Recycling (bottles etc) discussion

[dcbwhaley]

That was why I bought (and still buy) sterilised milk from the milk delivery people. It also had the advantage that birds could not peck through the bottle caps, although I appreciate that some people may not like to drink sterilised milk.

Ruins a good cup of tea

 

[najaB]

Not very much glass is recycled. Even when there are bins, most of it just gets crushed for aggregate. Even when it was returned for reuse in pop and milk bottles, the rate of reuse wasn't very high.

That isn't universally the case. I have been to the local brewery and seen the bottles being washed and reused.

A big part of encouraging resuse is the fact that returning a crate of empty bottles means the full crate is $6 cheaper.

 

[Oxfordblues]

When I lived in Sweden, we took our bottles back to the supermarket, where we put them in a kind of reverse vending machine. Once you had finished putting the bottles in, you got a voucher that you used as part payment for whatever you were buying. It all seemed to work very smoothly. I am sure that I have seen similar elsewhere.

One of the innumerable broken promises by the Tory government ("I'm going to stop the boats" etc) was one to instal reverse-vending machines in shops and supermarkets to encourage recycling. It never happened of course.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That isn't universally the case. I have been to the local brewery and seen the bottles being washed and reused.

A big part of encouraging resuse is the fact that returning a crate of empty bottles means the full crate is $6 cheaper.

Indeed in Laos, the last time I got money back on a deposit, it was a whole crate of bottles and I think about 15% off the purchase price back for the glass and a further 10% for the crate. When I bought the beer the shopkeeper was struggling to explain it all to me (lets just say my Laotian was better than his English !). Because I remember such things in the UK from ages ago my memory came up with a theory. I explained it a bit in French with the prices in Laotian. He seemed to think I understood anyway and days later I came back with the empties. The beer was peanuts anyway.

I do wonder if deposit schemes work better in countries where people have less money to waste. In the UK we just do not seem to care because its only money. That is where legislation and heavy deposits would help.

 

[takno]

One of the innumerable broken promises by the Tory government ("I'm going to stop the boats" etc) was one to instal reverse-vending machines in shops and supermarkets to encourage recycling. It never happened of course.

They've also failed to appear in Scotland FWIW. One of the promises I'm quite glad to see broken

 

[najaB]

I do wonder if deposit schemes work better in countries where people have less money to waste. In the UK we just do not seem to care because its only money. That is where legislation and heavy deposits would help.

You may well be on to something there.

Many people in the UK are too comfortable with their current lives to voluntarily do anything to reduce resource usage.

Meanwhile, as a county, we exceed our fair share of global resources by about mid-May of each year and spend the next seven months 'stealing' from less-developed countries.

 

[The exile]

That could give an indication of what deposit would work nowadays.

8 / 15 / 25 cents seems to work in Germany - but if we were starting now, I would suggest 50p. No doubt there would be howls of protest about penalising people on low incomes - which would just show up all those who do not understand how a "deposit" works - or are too lazy to work with the system. Clearly there are some for whom something which is currently affordable no longer would be if they had to pay 50p extra for it once only , but that must be a very small group indeed. You've got to set it on the high side at the start to make it inflation-resistant as changing the value of a deposit is not easy or cheap (though modern tech probably makes it easier).

 

[oldman]

One of the innumerable broken promises by the Tory government ("I'm going to stop the boats" etc) was one to instal reverse-vending machines in shops and supermarkets to encourage recycling. It never happened of course.

A deposit return scheme for plastic drinks bottles and cans is due to begin in October 2027. The regulations are to be debated this week and it will be interesting to see if the Tories who started the ball rolling will still support it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

8 / 15 / 25 cents seems to work in Germany - but if we were starting now, I would suggest 50p. No doubt there would be howls of protest about penalising people on low incomes - which would just show up all those who do not understand how a "deposit" works - or are too lazy to work with the system. Clearly there are some for whom something which is currently affordable no longer would be if they had to pay 50p extra for it once only , but that must be a very small group indeed. You've got to set it on the high side at the start to make it inflation-resistant as changing the value of a deposit is not easy or cheap (though modern tech probably makes it easier).

Oh yes there are those who cannot afford things but cannot be bothered to be careful with money. I have experienced people where their outgoings were greater than their income (When I helped at a credit union). Often suggesting they ditch their circa £100 per month TV package for a one off carge for a £30 free box was met with shock - how can I manage without. Well I did very very easily. I have worked out that having spare time to do nothing in can be very expensive !. Those are the sort of people who will believe the newspaper headline - "50p hike in the price of you coke". As you say - you get the 50p back if you really can be bothered.

The acid test, sadly, will be if the party in power thinks it will cost them, or gain them, votes.

 

[eyebrook1961]

That was why I bought (and still buy) sterilised milk from the milk delivery people. It also had the advantage that birds could not peck through the bottle caps, although I appreciate that some people may not like to drink sterilised milk.

Or "paralysed" milk as my dear grandma used to call it . . . .

 

[DarloRich]

Let us focus on real, effective measures that improve the human experience, rather than engaging in performative self-sacrifice that is too often the solution proposed by many environmentalists.

Exactly - just put a slight tax on the bottles and use the money to develop innovate products and uses for recycled plastics.

Trouble with those is everything is just thrown in the back willy-nilly and the glass gets all smashed up.

the bottles seem to get quite smashed up at the bottle bank - one of life's great pleasures is lobbing glasses into the glass collection tanks and hearing them all breaking................

Are there? Our glass bottles sit in a box in the garage for months on end as the council doesn't believe in recycling glass. Maybe an enterprising company could set up a bottle purchasing scheme to come round and collect them?

arg! why cant we have one recycling standard for al councils in the UK - it is easy, just copy the fantastic scheme we have in MK.

This kind of thing drives me mad!

When I lived in Sweden, we took our bottles back to the supermarket, where we put them in a kind of reverse vending machine. Once you had finished putting the bottles in, you got a voucher that you used as part payment for whatever you were buying. It all seemed to work very smoothly. I am sure that I have seen similar elsewhere.

i have no way of getting the bottles to the shop - I don't have a car

I do wonder if deposit schemes work better in countries where people have less money to waste. In the UK we just do not seem to care because its only money.

They have less money than us in Holland, Sweden or Germany?

 

[najaB]

i have no way of getting the bottles to the shop - I don't have a car

Yet somehow you got the bottles from the shop...

 

[DarloRich]

Yet somehow you got the bottles from the shop...

Amazon ( from Morrsions)/Tesco/Asda brought them - the council wagon takes them away for me

 

[najaB]

Amazon ( from Morrsions)/Tesco/Asda brought them - the council wagon takes them away for me

So, simple solution - require Amazon/Tesco/Asda to take them back.

 

[DarloRich]

So, simple solution - require Amazon/Tesco/Asda to take them back.

cool with that

 

[Jon_jpwh]

Harvey's Brewery in Lewes, East Sussex operate a deposit scheme on their beer bottles. I took 15 empty bottles back to their shop just before Christmas and got £1.50 off my purchase from them that day.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Harvey's Brewery in Lewes, East Sussex operate a deposit scheme on their beer bottles. I took 15 empty bottles back to their shop just before Christmas and got £1.50 off my purchase from them that day.

Hurrah. So Deposits are still alive and kicking. I suspect it works best for local breweries in their local area but it is a start.

 

[PeterC]

I have been trying to remember if we used to buy milk in glass bottles from the supermarkets ?.

My problem with delivered milk is it started arriving well after i had left for work in the morning so was sweating on the door step in summer.

Nowadays the milk delivery firms deliver all sorts of groceries as well but its probably best left to the supermarket delivery firms.

These days the big companies deliver milk in the early hours.

 

[Peter Sarf]

These days the big companies deliver milk in the early hours.

Indeed I thought that the norm back in the 1960s-2000s was overnight but where we moved to in 2004 the deliveries became during the day !.

 

[oldman]

A deposit return scheme for plastic drinks bottles and cans is due to begin in October 2027. The regulations are to be debated this week and it will be interesting to see if the Tories who started the ball rolling will still support it.

Well, what a surprise! The regulations were approved yesterday and the Tories (including Badenoch) voted No.

To quote the minister:

Where are the former DEFRA Ministers, having been muscled out of this debate? Where is ... Robbie Moore, who, as late as April 2024, was speaking enthusiastically about how he was moving ahead with implementing a deposit return scheme for single-use drinks containers by October 2027? They are missing in action—the long-term view muscled out for a short-term hit of political opposition.

Debate here

 

[DelW]

Well, what a surprise! The regulations were approved yesterday and the Tories (including Badenoch) voted No.

To quote the minister:


Debate here

So Badenoch and her crew sink further into cynical, hypocritical political opportunism - never mind what will benefit the country and the environment, or even what will continue their own previous proposals - instead they just go for automatic knee-jerk opposition to any and all government proposals.
You'd think she'd learned her tactics under an unprincipled hypocrite and serial liar, like - say - Boris Johnson. Aah!

 

[PeterC]

Indeed I thought that the norm back in the 1960s-2000s was overnight but where we moved to in 2004 the deliveries became during the day !.

When I bought my first property in 1974 deliveries were round about breakfast time. We had to leave for work at 7:30 which meant that we were gone before the delivery about a quarter of the time.

 

[Yew]

The Coop probably wouldn’t have developed the compostable green carrier bags without the bag tax

Compostable Carrier bags were invented in the 1990's (source)

Are there? Our glass bottles sit in a box in the garage for months on end as the council doesn't believe in recycling glass. Maybe an enterprising company could set up a bottle purchasing scheme to come round and collect them?

Yes, it would be much nicer if you could put them out in a box, and the recycling lorry collected them and returned them for re-use. I'm still struggling to understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that you can have reusable bottles without a deposit scheme.

A big part of encouraging resuse is the fact that returning a crate of empty bottles means the full crate is $6 cheaper.

That might be required if returning bottles requires a reasonable investment of effort, but if bottles can be returned easily, then the need for any sort of financial incentive/coercion is removed. Having space on a bin lorry or milk-float style vehicle for crates of bottles to take back for re-use seems a lot simpler than having lots of reverse-vending machines everywhere, or paying shops to accept bottles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

Nobody said ecology was convenient and free.

But the reverse is not true, just because something is inconvenient and gives some groups of people a warm fuzzy feeling about "doing their bit", does not mean that it is actually effective. If we were looking at a bottle deposit scheme, we need to be sure that there are not more straightforward and convenient ways of achieving the same goal.

But the consequences of screwing up the planet also result in inconvenience and cost, maybe not initially but its coming home to roost eventually. Prevention is boring.

I think you're presenting a false dichotomy here, you seem to be suggesting that a bottle deposit scheme is the only solution, yet you have not justified why you feel that is true.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Compostable Carrier bags were invented in the 1990's (source)


Yes, it would be much nicer if you could put them out in a box, and the recycling lorry collected them and returned them for re-use. I'm still struggling to understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that you can have reusable bottles without a deposit scheme.

That might be required if returning bottles requires a reasonable investment of effort, but if bottles can be returned easily, then the need for any sort of financial incentive/coercion is removed. Having space on a bin lorry or milk-float style vehicle for crates of bottles to take back for re-use seems a lot simpler than having lots of reverse-vending machines everywhere, or paying shops to accept bottles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==


But the reverse is not true, just because something is inconvenient and gives some groups of people a warm fuzzy feeling about "doing their bit", does not mean that it is actually effective. If we were looking at a bottle deposit scheme, we need to be sure that there are not more straightforward and convenient ways of achieving the same goal.


I think you're presenting a false dichotomy here, you seem to be suggesting that a bottle deposit scheme is the only solution, yet you have not justified why you feel that is true.

I am not sure I am presenting a false dichotomy. I am not saying there is only one solution.
I would say generally ecological things need to come across as easy and convenient.
Ideally easier and more convenient than the un-ecological alternative. Probably cheaper too.
(so ULEZ puts a price on not being ecological - arguably).

In the case of glass bottles the deposit scheme can overcome peoples laziness. Perhaps not as well as it used to mind - given people seem to have more disposable income these days.
So it needs to be convenient and cheaper. People buy meals and have them delivered ready to eat that is not cheap but is easier.
The delivery person could be making money by taking the recyclables away - long shot and would only start to work if peoples domestic waste was pried into.
A charge for having recyclables in your domestic waste might make recycling more attractive. I live amongst people who just cannot be bothered.

 

[DelW]

Yes, it would be much nicer if you could put them out in a box, and the recycling lorry collected them and returned them for re-use. I'm still struggling to understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that you can have reusable bottles without a deposit scheme.

That might be required if returning bottles requires a reasonable investment of effort, but if bottles can be returned easily, then the need for any sort of financial incentive/coercion is removed. Having space on a bin lorry or milk-float style vehicle for crates of bottles to take back for re-use seems a lot simpler than having lots of reverse-vending machines everywhere, or paying shops to accept bottles.

That would be fine if everyone was willing to co-operate in returning them. Unfortunately the reality is that a proportion of the population simply discard bottles and cans as soon as they've finished them. Sometimes before - when I collect discards to recycle them, quite a few have some of the contents left, and occasionally they're unopened.

Even when no effort is needed, some people can't be bothered - quite often litter is scattered on the ground within a few feet of a bin. Around me the verges of country main roads are full of bottles, cans and food wrappers, all thrown from vehicles although they could easily have been carried back and disposed of properly.

Whether a deposit scheme will cure this habit I don't know, but the carrier bag charge definitely reduced the number of those being discarded.

 

[najaB]

Whether a deposit scheme will cure this habit I don't know, but the carrier bag charge definitely reduced the number of those being discarded

I believe that a deposit scheme will help reduce littering, but a direct comparison to the plastic bag charge doesn't work since that largely worked to stop people taking bags that they really didn't need.

Not something that translates to bottles or cans.

 

[DelW]

I believe that a deposit scheme will help reduce littering, but a direct comparison to the plastic bag charge doesn't work since that largely worked to stop people taking bags that they really didn't need.

Not something that translates to bottles or cans.

But it does suggest that a relatively small monetary incentive can persuade a significant number of people to change their behaviour. I hope that it's effective, otherwise the damage to our environment and wildlife, and waste of reusable resources, will continue unabated.

 

[najaB]

But it does suggest that a relatively small monetary incentive can persuade a significant number of people to change their behaviour.

Oh, I don't disagree. I just wanted to point out that it's easier to get people to stop doing something (taking carrier bags) than it is to get them to start doing something (taking their bottles back).

So it may well take longer to achieve the same level of change.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That would be fine if everyone was willing to co-operate in returning them. Unfortunately the reality is that a proportion of the population simply discard bottles and cans as soon as they've finished them. Sometimes before - when I collect discards to recycle them, quite a few have some of the contents left, and occasionally they're unopened.

Even when no effort is needed, some people can't be bothered - quite often litter is scattered on the ground within a few feet of a bin. Around me the verges of country main roads are full of bottles, cans and food wrappers, all thrown from vehicles although they could easily have been carried back and disposed of properly.

Whether a deposit scheme will cure this habit I don't know, but the carrier bag charge definitely reduced the number of those being discarded.

Try looking in the front gardens of homes that are by bus stops - often see quite a lot of litter in them. A friend of ours had a hedge full of litter. Ideal place for a camera and some enforcement.

Another round here is people park up with their local MsDonalds drive tru meal. Once finished (or part finished) the packaging is disposed of iout the car window.

Putting the registration number of the car on the food packaging might make follow ups more likely.

I believe that a deposit scheme will help reduce littering, but a direct comparison to the plastic bag charge doesn't work since that largely worked to stop people taking bags that they really didn't need.

Not something that translates to bottles or cans.

Now there is a thought. You want a drink well in future bring your own bottle and we will dispense the drink for you !.

Was it Costa who started selling re-usable cups ?.

I know a deposit scheme would work as many would scavenge the littering grounds for the soon to be valuable bottles. Myself and my friends did as children and finding one was quite a rare occurrence. That was either due to too much competition or because the purchaser of the loaded bottle was hanging on to it themselves for its deposit.

 

[PeterC]

Try looking in the front gardens of homes that are by bus stops - often see quite a lot of litter in them. A friend of ours had a hedge full of litter. Ideal place for a camera and some enforcement.

Another round here is people park up with their local MsDonalds drive tru meal. Once finished (or part finished) the packaging is disposed of iout the car window.

Putting the registration number of the car on the food packaging might make follow ups more likely.

Now there is a thought. You want a drink well in future bring your own bottle and we will dispense the drink for you !.

Was it Costa who started selling re-usable cups ?.

I know a deposit scheme would work as many would scavenge the littering grounds for the soon to be valuable bottles. Myself and my friends did as children and finding one was quite a rare occurrence. That was either due to too much competition or because the purchaser of the loaded bottle was hanging on to it themselves for its deposit.

I remember my cousin and I finding a box of pop bottles dumped in a country lane. We carefully hid them and ferried them to a sweet shop over the following few weeks.