Railway Wages

[ole man]

I was reading a old rail magazine the other day, and there was a piece regarding the price of infrastructure renewal, projects etc etc.
Now it says in the UK we are a lot more expensive than our european counterparts, and a lot slower at track work.
Could this be down to the 'good' wage a average railway gets compared to his european friend?.
Is the rate of labour in the UK for railway workers to high?
Are network rail expensive?

 

[tirphil]

I was reading a old rail magazine the other day, and there was a piece regarding the price of infrastructure renewal, projects etc etc.
Now it says in the UK we are a lot more expensive than our european counterparts, and a lot slower at track work.
Could this be down to the 'good' wage a average railway gets compared to his european friend?.
Is the rate of labour in the UK for railway workers to high?
Are network rail expensive?

There is a saying that my dad always says and that is:

"To make the poor work harder you pay them less, but to make the rich work harder, you have to pay them more."

Is a guard/conductor rich or poor?

What about a trackworker?

In which bracket would you place McNulty?

 

[ole man]

All three in my eyes are on a good wage, obviously mcnugget will be on stupid money.
Is the wage of the above three to much compared with other railway workers in europe?

 

[Toots]

What an absolutely stupid question to ask.For a start,'Europe' is made up of several different countries all with different standards of living,different wage structures and different railway systems.In this country the railway itself also has many different wage structures and many different types of job with different levels of responsibility.Instead of seeking opinions on something you obviously know little about,why not seek the actual facts first and then form some kind of structured opinion based on those facts....

 

[ole man]

What an absolutely stupid question to ask.For a start,'Europe' is made up of several different countries all with different standards of living,different wage structures and different railway systems.In this country the railway itself also has many different wage structures and many different types of job with different levels of responsibility.Instead of seeking opinions on something you obviously know little about,why not seek the actual facts first and then form some kind of structured opinion based on those facts....

Im sorry but who are you to tell me what a stupid question is?
I'll ask whatever i want, if you don't like the queston don't look at it, and certainly don't answer it.
I merely asked if the cost of infrastructure renewals in the uk was more expensive then in europe,and are wages higher in the industry than europe.
Can't see why you've got on your high horse.

 

[Smudger105e]

Im sorry but who are you to tell me what a stupid question is?
I'll ask whatever i want, if you don't like the queston don't look at it, and certainly don't answer it.
I merely asked if the cost of infrastructure renewals in the uk was more expensive then in europe,and are wages higher in the industry than europe.
Can't see why you've got on your high horse.

I tend to agree, Toot's reply was rather agressive and patronising in my opinion.

And there is a saying something about "there's no such thing as a stupid question"...

 

[Toots]

'All three in my eyes are on a good wage',so c'mon then what wages are they on?.I can indeed say it's a stupid question (as you can ask it),because it's obvious you cannot compare like with like,the cost of materials,having to negotiate with so many different companies,contracting and subcontracting,differing rules on safety,how can you make a fair comparison?.
You seem to what to blame wages for the high cost of renewals,but when you look at the startling amounts to say build a 'bus' shelter on a station platform,the money certainly isn't going to the people actually building the shelter.....
I get on my high horse because people like you automically say it's wages,you mention we are slower at trackwork?,is that not because of lack of investment in suitable machinery,tampers and the like?,is it not because of the tendering and legal processes that have to be gone through before anyone even steps onto the track?,is it not because of the ridiculous amounts of money wasted on consultancies?.In this country we also have,quite correctly, a very stringent safety regime,yet we want lines to remain open to traffic whilst completing these renewals etc,this eats into budgets whereas in many cases,many european countries behave completely differently in all these respects,so I merely ask that rather that ask a loaded question you take the trouble to obtain a few facts first...

 

[ole man]

You seemed to have answered my question.
It is a forum where you ask question's and get answers, not every question on here will please you but that's just hard luck.
I was'nt blaming anyone or anything, i work on railway and am on a very good wage.
Your reply was what i was looking for, that wasn't difficult was it.

 

[notadriver]

I was reading a old rail magazine the other day, and there was a piece regarding the price of infrastructure renewal, projects etc etc.
Now it says in the UK we are a lot more expensive than our european counterparts, and a lot slower at track work.
Could this be down to the 'good' wage a average railway gets compared to his european friend?.
Is the rate of labour in the UK for railway workers to high?
Are network rail expensive?

This might answer your question :

http://www.connexionfrance.com/how-...r-police-train-driver-11111-news-article.html

 

[Toots]

You seemed to have answered my question.
It is a forum where you ask question's and get answers, not every question on here will please you but that's just hard luck.
I was'nt blaming anyone or anything, i work on railway and am on a very good wage.
Your reply was what i was looking for, that wasn't difficult was it.

If you has asked 'why are renewals so expensive?',that would have been a question,but you didn't,you went straight onto wages of trackworkers effectively trying to answer your own question and in doing so making a statement of fact with the next,ie renewals are so high because of Trackworkers wages,why are they so high?,when we hadn't even established the answer to your first question!.

 

[ole man]

My question had two parts, and yes wages was 1 off them, the other was are Network Rail expensive.
Would be intesting to have reply from someone who knows what percent wages take up on a renewal/project, and what percent materials cost.

 

[Toots]

But again,its who's wages?.As I've said you often have consultants charging huge amounts,you have Lawyers who seem to be invovled in every process and then there are a host of other people who also are getting wages for various 'services' before a shovel even touches the ballast,so it's a question of who's wages and which are pushing the average up to make renewals so expensive.Incidentally,it's not NWR that actually do renewals,it's normally contracted out.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Whilst superficially many people may think the railway offers good wages, the same people aren't always prepared or understanding of the arduous nature of the shifts, and of having serious restictions placed on your social and family life, not only through being at work when most people are socialising, but having to keep to strict bed times, and abstaining from even small amounts of drink before shifts.

Whilst in the current economic climate it's probably possible to get people to work for lower wages, in times of full employment it's a struggle to get enough quality staff prepared to suffer the restictions.

 

[Greenback]

I think that the original question could have been phrased better. It should have been put ina more open way, such as:

An article in XXXXX magazine suggested that the price of infrastructuire projects and renewals are higher in the UK than in Europe. What could be the reason or reasons for this? What factors affect the way we work in the UK as opposed to other countries?'.

I don't think that this sort of opening would have led to the response by Toots, which I think was a little aggressive.

In my view, there are many reasons why costs are higher here. You first need to look at the structure of the industry, and the way that NR operates. There is a lot of bureacracy involved with all of the interfaces NR has with other stakeholders. This cannot be cheap compared to countries where a greater element of vertical integration exists.

 

[Toots]

I think that the original question could have been phrased better.

I don't think that this sort of opening would have led to the response by Toots, which I think was a little aggressive.

.

I like to think of it as firm rather than aggresive.....

 

[notadriver]

Whilst superficially many people may think the railway offers good wages, the same people aren't always prepared or understanding of the arduous nature of the shifts, and of having serious restictions placed on your social and family life, not only through being at work when most people are socialising, but having to keep to strict bed times, and abstaining from even small amounts of drink before shifts.

Whilst in the current economic climate it's probably possible to get people to work for lower wages, in times of full employment it's a struggle to get enough quality staff prepared to suffer the restictions.

Bus drivers might argue they do safety critical job involving shift work and yet can only be paid £8 an hour!

 

[Toots]

They might,but if you look at the rule book a Driver has to know and compare that with what a Bus Driver needs to know they'd be wrong.It's a completely different scenario,a train Driver's training lasts a year,he has to know signals,line speeds and have a thorough route knowledge of every route he uses,this as well as all the safety aspects of every scenario that could arise and how to deal with them and the communication procedures that go along with the situations that crop up.

 

[Deerfold]

I like to think of it as firm rather than aggresive.....

I'd say it came across as very agressive - perhaps the question could have been better phrased but the OP seems keen to learn rather than having a fixed view on what the causes are - he jsut had a few suggestions.
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They might,but if you look at the rule book a Driver has to know and compare that with what a Bus Driver needs to know they'd be wrong.It's a completely different scenario,a train Driver's training lasts a year,he has to know signals,line speeds and have a thorough route knowledge of every route he uses,this as well as all the safety aspects of every scenario that could arise and how to deal with them and the communication procedures that go along with the situations that crop up.

You could argue that bus drivers should have far more training than they do, though I'm not suggesting as much as a train driver (and I think the minimum standards should certainly be higher). Of course this would make it even harder to run bus services...

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Is this going to be another thread where bus drivers try to goad train drivers into a race to the bottom?

 

[455driver]

I agree with Toots, the OPs question was loaded about why are our wages so high.

Round we go again! :roll:

 

[ole man]

My thread and i say he was to aggresive, you could of just said i don't understand your question, or rephrase it, but no he jumped on his high horse.
I never intended to have a go a railway workers wages, i asked if this was one reason why according to the magazine i read renewals are so high, railway wages are very good compared to other industries.
Your right about Network rail contracting the renewals out but they do the pricing, and are in charge, there is always a NR Rep on every job contractors do

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Bus drivers might argue they do safety critical job involving shift work and yet can only be paid £8 an hour!

True, but there are good reasons for that. The first one is that, to put it bluntly, it's not quite as skilled a job. The failure rate for converting someone from a car licence to a PSV licence is low. The amount of people who fail at any one stage of a railway reruitment and training is quite high, from the psycometric testing through to the pratical handing. Therefore, there is a smaller pool of eligable people. Simple supply and demand then comes into force.

Seondly, bus drivers wages ARE too low. You only have to look at how they struggle to recruit drivers all over the country. The answer? Import Eastern European drivers. If drivers were paid a wage commensurate with the skills and restrictions of the job they would not have this problem.

Regardless of one's views on immigration, the delibrate policy by Labour to encourage people to come and live here has had an effect on real wages, keeping them low in order to control inflation in the wider economy.

You can be for or against that policy, but what's undisputable is that it existed, and had a real effect, bus drivers being just one example.

 

[Greenback]

True, but there are good reasons for that. The first one is that, to put it bluntly, it's not quite as skilled a job. The failure rate for converting someone from a car licence to a PSV licence is low. The amount of people who fail at any one stage of a railway reruitment and training is quite high, from the psycometric testing through to the pratical handing. Therefore, there is a smaller pool of eligable people. Simple supply and demand then comes into force.

Seondly, bus drivers wages ARE too low. You only have to look at how they struggle to recruit drivers all over the country. The answer? Import Eastern European drivers. If drivers were paid a wage commensurate with the skills and restrictions of the job they would not have this problem.

Regardless of one's views on immigration, the delibrate policy by Labour to encourage people to come and live here has had an effect on real wages, keeping them low in order to control inflation in the wider economy.

You can be for or against that policy, but what's undisputable is that it existed, and had a real effect, bus drivers being just one example.

Sorry to go off topic, but I can't see how the expansion of the EU and the right of Eu citizens to work anywhere within the EU can be laid at Labour's door!

If ther eis a pool of labour willin gto work for lower rates of pay then private companies are going to take advantage of that, regardless of their origin. This is just the free market in action.

So, I will dispute your reading of the facts. Economic migrants have not been encouraged by any political party - they are a fact of life in the EU and this was caused by the decision to expand the member states to include Eastern Europe.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Rather than having a staged immigration policy for Eastern European countries, we were one of the few countries to allow Polish citizens entry straight away. If it would have been in conjunction with other countries, the effect would not have been as profound. Even Ed Milliband and Ed Balls have admitted this had the effect described

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jun/06/ed-balls-labour-immigration-wages

Also, lax border control has allowed a boom in the black market which again has as negative effect on real wages as legitimate companies have to keep costs down to compete with illegal workers.

As said, I'm not saying immigration was a good or bad thing, that's for another day. But I'd be staggered if (especially as the new Labour leadership has acknowledged it) anyone could really suggest that allowing the unresticted entry of Eastern Europeans has had anything other than a negative effect on real wages, one of those groups being bus drivers.

 

[Greenback]

Just because they got it wrong, doesn't mean that it was done deliberately to keep down wages for bus drivers or anyone else.

It is also quite a different thing to state that Labour encouraged people to come and live here, whereas the truth is that immigration from Eastern Europe was allowed, not encouraged.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Is that now a tacit admission that the real wages of Bus Drivers can be attributed to Labour, as you directly refuted the point originally?

As for allowed or encouraged, it probably will never be able to be demonstrably proved that Labour wanted this to happen. But to think that to be one of the only countries that allowed free entry from the start wouldn't encourage a large wave of immigration that would damange the living standards of a variety of (particularly) manual workers is at best monumentally naive. So naive, I would argue, that it is simply not credible.

But others will disagree. I'm not bothered, I've just hired a skilled Polish panelbeater to restore my classic motor for a very keen price!

 

[Greenback]

Is that now a tacit admission that the real wages of Bus Drivers can be attributed to Labour, as you directly refuted the point originally?

What I did was to dispute the so called indiputable fact that Labour had a deliberate policy to encourage people to come and live, and that it was this policy that has driven down wages.

I have never refuted that economic immigration has not had an effect on wages. Clearly it has, and will under the free market economy under which we live. It is basic supply and demand.

What the governemnt of the time is guilty of is seriously underestimating the numbers of people who would come to the UK to work from the new EU member states. This is quite different from the government of the day deliberately encouraging them to come here, so as to keep down costs in order to keep inflation low.

As for allowed or encouraged, it probably will never be able to be demonstrably proved that Labour wanted this to happen. But to think that to be being one of the only countries that allowed free entry from the start wouldn't encourage a large wave of immigration that would damange the living standards of a variety of (particularly) manual workers is at best monumentally naive. So naive, I would argue, that it is simply not credible.

That is your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to hold, and to express. But that does not eman it is right, or that others cannot hold equally valid opinions based on interpretations of the same basic set of facts. And it certainly doesn't make it indisputable!

But others will disagree. I'm not bothered, I've just hired a skilled Polish panelbeater to restore my classic motor for a very keen price!

An excellent example of the free market in action!

 

[ole man]

This topic is starting to cause quite a few heated arguements, there's a lot of aggression flying about.
And is swaying away from the original point, use the bus uk forum to talk about the dirty polluting, road hogging, ignorant drivers, this list could go on and on.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

What I did was to dispute the so called indiputable fact that Labour had a deliberate policy to encourage people to come and live, and that it was this policy that has driven down wages.

Sorry to go off topic, but I can't see how the expansion of the EU and the right of Eu citizens to work anywhere within the EU can be laid at Labour's door!

Seems pretty clear to me that you didn't initially blame Labour? If there is any other rational, credible explanation of why we pretty much stood alone in allowing the first influx of immigration from Eastern Europe than to control inflation I'm all ears, as surely a credible alternative thesis need to be put forward to dispute something? The only other one I can think of is monumental naivity or stupidity?

Oh well, as with most Labour policies, they end up benefit the comftably off at the expense of their core supporters!

 

[Greenback]

Seems pretty clear to me that you didn't initially blame Labour? If there is any other rational, credible explanation of why we pretty much stood alone in allowing the first influx of immigration from Eastern Europe than to control inflation I'm all ears, as surely a credible alternative thesis need to be put forward to dispute something? The only other one I can think of is monumental naivity or stupidity?

Oh well, as with most Labour policies, they end up benefit the comftably off at the expense of their core supporters!

What more can I say?! I am trying to make the point that it is not indisuptable that Labour deliberately encouraged immigrant so that wages, and inflation could be kept low.

The key words for me here are deliberately, and encouraged.

An equally valid point of view is that Labour were a useless government who made a lot of mistakes, mostly due to incomptetence. To me this is a far more credible interpretation, as it takes into account the other mistakes and decisions that they made during their term of office.

Yes, to me Labour were guilty of monumental stupidity in a number of areas, and I doubt they had the collective intelligence necessary to think up a deliberate policy of this type to control inflation!

I am not trying defend Labour in the slightest! All I am attempting to do is to point out that your view is not the only one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This topic is starting to cause quite a few heated arguements, there's a lot of aggression flying about.
And is swaying away from the original point, use the bus uk forum to talk about the dirty polluting, road hogging, ignorant drivers, this list could go on and on.

No aggression on my part, just a healthy debate!