Recycling (bottles etc) discussion

[najaB]

Because it's 10p you have been required to pay over and above the cost of the product.

Only if the price goes up when the charge is introduced. And, in any case, you can avoid paying it by bringing your own containers and emptying the product into them when you buy it.

 

[oldman]

Only if the price goes up when the charge is introduced. And, in any case, you can avoid paying it by bringing your own containers and emptying the product into them when you buy it.

In the abortive Scottish scheme, the planned charge was 20p and I can't imagine retailers absorbing it on products often costing less than £1. In my experience in mainland Europe retailers make it clear it's an add-on.

Anyway this binary stick-carrot argument is a bit pointless. It will be an inconvenience compared to using a recycling bin, but hopefully reduce the amount of litter.

 

[edwin_m]

How can "Bring this back and we'll give you 10p." be anything other than a carrot? It's the literal definition of a carrot: a monetary reward for an action you want to encourage.

Doesn't the literal definition of a carrot involve it being orange?

 

[BlueLeanie]

Once a fortnight, a council truck visits my home and collects glass, tetrapacs, yoghurt cartons, cardboard, newspaper, tins, cans, milk bottles, plastic bottles, plastic food trays, aluminium food trays, books, and magazines from a single bin. Batteries from a clear plastic bag on top, small electricals from a bag placed alongside, and fabric/clothing/shoes from a bag alongside.

I have 90% of my shopping delivered, sold my car as it was cheaper to take a taxi or hire a car when necessary.

How is it ever going to be a good idea for households, who are being encouraged to give up their cars and switch to active travel, to take their waste to a supermarket, simply because a tiny minority of people act badly?

 

[Yew]

Only if the price goes up when the charge is introduced. And, in any case, you can avoid paying it by bringing your own containers and emptying the product into them when you buy it.

I struggle to imagine for a moment that will be the case, given how much of our nation is owned by private equity firms.

 

[cactustwirly]

Maybe a levy on single use containers, - that would prompt a rapid technological response from the retailers.

There already is a plastic tax.
It's cheaper to use virgin plastic and pay the tax

 

[Bikeman78]

How is it ever going to be a good idea for households, who are being encouraged to give up their cars and switch to active travel, to take their waste to a supermarket, simply because a tiny minority of people act badly?

In an ideal world, whoever delivers the shopping would take away the empties when they make the next delivery.

 

[BlueLeanie]

In an ideal world, whoever delivers the shopping would take away the empties when they make the next delivery.

Yay, soiled, dirty , and mouldy food containers being taken away by your food delivery person.

My mother has just had a new mattress delivered, she couldn't understand why the company wouldn't take away her old one at the same time.

Delicately asking her if she really wanted her pristine new mattress next to the one picked up from the "yellow bin" residents or a bed-bug ridden mattress. Suddenly she understands.

 

[najaB]

Yay, soiled, dirty , and mouldy food containers being taken away by your food delivery person.

In a closed container, with a empty one provided at the same time.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yay, soiled, dirty , and mouldy food containers being taken away by your food delivery person.

My mother has just had a new mattress delivered, she couldn't understand why the company wouldn't take away her old one at the same time.

Delicately asking her if she really wanted her pristine new mattress next to the one picked up from the "yellow bin" residents or a bed-bug ridden mattress. Suddenly she understands.

The world is grubby. Best not to overthink it.

Regarding mattresses, from my observations, they tend to get dumped out the front of people's homes for weeks or months. The Council says they won't take them if they are wet. Really useful in Wales.

 

[DelW]

You have been consistently been discussing a false dichotomy, your exact words were "For those arguing that we don't need a deposit scheme as the present system is adequate", in which you try to present these as the only two positions; which is obviously untrue as there are a myriad of options available.

It's not a false dichotomy at all - that "myriad of options" can be divided into two categories, those with a financial incentive (e.g. a refundable deposit) and those without, that rely on the social conscience of consumers. My reference to "the present system" (which I should have pluralised) was meant to cover the whole range of non-deposit collection schemes, since AFAIK there are currently no deposit schemes operating in Britain.

Yes, but you can re-use bottles without having a deposit scheme, the two are not fundamentally intertwined. A simple scheme where each household is given a plastic bottle crate, and when it's full you put it out, and it goes on either a van, or a modified bin lorry. As bin lorry fleets are renewed, then those changes can happen naturally due to vehicles being replaced. That doesn't need massive agreements with supermarkets and shops (who no doubt will want some administration fees for running the scheme), not large fleets of reverse-vending machines (and the associated government IT infrastructure) to handle the bottles.

I'm in favour of re-use over recycling, indeed I buy milk and fruit juice in reusable glass bottles even though they cost me more than they would in single-use cartons.

But such schemes will only ever be used by a sub-set of those who currently recycle their containers anyway. It won't change the behaviour of those who discard their containers as soon as they're done with them - since they can't even be bothered to carry the empties as far as the next bin, they're very unlikely to take them back home and fit them into crates to put out for collection.

The problem of littering is never going to be solved by enforcement alone, as the chances of offenders being spotted, let alone punished, is negligible outwith urban centres. Here is today's haul of shame, smaller than the last but this was just from a short walk in a suburban area - an area that is well supplied with litter bins on almost every corner. On the walk that produced these, I can count at least 20 bins that I'd have passed. So why won't the buyers of these cans and bottles use them? Especially annoying are the ones that are thrown over fences, or into brambles, making them difficult or impossible to retrieve. A nearby railway embankment (behind chain link fences) is covered in hundreds of cans and bottles thrown over the fence within a half-mile length. If every one of those represented 20p, I'm sure there would be far fewer being added to them.

Yay, soiled, dirty , and mouldy food containers being taken away by your food delivery person.

Preferably they'd be washed-out, clean containers, just as they should be for recycling now.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Because it's 10p you have been required to pay over and above the cost of the product.

We'll hit you with the stick, then give you a way of being unhit.

Not a carrot!

But re-using washed out containers should save money so it would mean no extra cost on the freshly filled container.

In the abortive Scottish scheme, the planned charge was 20p and I can't imagine retailers absorbing it on products often costing less than £1. In my experience in mainland Europe retailers make it clear it's an add-on.

Anyway this binary stick-carrot argument is a bit pointless. It will be an inconvenience compared to using a recycling bin, but hopefully reduce the amount of litter.

Indeed and less inconvenient than the result of littering and extra energy use.

Once a fortnight, a council truck visits my home and collects glass, tetrapacs, yoghurt cartons, cardboard, newspaper, tins, cans, milk bottles, plastic bottles, plastic food trays, aluminium food trays, books, and magazines from a single bin. Batteries from a clear plastic bag on top, small electricals from a bag placed alongside, and fabric/clothing/shoes from a bag alongside.

I have 90% of my shopping delivered, sold my car as it was cheaper to take a taxi or hire a car when necessary.

How is it ever going to be a good idea for households, who are being encouraged to give up their cars and switch to active travel, to take their waste to a supermarket, simply because a tiny minority of people act badly?

Presumably you are rinsing out your used containers ?.
The delivery firm goes back to the supermarket empty. So it is no extra effort to take the empties back there.

 

[Bikeman78]

But re-using washed out containers should save money so it would mean no extra cost on the freshly filled container.

Glass or plastic bottles can be used many times over. I typically re-use a plastic bottle for months to take water or squash on journeys. It seems bizarre that it's cheaper to send bottles off to a recycling factory, melt them down and turn them into new bottles, rather than send them straight back to the Coke factory (for example), wash them, and put more Coke in them.

 

[The exile]

Glass or plastic bottles can be used many times over. I typically re-use a plastic bottle for months to take water or squash on journeys. It seems bizarre that it's cheaper to send bottles off to a recycling factory, melt them down and turn them into new bottles, rather than send them straight back to the Coke factory (for example), wash them, and put more Coke in them.

They’ll need sterilisation rather than washing, meaning that most plastic bottles here would be unsuitable. Compare Germany’s reusable plastic bottles with their single use ones.

 

[najaB]

They’ll need sterilisation rather than washing, meaning that most plastic bottles here would be unsuitable.

Yes and no. There are low-temperature steralisation methods, though they aren't as cheap as good old-fashioned denaturing proteins with heat.

 

[DelW]

BBC is reporting on a pilot return scheme in Northampton:

Northampton Litter Wombles to launch bottle recycling scheme - BBC News

People will be able to deposit cans and bottles in a "reverse vending machine" and get rewards.

www.bbc.co.uk

A litter-picking group is to introduce a deposit return scheme (DRS) that will offer rewards to people who recycle their cans and bottles.
The Northants Litter Wombles has teamed up with the University of Northampton and machine installer Trovr to put a reverse-vending machine on campus.
It will be in the Market Restaurant at the Waterside Campus and available for use by the general public as well as students.
Mark Watson, committee member for the Wombles, said bottles and cans account for up to 60% of the rubbish collected by the volunteer group.
"The amount of litter on the streets of the UK is a national disgrace," he said.
"If a DRS machine takes 90% of bottles and cans off the streets then that's going to have a huge effect on the litter we see thrown in hedges, rivers and on the street.

Nick Yeatman, chief executive at Trovr, said the trial meant the company could "test the technology" while educating the public and retailers about what to expect when the national rollout begins.
"Pollution is apocalyptic. DRS schemes that run across Europe and other places get their recycling rate up to 85-90% quite quickly," he said.
"It's massively beneficial from a pollution perspective; we need to clean up plastic pollution and it's down to us to make it happen."

 

[lyndhurst25]

A few years ago Morrisons trialed reverse vending machines for cans and plastic bottles in a few of its supermarkets. You got Morrisons More Points vouchers in return and I set out to on a mission to make my mum a More Points millionaire by collecting all the bottles I could from work, my shared flat and sometimes the street.

Problems with the scheme were:
- there was often a queue to use the machine.
- the machine broke down regularly. I suspect that many of the breakdowns were due to people putting unrinsed bottles in, gunging up the works with sticky pop residue. Then you had a couple on binbags of bottles in your car to take back home, leaving no room for your shopping.
- it only accepted bottles for products that Morrisons sold. For example, no Tesco lemonade bottles allowed. You could get around this by photocopying Morrisons barcodes and sticking them on the bottles. not that I’d ever condone such mischief…

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's not a false dichotomy at all - that "myriad of options" can be divided into two categories, those with a financial incentive (e.g. a refundable deposit) and those without, that rely on the social conscience of consumers. My reference to "the present system" (which I should have pluralised) was meant to cover the whole range of non-deposit collection schemes, since AFAIK there are currently no deposit schemes operating in Britain.


I'm in favour of re-use over recycling, indeed I buy milk and fruit juice in reusable glass bottles even though they cost me more than they would in single-use cartons.

But such schemes will only ever be used by a sub-set of those who currently recycle their containers anyway. It won't change the behaviour of those who discard their containers as soon as they're done with them - since they can't even be bothered to carry the empties as far as the next bin, they're very unlikely to take them back home and fit them into crates to put out for collection.

The problem of littering is never going to be solved by enforcement alone, as the chances of offenders being spotted, let alone punished, is negligible outwith urban centres. Here is today's haul of shame, smaller than the last but this was just from a short walk in a suburban area - an area that is well supplied with litter bins on almost every corner. On the walk that produced these, I can count at least 20 bins that I'd have passed. So why won't the buyers of these cans and bottles use them? Especially annoying are the ones that are thrown over fences, or into brambles, making them difficult or impossible to retrieve. A nearby railway embankment (behind chain link fences) is covered in hundreds of cans and bottles thrown over the fence within a half-mile length. If every one of those represented 20p, I'm sure there would be far fewer being added to them.

View attachment 173901


Preferably they'd be washed-out, clean containers, just as they should be for recycling now.

Here is my report today of how hard it will be to get the planet tidy. I love the idea of deposit schemes but the below will be a hard nut to crack.

Walking towards us on the pavement was a man in his twenties/thirties with a kid. I watched him screw up some packaging (thin plastic so not really re-usable) and throw it sideways into the hedge. I wanted to ask him if he knew what a bin looked like. One day I will make that mistake !. I really think a percentage of the human race do not deserve any respect. If an alien came to visit our planet then how would I justify the existence of our race on this planet.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here is my report today of how hard it will be to get the planet tidy. I love the idea of deposit schemes but the below will be a hard nut to crack.

Walking towards us on the pavement was a man in his twenties/thirties with a kid. I watched him screw up some packaging (thin plastic so not really re-usable) and throw it sideways into the hedge. I wanted to ask him if he knew what a bin looked like. One day I will make that mistake !. I really think a percentage of the human race do not deserve any respect. If an alien came to visit our planet then how would I justify the existence of our race on this planet.

As long as they are smaller than me (most people are), when i see someone do this I pick it up, take it to them and say “I’m so sorry, you dropped this, here you are”. If they answer back, (and subject to a dynamic risk assessment) I’ll drop the act and say “put it in the ***king bin”. That usually does the trick.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As long as they are smaller than me (most people are), when i see someone do this I pick it up, take it to them and say “I’m so sorry, you dropped this, here you are”. If they answer back, (and subject to a dynamic risk assessment) I’ll drop the act and say “put it in the ***king bin”. That usually does the trick.

GOOD - not just me then. I have rehearsed very very similar in my head and it will come out of my mouth one day.
We really should feel able to tell people off for bad behaviour.
I notice some cultures are very forthcoming with advice but here in the UK it seems those behaving poorly have far too many rights.

 

[zero]

If an alien came to visit our planet then how would I justify the existence of our race on this planet.

People seem to have the idea that alien visitors will be peace-loving hippy environmentalists but the way things are going on Earth, maybe the alien will be like Musk/Bezos and just want to exploit the planet as much as possible

 

[najaB]

People seem to have the idea that alien visitors will be peace-loving hippy environmentalists but the way things are going on Earth, maybe the alien will be like Musk/Bezos and just want to exploit the planet as much as possible

I think it was being used allegorically, rather than literally.

 

[styles]

GOOD - not just me then. I have rehearsed very very similar in my head and it will come out of my mouth one day.
We really should feel able to tell people off for bad behaviour.
I notice some cultures are very forthcoming with advice but here in the UK it seems those behaving poorly have far too many rights.

For me it depends where in the country I am to be perfectly honest.

When I was living in central London, I wouldn't dream of challenging the kind of people who brazenly throw bottles with dozens of people watching them do so. I've seen people walking down the street eating fried chicken and throwing the bones over their shoulder. These people are unlikely to be 'safe' to challenge I would suggest. But maybe that's just me.

The village I live in in Fife however, I've challenged people (usually kids admittedly) to pick things up. But then we have fewer people littering anyway, certainly not so brazenly with people around.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think it was being used allegorically, rather than literally.

Yes I was, to highlight how ashamed the human race should be.

But then thinking about it even more :-
If it were literally to be Alien(s) then I think they might not feel guilty about what they did to this unloved planet !.
Much like the way some colonisers colonised countries in past centuries.
But I feel a drifting off topic coming along.

For me it depends where in the country I am to be perfectly honest.

When I was living in central London, I wouldn't dream of challenging the kind of people who brazenly throw bottles with dozens of people watching them do so. I've seen people walking down the street eating fried chicken and throwing the bones over their shoulder. These people are unlikely to be 'safe' to challenge I would suggest. But maybe that's just me.

The village I live in in Fife however, I've challenged people (usually kids admittedly) to pick things up. But then we have fewer people littering anyway, certainly not so brazenly with people around.

Yes that is my feel, city vs village.
Also if it is just kids doing it then it follows that their behaviour is being nipped in the bud at a young enough age that they will take the criticism.
In places like Croydon the littering habit is amongst those who are getting too old to be told. I wonder if it was a failure to criticise when they were young enough or a different demographic that just will not take criticism. This comment walks straight into the path of the thread about noisy etc passengers on trains.