty is, however, unacceptable.

Let us focus on real, effective measures that improve the human experience, rather than engaging in performative self-sacrifice that is too often the solution proposed by many environmentalists.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

Maybe a levy on single use containers, - that would prompt a rapid technological response from the retailers.

Just like the break-neck technological innovation that we've seen with supermarket carrier bags?

 

[AM9]

I have no problem with bottle re-use schemes, and would fully support them if the re-use is straightforward and easy, such as bottles being collected from boxes at home, as per current home recycling. A deposit scheme that requires me to traipse bottled to some central point to stand in a queue to avoid some financial penalty is, however, unacceptable.

Let us focus on real, effective measures that improve the human experience, rather than engaging in performative self-sacrifice that is too often the solution proposed by many environmentalists.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==


Just like the break-neck technological innovation that we've seen with supermarket carrier bags?

The carrier bag innovation has worked everywhere, and bottle deposits also work elsewhere. Innovatios don't need to be high tech (and involving yet more pollution/CO2 to boot) to work.

 

[jon81uk]

I have no problem with bottle re-use schemes, and would fully support them if the re-use is straightforward and easy, such as bottles being collected from boxes at home, as per current home recycling. A deposit scheme that requires me to traipse bottled to some central point to stand in a queue to avoid some financial penalty is, however, unacceptable.

Yet the bottle return deposit system is normal in a lot of Europe and people in many European countries have returned bottles back to shops for 30+ years.

 

[takno]

Yet the bottle return deposit system is normal in a lot of Europe and people in many European countries have returned bottles back to shops for 30+ years.

Lots of things that they do in various European countries are just bad ideas, or are either unworkable or culturally unacceptable in other European countries. It's not like it's every other European country, and from the ones I've been in its made very little difference to the litter.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have no problem with bottle re-use schemes, and would fully support them if the re-use is straightforward and easy, such as bottles being collected from boxes at home, as per current home recycling. A deposit scheme that requires me to traipse bottled to some central point to stand in a queue to avoid some financial penalty is, however, unacceptable.

Let us focus on real, effective measures that improve the human experience, rather than engaging in performative self-sacrifice that is too often the solution proposed by many environmentalists.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==


Just like the break-neck technological innovation that we've seen with supermarket carrier bags?

I would organise it so the bottles/containers can be returned back to any shop that sells the product in the container in question. That would most likely be where you are going anyway at your next shop. From the shop the bottles/containers would go back to the factory where the bottle was last filled. That is how it worked from what I saw back in the 1970s.

Although there was also a regular delivery lorry in my area for soft drinks that used to pick up the empties at the same time they made deliveries - just like milk bottles are still handled. That would mean the various delivery companies for the supermarkets taking back empties.

In both above cases the transport will be going back to the supplier largely empty anyway because they have to pick up more of the product.

 

[Yew]

The carrier bag innovation has worked everywhere, and bottle deposits also work elsewhere. Innovatios don't need to be high tech (and involving yet more pollution/CO2 to boot) to work.

Could you describe exactly which technological innovations have arisen from the bag tax?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

I would organise it so the bottles/containers can be returned back to any shop that sells the product in the container in question. That would most likely be where you are going anyway at your next shop. From the shop the bottles/containers would go back to the factory where the bottle was last filled. That is how it worked from what I saw back in the 1970s.

And how exactly does the deposit scheme make this more likely? If anything, it just adds additional inconvenience and cost to the system.

Ultimately, the argument of "We did this half a century ago" doesn't really have much weight. Supermarkets also used to manually key in prices, perhaps we should bring that back to reduce the amount of electrical waste, or start filling schools with Asbestos again?

Although there was also a regular delivery lorry in my area for soft drinks that used to pick up the empties at the same time they made deliveries - just like milk bottles are still handled. That would mean the various delivery companies for the supermarkets taking back empties.

If only there were lorries that came around every neighbourhood already, picking up items for recylcing.

In both above cases the transport will be going back to the supplier largely empty anyway because they have to pick up more of the product.

A fact that is true regardless of whether the bottle being returned has a deposit or not.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Could you describe exactly which technological innovations have arisen from the bag tax?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==


And how exactly does the deposit scheme make this more likely? If anything, it just adds additional inconvenience and cost to the system.

Ultimately, the argument of "We did this half a century ago" doesn't really have much weight. Supermarkets also used to manually key in prices, perhaps we should bring that back to reduce the amount of electrical waste, or start filling schools with Asbestos again?

Nobody said ecology was convenient and free. But the consequences of screwing up the planet also result in inconvenience and cost, maybe not initially but its coming home to roost eventually. Prevention is boring.

If only there were lorries that came around every neighbourhood already, picking up items for recylcing.

Trouble with those is everything is just thrown in the back willy-nilly and the glass gets all smashed up.

A fact that is true regardless of whether the bottle being returned has a deposit or not.

So might as well keep the glass intact as I believe the cost of washing a bottle is far less than melting it down to make a new bottle.

I should add that back in the 70s loaded bottles arrived at the shop in crates. Those same crates took the right empty bottles back to the right supplier. Those crates went back to the correct supplier regardless of whether they had empty bottle in.

 

[gswindale]

If only there were lorries that came around every neighbourhood already, picking up items for recylcing.

Are there? Our glass bottles sit in a box in the garage for months on end as the council doesn't believe in recycling glass. Maybe an enterprising company could set up a bottle purchasing scheme to come round and collect them?

 

[Yew]

Are there? Our glass bottles sit in a box in the garage for months on end as the council doesn't believe in recycling glass. Maybe an enterprising company could set up a bottle purchasing scheme to come round and collect them?

I don't believe that I said that all councils recycle glass, however all councils do have bin lorries. Adding some bottle-reuse space, or EVs to pick up crates of bottles for reuse would not be unreasonable.

 

[SuspectUsual]

In both above cases the transport will be going back to the supplier largely empty anyway because they have to pick up more of the product.

A fact that is true regardless of whether the bottle being returned has a deposit or not.

You’re making the assumption that the transport bringing full bottles from the supplier works only for that supplier, which isn’t always the case. More and more transport is shared use these days

Could you describe exactly which technological innovations have arisen from the bag tax?

The Coop probably wouldn’t have developed the compostable green carrier bags without the bag tax

 

[takno]

Are there? Our glass bottles sit in a box in the garage for months on end as the council doesn't believe in recycling glass. Maybe an enterprising company could set up a bottle purchasing scheme to come round and collect them?

Not very much glass is recycled. Even when there are bins, most of it just gets crushed for aggregate. Even when it was returned for reuse in pop and milk bottles, the rate of reuse wasn't very high.

Why would it be enterprising to come round and collect unburnable landfill waste from you?

 

[Peter Sarf]

You’re making the assumption that the transport bringing full bottles from the supplier works only for that supplier, which isn’t always the case. More and more transport is shared use these days
...........

The transport might have other things to do but I believe there is an imbalance of products from suppliers and the same form of transport finding its way back to the supplier empty. The only possible similar volume in a similar transport going TO the supplier currently would be the lorry bringing the empty glass bottles. That lorry could be coming from the glass works or somewhere where the second hand bottles are cleaned.

Where supermarkets (and all other drinks shops) come in is handling the return of empty bottles to the supermarket and putting in the correct crates. It is a faff but its better than screwing the planet. Of course AI could probably sort the bottles at the cleaning plant - we might even have closer standards on bottle size and shape which would make life easier at the supermarket/shop.

Not very much glass is recycled. Even when there are bins, most of it just gets crushed for aggregate. Even when it was returned for reuse in pop and milk bottles, the rate of reuse wasn't very high.

Why would it be enterprising to come round and collect unburnable landfill waste from you?

The deposit scheme did at least keep the streets clean. Mind you the number of glass bottles hiding in the long grass waiting to be cut might have more to do with what I suspect is a drastic increase in consumption of drinks.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The transport might have other things to do but I believe there is an imbalance of products from suppliers and the same form of transport finding its way back to the supplier empty. The only possible similar volume in a similar transport going TO the supplier currently would be the lorry bringing the empty glass bottles. That lorry could be coming from the glass works or somewhere where the second hand bottles are cleaned.

It isn’t that simple, a vehicle delivers from supplier A’s factory to retailer B’s warehouse. Company C is based on the same industrial estate as the warehouse and has a load for company D, who are just round the corner from supplier A.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I look at it this way. Most of the stuff being delivered to the supermarket/shop is leaving the supermarket in cars or shopping bags. So if the containers/bottles are returned to the store there is plenty of capacity to tsake those awy.

Now. Obviously those lorries might not go back to the supplier/regional warehouse where they came from BUT they are running empty to somewhere. I would suggest that a regional washing centre positioned near other sites that lorries go to would keep extra lorry movements to a minimum.

In the case of Morrisons the delivery lorries are Morrisons own so inevitably go back empty (except for cages) to the regional warehouse. At the Regional warehouse I wonder if it is the drinks supplier who delivers - so running empty back to the factory.

 

[DM352]

In many Canadian provinces, it is normal to pay a deposit fee at the checkout. example

Starts at 10c and goes to 25c for 1l and above. We go to bottle banks periodically which are more automated sorting now and less aromatic.There are also pickup companies who make a cut or donate to a charity.

If we throw refundable in the blue cart, the council gets the money.

One thing do notice now is at the checkout there are extra environmental fees added which are not refundable for now being a few cents.

 

[Crossover]

I was one. 3d wasn’t it for handing in Tizer, R Whites and other bottles at the offie?

I think Ben Shaw was another? I remember us occasionally getting some from the local newsagent and than taking them back a few days later

In many Canadian provinces, it is normal to pay a deposit fee at the checkout. example

Starts at 10c and goes to 25c for 1l and above. We go to bottle banks periodically which are more automated sorting now and less aromatic.There are also pickup companies who make a cut or donate to a charity.

If we throw refundable in the blue cart, the council gets the money.

One thing do notice now is at the checkout there are extra environmental fees added which are not refundable for now being a few cents.

A bit like the pfand system in Germany?

 

[GusB]

Rings a bell and 3d was a decent amount for a kid back then. I bought a Corgi/Dinki tractor with the proceeds collected over a year.

I wonder what percentage of the full purchase price 3d was. That could give an indication of what deposit would work nowadays.

Yes - "its the Tizer supp-riser" rings a bell !.

The last time I regularly bought fizzy drinks in glass bottles, the deposit was 20p, and I think the purchase price was around the £1 mark (perhaps a bit less) - that would have been early 2000s.

I found this 2015 article from The Grocery, concerning AG Barr's withdrawal of the scheme:

Irn Bru glass bottle return service ended by AG Barr

The popular 750ml glass bottle line including brands Irn Bru, Cream Soda and Cola will all still be available

www.thegrocer.co.uk

AG Barr has announced the end of its 30p glass bottle return after more than 100 years.

From 31 December, retailers will no longer be able to accept the used bottles returned by shoppers in exchange for 30p.

The Scottish soft drinks business has spent £5m on new high speed filling machinery for the glass range and has decommissioned the glass bottle washing infrastructure in its Cumbernauld facility.

The popular 750ml glass bottle line including brands Irn Bru, Cream Soda and Cola will all still be available.

Barr has maintained that the change in the return system will not affect the product price and they will continue to offer retailers the £1 price marked packs.

To help communicate the change to consumers Barr will fully brief retailers and make changes to the bottle labels and in-store point of sale materials in October.

“From the beginning of October information on the change will be carried on the bottle label and we will work with retailers to display materials in their premises to ensure our consumers understand what is planned,” said commercial director of Barr Jonathan Kemp.

The business reported that only half of the sold bottles were being returned back to stores compared to the 90% return rate in the early 90s.

The reference to "£1 price marked packs" suggests that the normal retail price was higher, but 30p on a £1 purchase is quite a significant percentage.

It doesn't seem like nearly 10 years since the scheme ended, but it was always handy to have a few bottles saved up for those few skint days before pay day!

It's also interesting to note that the return rate had dropped from 90% to 50%. This could be because people were simply putting the bottles out with their recycling without realising that they had a value. Another reason could be the loss of traditional corner shops and newsagents, which is where I used to buy them; it's more hassle to lug half a dozen empties if you've got further to go to return them.

When I worked in bars, certain beers had deposit bottles, Newcastle Brown Alexander and Holsten Pils being two that I recall, as well as the Schweppes mixers; woe betide anyone who threw those bottles in the regular bins! I believe all those schemes have now ceased.

 

[Belperpete]

When I lived in Sweden, we took our bottles back to the supermarket, where we put them in a kind of reverse vending machine. Once you had finished putting the bottles in, you got a voucher that you used as part payment for whatever you were buying. It all seemed to work very smoothly. I am sure that I have seen similar elsewhere.

 

[dangie]

I can remember the flimsy single use bags ending up in trees and bushes !.…

Now the trees & bushes are full of discarded plastic dog poo bags

 

[Peter Sarf]

The last time I regularly bought fizzy drinks in glass bottles, the deposit was 20p, and I think the purchase price was around the £1 mark (perhaps a bit less) - that would have been early 2000s.

I found this 2015 article from The Grocery, concerning AG Barr's withdrawal of the scheme:

Irn Bru glass bottle return service ended by AG Barr

The popular 750ml glass bottle line including brands Irn Bru, Cream Soda and Cola will all still be available

www.thegrocer.co.uk

The reference to "£1 price marked packs" suggests that the normal retail price was higher, but 30p on a £1 purchase is quite a significant percentage.

It doesn't seem like nearly 10 years since the scheme ended, but it was always handy to have a few bottles saved up for those few skint days before pay day!

It's also interesting to note that the return rate had dropped from 90% to 50%. This could be because people were simply putting the bottles out with their recycling without realising that they had a value. Another reason could be the loss of traditional corner shops and newsagents, which is where I used to buy them; it's more hassle to lug half a dozen empties if you've got further to go to return them.

When I worked in bars, certain beers had deposit bottles, Newcastle Brown Alexander and Holsten Pils being two that I recall, as well as the Schweppes mixers; woe betide anyone who threw those bottles in the regular bins! I believe all those schemes have now ceased.

I was surprised there was still a scheme in 2016. I would have hoped that the green agenda would have made it continue by then. Disheartening to see the usage dropping from 90% in the 1990s to 50% in 2016. It just shows how we have progressed into a throw away society and cannot be bothered.

I suspect some of the problem is that no other firm was doing a deposit scheme so people were less used to the concept - the habit fizzled out. Also I wonder if the younger generation(s) see no need to save money the way we did ?.

When I lived in Sweden, we took our bottles back to the supermarket, where we put them in a kind of reverse vending machine. Once you had finished putting the bottles in, you got a voucher that you used as part payment for whatever you were buying. It all seemed to work very smoothly. I am sure that I have seen similar elsewhere.

I have seen machines that take back random plastic bottles. Not a deposit scheme as such as the bottles were not re-used directly but gave a little back to the customer.

Now the trees & bushes are full of discarded plastic dog poo bags

Well, I have seen a dog poo bag hanging within reach in the branches. I wonder what the person "responsible" for the dog was thinking.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have been trying to remember if we used to buy milk in glass bottles from the supermarkets ?.

My problem with delivered milk is it started arriving well after i had left for work in the morning so was sweating on the door step in summer.

That was why I bought (and still buy) sterilised milk from the milk delivery people. It also had the advantage that birds could not peck through the bottle caps, although I appreciate that some people may not like to drink sterilised milk.